Premiership financial issues

[Banquo]

Wasps are dead. Christ, what a day. Even when I knew we were fucked, I didn't think it would be quite like this.

Sad day for rugby. Darkest times the sport has seen.

Not sure about that- a host of excellent clubs went to the wall when professionalism was hamfistedly implemented in 96/97. Some never came back at all, and lots of playing opportunities were lost. Bad times indeed tho, even if it was a logically inevitable reckoning; feel massively for all the staff, and those who have striven in good faith to create something- some of whom have been let down by others with less good intent (not necessarily Wasps).

[Mikey Brown]

Beyond the obvious ones I wouldn't say no to West and Porter.

[Gloskarlos]

Bassett and a couple of others out in a Leam on Friday night. He was funnily wearing a deliveroo jacket and being very open about everything. Horrible for Wasps.

[Puja]

Wasps are dead. Christ, what a day. Even when I knew we were fucked, I didn't think it would be quite like this.

Sad day for rugby. Darkest times the sport has seen.

Not sure about that- a host of excellent clubs went to the wall when professionalism was hamfistedly implemented in 96/97. Some never came back at all, and lots of playing opportunities were lost. Bad times indeed tho, even if it was a logically inevitable reckoning; feel massively for all the staff, and those who have striven in good faith to create something- some of whom have been let down by others with less good intent (not necessarily Wasps).

Agreed - Richmond and London Scottish may be distant memories now, but they were both massive names of the "they surely can't be allowed to fail, they're too big and too historic" variety and they went from the Prem in the same season as well (albeit they died in the off-season, rather than mid). That brought the league from 14 to 12, which was necessary, but no consolation to their fans (nor was their "merger" with LIrish).

This one may be darker on the basis that we apparently learned nothing since 1999. Hopefully there will be actual plans put in place to prevent a future repeat in another 13 years.

Puja

[Stom]

Without my pithy comments based upon being a Quins fan...Wasps were actually the first club game I went to as an actual rugby fan. Back when they played at Loftus Road and they had the wonderful Trevor Leota.

So yeah, sad days indeed.

[Which Tyler]

This one may be darker on the basis that we apparently learned nothing since 1999. Hopefully there will be actual plans put in place to prevent a future repeat in another 13 years

Seems oddly specific

[Puja]

This one may be darker on the basis that we apparently learned nothing since 1999. Hopefully there will be actual plans put in place to prevent a future repeat in another 13 years

Seems oddly specific

Bless you for not immediately realising and mocking me for thinking 1999 was 13 years ago instead of 23.

Puja

[Stom]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-are-p ... -hamilton/

[Which Tyler]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-are-p ... -hamilton/

Yes, yes we are

[Puja]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-are-p ... -hamilton/

Yes, yes we are

Yes. The difference is that now we're also mad at Jim Hamilton for using the death of two rugby clubs for an insensitive hot take defending a cheat.

Granted, I would indeed prefer a cheat who loved a club over con-artists who wrecked a club, but that's a weird take for someone who is allegedly fond of Wray. I'm not sure I'd want my friends defending me with "not being as bad as Goldring and Whittingham".

Puja

[FKAS]

Big Jim isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer is he.

[Timbo]

I remember the first time I went to the Ricoh. My wife and I had a nice meal and drinks at one of the packed restaurants in the ground. Walked through the fan village where a live band was playing and kids everywhere, throwing balls about and organised activities. Club shop was heaving. Wasps beat Toulouse with a great try by Daly and a last minute winner from Robson in front of about 17k. Beale, Wade, Cippers, Launchbury all playing. I vividly remember thinking to myself as we filed out after the game, “if Wasps can’t make this work then I don’t know that professional rugby has much of a future”. It just seemed such a great set up on the surface. Sad day for English rugby.

[Scrumhead]

A sad day indeed and I think the knock-one effects are going to be felt for a long while.

Working on the basis that each club has an average of 25-30 proper first team players, that’s somewhere between 325 and 390 players to be divided between 11 (or probably 10) clubs. When that doesn’t include second string/squad players or academy products, it’s clear there’s going to be a significant amount of good players finding themselves unemployed.

Really worrying times for the sport.

[Adam_P]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-are-p ... -hamilton/

Yes, yes we are

Yes. The difference is that now we're also mad at Jim Hamilton for using the death of two rugby clubs for an insensitive hot take defending a cheat.

Granted, I would indeed prefer a cheat who loved a club over con-artists who wrecked a club, but that's a weird take for someone who is allegedly fond of Wray. I'm not sure I'd want my friends defending me with "not being as bad as Goldring and Whittingham".

Puja

I think Jim is completely missing the point that the cheating carried out by Wray and Saracens is what has led to the over inflated wages (in relation to the money in the game) being demanded by top players now - a big reason that these clubs have gone to the wall.

[Banquo]

Sad day for rugby. Darkest times the sport has seen.

Not sure about that- a host of excellent clubs went to the wall when professionalism was hamfistedly implemented in 96/97. Some never came back at all, and lots of playing opportunities were lost. Bad times indeed tho, even if it was a logically inevitable reckoning; feel massively for all the staff, and those who have striven in good faith to create something- some of whom have been let down by others with less good intent (not necessarily Wasps).

Agreed - Richmond and London Scottish may be distant memories now, but they were both massive names of the "they surely can't be allowed to fail, they're too big and too historic" variety and they went from the Prem in the same season as well (albeit they died in the off-season, rather than mid). That brought the league from 14 to 12, which was necessary, but no consolation to their fans (nor was their "merger" with LIrish).

This one may be darker on the basis that we apparently learned nothing since 1999. Hopefully there will be actual plans put in place to prevent a future repeat in another 13 years.

