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Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:34 pm
by Puja
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:26 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:40 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:21 pm
Can’t believe you’re trying to defend it. He went full pelt and got there too early which means he could’ve not gone full pelt and got there at the correct time.
He got there early? Completely disagree. He gets there early if he knows for a fact that Adams is going to stop and jump in the air. If he doesn't go that quickly, Adams doesn't jump and just catches the ball a metre closer to the touchline to cross untouched.
Puja
It was clumsy and totally worthy of a yellow card.
Oh, absolutely. It's a yellow and penalty all day long - not disagreeing with that. I'm simply saying that Steward has got into a no-win scenario - he has to run top speed which makes him unable to stop and clumsy, but if he slows to a controllable speed, Adams just catches the ball without breaking stride and goes over untouched.
Puja
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:37 pm
by Sandydragon
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:34 pm
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:26 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:40 pm
He got there early? Completely disagree. He gets there early if he knows for a fact that Adams is going to stop and jump in the air. If he doesn't go that quickly, Adams doesn't jump and just catches the ball a metre closer to the touchline to cross untouched.
Puja
It was clumsy and totally worthy of a yellow card.
Oh, absolutely. It's a yellow and penalty all day long - not disagreeing with that. I'm simply saying that Steward has got into a no-win scenario - he has to run top speed which makes him unable to stop and clumsy, but if he slows to a controllable speed, Adams just catches the ball without breaking stride and goes over untouched.
Puja
Yeah, too much ground to cover.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:39 pm
by Mellsblue
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:34 pm
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:26 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:40 pm
He got there early? Completely disagree. He gets there early if he knows for a fact that Adams is going to stop and jump in the air. If he doesn't go that quickly, Adams doesn't jump and just catches the ball a metre closer to the touchline to cross untouched.
Puja
It was clumsy and totally worthy of a yellow card.
Oh, absolutely. It's a yellow and penalty all day long - not disagreeing with that. I'm simply saying that Steward has got into a no-win scenario - he has to run top speed which makes him unable to stop and clumsy, but if he slows to a controllable speed, Adams just catches the ball without breaking stride and goes over untouched.
Puja
But he got there too early which means he didn’t need to run at top speed…
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:49 pm
by Scrumhead
jngf wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:10 pm
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:05 pm
jngf wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:34 pm
First choice backrow for me J Willis or Ludlam at 6, Earl at 7, Billy at 8 - if T Curry can dislodge any of these on form fair enough but he should not start on reputation alone, the bar for flanker, especially in an attacking context has been raised from the days of the kamikaze kids
Why do you hate on Curry so much despite every possible bit of evidence to the contrary?
Earl had a good game against a poor Welsh side. I’m not sure that quite stands against any of the others’ achievements for England.
Why do you like to characterise me as hating him?, which I don’t, I just don’t see him as quite as a good a player as you do. He’s not as good a fetcher as J Willis, not as good an carrier:attacker as Ludlam or Earl and not quite as good a defender ( or open side ) as Underhill imo. As your stats showed he does have a high balanced range of qualities but I maintain he’s not objectively the best player in any single area of backrow play. I’ll concede he’s certainly a better 6 than Lawes and I hope we can at least agree on that?
Simply because you question Curry’s place at every opportunity.
Your rationale is actually pretty fair. I’d agree he’s not as good a jackal as Willis (although not much in it), not as good a carrier/attacker than Ludlam or Earl, but I disagree on the defensive piece. Maybe he’s not as dominant a tackler as Underhill (moot point considering he’s not in the squad), but defence includes a lot more than that and the volume of Curry’s involvements in slowing the ball and being a pain in the ass to play against make him as good as, possibly better than Underhill as a defender or any of the other flankers we have.
Imagine it’s Top Trumps … Curry’s 80/100 across all of the relevant categories whilst the others might have 85 for some areas but 60 for others. Make sense?
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:51 pm
by Puja
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:39 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:34 pm
Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:26 pm
It was clumsy and totally worthy of a yellow card.
Oh, absolutely. It's a yellow and penalty all day long - not disagreeing with that. I'm simply saying that Steward has got into a no-win scenario - he has to run top speed which makes him unable to stop and clumsy, but if he slows to a controllable speed, Adams just catches the ball without breaking stride and goes over untouched.
Puja
But he got there too early which means he didn’t need to run at top speed…
And if Josh Adams doesn't stop and jump, and instead keeps drifting wide and catches on run, he gets there too late. Adams does a brilliant job, btw.
Puja
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:57 pm
by FKAS
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:51 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:39 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:34 pm
Oh, absolutely. It's a yellow and penalty all day long - not disagreeing with that. I'm simply saying that Steward has got into a no-win scenario - he has to run top speed which makes him unable to stop and clumsy, but if he slows to a controllable speed, Adams just catches the ball without breaking stride and goes over untouched.