Puja

Ironic in the light of the thread referencing the difficulties in having top teams in the north that you reference those teams, when so many 1st class clubs (in old money ) either disappeared or fell away in the north......

[Puja]

Not sure about that- a host of excellent clubs went to the wall when professionalism was hamfistedly implemented in 96/97. Some never came back at all, and lots of playing opportunities were lost. Bad times indeed tho, even if it was a logically inevitable reckoning; feel massively for all the staff, and those who have striven in good faith to create something- some of whom have been let down by others with less good intent (not necessarily Wasps).

Agreed - Richmond and London Scottish may be distant memories now, but they were both massive names of the "they surely can't be allowed to fail, they're too big and too historic" variety and they went from the Prem in the same season as well (albeit they died in the off-season, rather than mid). That brought the league from 14 to 12, which was necessary, but no consolation to their fans (nor was their "merger" with LIrish).

This one may be darker on the basis that we apparently learned nothing since 1999. Hopefully there will be actual plans put in place to prevent a future repeat in another 13 years.

Puja

Ironic in the light of the thread referencing the difficulties in having top teams in the north that you reference those teams, when so many 1st class clubs (in old money ) either disappeared or fell away in the north......

Fair, although the likes of Orrell and West Hartlepool fell out of the top division on results and died in the lower divisions. Victims of sporting failure before monetary failure, if you will. Richmond and LScottish were the only ones that went bang from the top division, which is a more relevant comparison to Wasps and Worcester.

Puja

[Danno]

Yes, yes we are

Yes. The difference is that now we're also mad at Jim Hamilton for using the death of two rugby clubs for an insensitive hot take defending a cheat.

Granted, I would indeed prefer a cheat who loved a club over con-artists who wrecked a club, but that's a weird take for someone who is allegedly fond of Wray. I'm not sure I'd want my friends defending me with "not being as bad as Goldring and Whittingham".

Puja

I think Jim is completely missing the point that the cheating carried out by Wray and Saracens is what has led to the over inflated wages (in relation to the money in the game) being demanded by top players now - a big reason that these clubs have gone to the wall.

But Jim was looked after so all is well ~.~

[16th man]

Has there been any announcement on what is going to happen to the points teams have taken from Wasps and Worcester yet, or what they're going to do about the fixture list?

Desperately need to keep the season on the rails to keep the gate receipts coming in and not void the BT deal terms.

[twitchy]

Incredibly sad for wasps fans. Like others haver said, I didn't think it would reach this point either.

[Banquo]

Agreed - Richmond and London Scottish may be distant memories now, but they were both massive names of the "they surely can't be allowed to fail, they're too big and too historic" variety and they went from the Prem in the same season as well (albeit they died in the off-season, rather than mid). That brought the league from 14 to 12, which was necessary, but no consolation to their fans (nor was their "merger" with LIrish).

This one may be darker on the basis that we apparently learned nothing since 1999. Hopefully there will be actual plans put in place to prevent a future repeat in another 13 years.

Puja

Ironic in the light of the thread referencing the difficulties in having top teams in the north that you reference those teams, when so many 1st class clubs (in old money ) either disappeared or fell away in the north......

Fair, although the likes of Orrell and West Hartlepool fell out of the top division on results and died in the lower divisions. Victims of sporting failure before monetary failure, if you will. Richmond and LScottish were the only ones that went bang from the top division, which is a more relevant comparison to Wasps and Worcester.

Puja

....tbh that was kind of my original point- there were many more clubs who were deemed 1st class, who played each other and the current prem teams; the top league was created (with varying promotion rules as now) and previously top tier clubs became much much lesser, much much quicker; and it was monetary as they simply couldn't buy in players like Richmond tried to. Those were darker times imo, as over a three year period or so, clubs like Wakefield disappeared (and Gosforth, albeit taken over), clubs like Harrogate, Morley, Roundhay became hugely diminished (chasing the Leeds Tykes dream), ditto, Waterloo, Liverpool St Helens, Manchester (who had a go at the big time but ran out of cash), Broughton Park, Fylde Moseley....huge list. I do take your point, but we were discussing dark days

(And alongside their diminution came a reduction in their junior sides- Rosslyn Park used to run 9 sides, its now 3, I think; its a parallel problem admittedly)

[Puja]

Rumours that alterations to the back end of the season's fixture list are under discussion (and that one proposal has already been shot down by some clubs). Not sure why anyone would not want to take the games out of international weekends where possible.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Rumours that alterations to the back end of the season's fixture list are under discussion (and that one proposal has already been shot down by some clubs). Not sure why anyone would not want to take the games out of international weekends where possible.

Puja

Which highlights the biggest problem with PRL. Paralysis by democracy. They’re so busy voting on any and every chance, with a ridiculously high number of votes required for change, that nothing ever happens. Massie-Taylor looks like he knows his onions, time to let him prove it.

[16th man]

Various news sources, and talking heads who should know better, appear to be trying to make the whole situation worse by spreading rumours about other clubs struggling, backed up by some fairly basic numbers on debt, without any apparent understanding that its a damn sight more complex than a simple headline number, and that damaging confidence even further is potentially even more damaging to people trying to address the problem.

[Puja]

Various news sources, and talking heads who should know better, appear to be trying to make the whole situation worse by spreading rumours about other clubs struggling, backed up by some fairly basic numbers on debt, without any apparent understanding that its a damn sight more complex than a simple headline number, and that damaging confidence even further is potentially even more damaging to people trying to address the problem.

Bang on. The risk is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy where "everyone knows" that LIrish are on the brink and, because of that, they're refused routine refinancing which then actually does put them in trouble.

Puja

[FKAS]

It does currently feel like people with fingers far from the pulse are currently making statements to try and sound in the know and ahead of the breaking news. I'm calling attention grabbing BS personally but it does have serious consequences for those considering investing in the Prem.