Puja
But he got there too early which means he didn’t need to run at top speed…
And if Josh Adams doesn't stop and jump, and instead keeps drifting wide and catches on run, he gets there too late. Adams does a brilliant job, btw.
Puja
You have to jump and try to take the space. That's pretty much the only option but not easy to get a good leap when at full tilt trying to track the flight of the ball.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:00 pm
by Mellsblue
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:51 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:39 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:34 pm
Oh, absolutely. It's a yellow and penalty all day long - not disagreeing with that. I'm simply saying that Steward has got into a no-win scenario - he has to run top speed which makes him unable to stop and clumsy, but if he slows to a controllable speed, Adams just catches the ball without breaking stride and goes over untouched.
Puja
But he got there too early which means he didn’t need to run at top speed…
And if Josh Adams doesn't stop and jump, and instead keeps drifting wide and catches on run, he gets there too late. Adams does a brilliant job, btw.
Puja
Well he’s then got to recognise the change in Adams’ line and speed up to meet him as he catches the ball. He’s an allegedly world class fullback and that was as clumsy as hell, if I’m being nice.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:03 pm
by Puja
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:00 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:51 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:39 pm
But he got there too early which means he didn’t need to run at top speed…
And if Josh Adams doesn't stop and jump, and instead keeps drifting wide and catches on run, he gets there too late. Adams does a brilliant job, btw.
Puja
Well he’s then got to recognise the change in Adams’ line and speed up to meet him as he catches the ball. He’s an allegedly world class fullback and that was as clumsy as hell, if I’m being nice.
The only way he can reach the corner with Adams catching the ball without jumping is by going top speed. He's been left too much to do by over-narrow defence and a perfectly judged kick. He can either run top speed and make a tackle on Adams going for the corner, or slow down enough to be able to adapt when Adams jumps. He cannot cover both, no matter how easy it looks in slow motion.
Puja
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:13 pm
by Mellsblue
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:03 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:00 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:51 pm
And if Josh Adams doesn't stop and jump, and instead keeps drifting wide and catches on run, he gets there too late. Adams does a brilliant job, btw.
Puja
Well he’s then got to recognise the change in Adams’ line and speed up to meet him as he catches the ball. He’s an allegedly world class fullback and that was as clumsy as hell, if I’m being nice.
The only way he can reach the corner with Adams catching the ball without jumping is by going top speed. He's been left too much to do by over-narrow defence and a perfectly judged kick. He can either run top speed and make a tackle on Adams going for the corner, or slow down enough to be able to adapt when Adams jumps. He cannot cover both, no matter how easy it looks in slow motion.
Puja
I’ve watched it in full speed repeatedly.
We obvs will never agree but I think he knows he has to go full tilt as he’s slow for a back three player and doesn’t have the gas the make up ground if needs be. Ultimately, he’s a test player whose been binned and the oppo still scored the try so it was shoite: he’s decided to run head long to the point Adams would jump to catch it, completely misjudged the speed/parabola of the ball and farked up. Pretty much worst case scenario other than ensuring Adams lands face first.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:15 pm
by jngf
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:49 pm
jngf wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:10 pm
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:05 pm
Why do you hate on Curry so much despite every possible bit of evidence to the contrary?
Earl had a good game against a poor Welsh side. I’m not sure that quite stands against any of the others’ achievements for England.
Why do you like to characterise me as hating him?, which I don’t, I just don’t see him as quite as a good a player as you do. He’s not as good a fetcher as J Willis, not as good an carrier:attacker as Ludlam or Earl and not quite as good a defender ( or open side ) as Underhill imo. As your stats showed he does have a high balanced range of qualities but I maintain he’s not objectively the best player in any single area of backrow play. I’ll concede he’s certainly a better 6 than Lawes and I hope we can at least agree on that?
Simply because you question Curry’s place at every opportunity.
Your rationale is actually pretty fair. I’d agree he’s not as good a jackal as Willis (although not much in it), not as good a carrier/attacker than Ludlam or Earl, but I disagree on the defensive piece. Maybe he’s not as dominant a tackler as Underhill (moot point considering he’s not in the squad), but defence includes a lot more than that and the volume of Curry’s involvements in slowing the ball and being a pain in the ass to play against make him as good as, possibly better than Underhill as a defender or any of the other flankers we have.
Imagine it’s Top Trumps … Curry’s 80/100 across all of the relevant categories whilst the others might have 85 for some areas but 60 for others. Make sense?
Indeed, I don’t think we’re as far apart on this as one might think at first glance - and I definitely think Curry has ‘dog’ possibly the most of any of the England squad - he certainly doesn’t blow hot and cold like some forwards and backs do. If I have an issue with any of the backrow it’s Lawes being assumed a starter in the backrow.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:28 pm
by Mellsblue
Watching for the umpteenth time on this twatter clip with the ability to easily speed up, slow down etc etc and he’s not running full speed, he’s just completely fecked up. The catch is on the five yard line so let him land and back yourself to defend that sliver of pitch. Ultimately he’s got himself too narrow, we’re more than numbered up inside him, and completely lost where Adams is positioned.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:38 pm
by Mellsblue
Still rewatching! He looks for Adams and then does seem
to go for where Adams is stood but Adams is stood still on the touchline so was bound to accelerate towards the ball to affect the catch. I still think he needs to slow down and back himself to defend five yards. Just moronic, imo.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:48 pm
by Puja
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:28 pm
Watching for the umpteenth time on this twatter clip with the ability to easily speed up, slow down etc etc and he’s not running full speed, he’s just completely fecked up. The catch is on the five yard line so let him land and back yourself to defend that sliver of pitch. Ultimately he’s got himself too narrow, we’re more than numbered up inside him, and completely lost where Adams is positioned.
Watching again on that clip and you are absolutely correct. Apologies - was mistaken on live viewing.
Puja
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:49 pm
by FKAS
Goode is right about Adams holding his head though. That and the two or three Welsh players that came up to the ref demanding a card whilst he was deliberating was pathetic.
I'd like to see refs take a harsher stance on players continually interrupting them whilst they've said they are reviewing.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:51 pm
by Insouciant
FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:49 pm
Goode is right about Adams holding his head though. That and the two or three Welsh players that came up to the ref demanding a card whilst he was deliberating was pathetic.
I'd like to see refs take a harsher stance on players continually interrupting them whilst they've said they are reviewing.
Yup, "It's not soccer..." as someone once said
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:53 pm
by Mellsblue
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 6:26 pm
16th man wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 6:19 pm
Hit our jumper so that's immediately a 100% improvement on last week.
Jamie George is our most precious player right now. We could lose anyone else to injury and there'd be someone else we could bring in, but lose George and it's all over.
Puja
Slobbering Bloodhound agrees with you.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:11 pm
by Banquo
Smacked Bottom for the coach, but he needs more time obvs. To work with these inadequate and quite dim players.
Faz isnt very good and a red card waiting to happen shock.
Bad times.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:12 pm
by Banquo
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:48 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:28 pm
Watching for the umpteenth time on this twatter clip with the ability to easily speed up, slow down etc etc and he’s not running full speed, he’s just completely fecked up. The catch is on the five yard line so let him land and back yourself to defend that sliver of pitch. Ultimately he’s got himself too narrow, we’re more than numbered up inside him, and completely lost where Adams is positioned.
Watching again on that clip and you are absolutely correct. Apologies - was mistaken on live viewing.
Puja
its not even a debate tbh.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:13 pm
by Danno
I think I've had enough of Sinister Bathtoaster.
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:14 pm
by Puja
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:12 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:48 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:28 pm
Watching for the umpteenth time on this twatter clip with the ability to easily speed up, slow down etc etc and he’s not running full speed, he’s just completely fecked up. The catch is on the five yard line so let him land and back yourself to defend that sliver of pitch. Ultimately he’s got himself too narrow, we’re more than numbered up inside him, and completely lost where Adams is positioned.
Watching again on that clip and you are absolutely correct. Apologies - was mistaken on live viewing.
Puja
its not even a debate tbh.
Hence me acknowledging that I was wrong.
Puja
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:18 pm
by Banquo
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:14 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:12 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:48 pm
Watching again on that clip and you are absolutely correct. Apologies - was mistaken on live viewing.
Puja
its not even a debate tbh.
Hence me acknowledging that I was wrong.
Puja
after a lengthy debate
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:34 pm
by francoisfou
World Rugby, or whoever comes up with the decision on the length of the ban, will almost surely bottle it and find some totally unmerited “mitigating circumstances”, but my question is, will Slack Bottom have the balls to deal with his captain fittingly and push him down the pecking order of 10s and appoint Ford as captain as he showed the cool head when it was absolutely necessary?
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:44 pm
by Adam_P
francoisfou wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:34 pm
will Slack Bottom have the balls to deal with his captain fittingly and push him down the pecking order of 10s and appoint Ford as captain as he showed the cool head when it was absolutely necessary?
Absolutely no chance in hell
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:56 pm
by Puja
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:18 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:14 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:12 pm
its not even a debate tbh.
Hence me acknowledging that I was wrong.
Puja
after a lengthy debate
After seeing a replay for the first time since watching the match and realising that I'd misseen it on first viewing. Christ, no wonder no-one admits they're wrong on the internet!
Puja
Re: England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 11:04 pm
by Banquo
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:56 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:18 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:14 pm
Hence me acknowledging that I was wrong.
Puja
after a lengthy debate
After seeing a replay for the first time since watching the match and realising that I'd misseen it on first viewing. Christ, no wonder no-one admits they're wrong on the internet!
Puja
..or, when in a hole...
watch the replay?