Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:10 am
You’ve missed the point but I’ve ‘known’ you long enough to know you’ve done it on purpose to stop us repeating many previous exchanges

You’ve missed the point but I’ve ‘known’ you long enough to know you’ve done it on purpose to stop us repeating many previous exchanges
He's right.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:08 am Per Dawson on BBC website:
"This is the most prepared underperforming England side there has ever been going into a World Cup.
We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.
It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.
They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."
There is a case but it's repeating what has happened a fair few times since 2003, so far with zero success.fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:29 amHe's right.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:08 am Per Dawson on BBC website:
"This is the most prepared underperforming England side there has ever been going into a World Cup.
We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.
It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.
They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."
Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.
But we're stuck with him for the WC. Best case scenario is that we find our feet in France, play some semi decent rugby, get through the pool stage and contest a QF in better shape than we are currently in. It might come together.....it might.
After that, well who knows. Doubt the RFU would be keen to jettison their preferred coach in under a year and there is a case for seeing how the next 6N's pan out before making a definitive judgement.
Just picking up on two points.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:39 amYou may be right.Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:37 amSack the head coach again! I think he needs time to get his coaching team together - Wigglesworth is approx third choice, the scrum coach is at least second choice and the legend that is Aled Walters will only just be finding his feet. All his coaches are very inexperienced.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:10 am
Agreed. I liked what SB said originally about clarity of purpose. It seemed correct intimation about what was wrong under Jones. Unfortunately, SB has proven incapable of putting his own words into action. It is not a question of whether he should go, just a question of when.
The biggest irony about yesterday's defeat is that Fiji's head coach was appointed after SB.
If we do sack him we go back to the question posed when you wanted Jones gone: who do you appoint in his place?
Unfortunately, I think SB has indicated lack of judgement and an inability to inspire the group (coaches plus players). The former failing I base on selection to an extent, especially with getting it wrong over Dombrandt/Billy V. We can have our pet theories on player A v player B but a head coach has all the information, advice and personal contact such that judgment calls should be right more often than not.
As for inspiring the group, he has failed in so fundamental an issue as following his own message on clarity. Falling back on the familiar i.e. coaching assistance from Leicester etc. maybe a sign of weakness. Either way, it has failed.
Yes, we would again be asking who? But, I think it is time for the main board of the RFU to do a root and branch overhaul with, say, a 6 month review of everything involved. A decision immediately after the RWC to give SB that temporary reprieve or to appoint another temporary guy needs more in-depth knowledge than can possibly be available to us.
What is essential, though, IMO, is to have a new system in place three and a half years ahead of the next RWC. The very worst scenario is letting SB blunder on, get nowhere for a couple of 6Ns and then replace him. A 6 month temporary stint while a review takes place, gives him a chance but signs of fundamental improvement would be essential to even leave his name on the table. I've said before over several eras that if I was carrying out appointment interviews, I'd require full long-term plans as detailed submissions from candidates. I'd be happy for SB to be part of that process if he had achieved improvement in the meantime.
I know we are not blessed with stacks of gifted players but I think if Sean Edwards was appointed tomorrow, we'd be a damned sight harder to beat within a couple of training sessions. Pie in the sky, of course, but it highlights how bad preparation/togetherness seems to be at present.
Regardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:29 amHe's right.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:08 am Per Dawson on BBC website:
We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.
It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.
They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."
Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.
pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:36 pmRegardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:29 amHe's right.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:08 am Per Dawson on BBC website:
We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.
It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.
They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."[/i]
Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.
How will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them? Yes, the players are not world beaters but is there a single one who is on top form? Steward has looked solid in past games but even he has gone off.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:36 pmRegardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:29 amHe's right.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:08 am Per Dawson on BBC website:
We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.
It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.
They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."
Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.
If the answer is SCW, you have asked the wrong question.Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:23 pm Right.
I think I may have enjoyed a little more wine with lunch than I should have.
Get on the phone to SCW. Give him carte blanche to review and reform the RFU, the board, the academies, the amateur system, semi-pro and professional levels - mens, women's and sevens.
Got until December to come up with a blueprint, until April to enact them, and negotiate with the clubs, play hardball, especially with the development pathways.
You did, in 2016-17.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:51 pmHow will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them?pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:36 pmRegardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:29 am
He's right.
Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.
What if the question is ‘Who has made a lucrative 20 year career out of the phrase t-cup without having achieved anything of note during that period?’?Puja wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:01 pmIf the answer is SCW, you have asked the wrong question.Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:23 pm Right.
I think I may have enjoyed a little more wine with lunch than I should have.
Get on the phone to SCW. Give him carte blanche to review and reform the RFU, the board, the academies, the amateur system, semi-pro and professional levels - mens, women's and sevens.
Got until December to come up with a blueprint, until April to enact them, and negotiate with the clubs, play hardball, especially with the development pathways.
Puja
Possibly. At the time loads of posters on this board kept suggesting the bubble would burst and quite a few talked about luck. Perhaps that winning streak gave a false perspective. The same head coach hardly ever got the best out of the team/the players thereafter. But that's history now. The irony is that some of the players are still there now 7-8 years older and not playing up to their experience.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:04 pmYou did, in 2016-17.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:51 pmHow will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them?pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:36 pm
Regardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?
Or 7-8 years later there's still not an alternative 23 that's better.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:21 pmPossibly. At the time loads of posters on this board kept suggesting the bubble would burst and quite a few talked about luck. Perhaps that winning streak gave a false perspective. The same head coach hardly ever got the best out of the team/the players thereafter. But that's history now. The irony is that some of the players are still there now 7-8 years older and not playing up to their experience.
I don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:28 pmOr 7-8 years later there's still not an alternative 23 that's better.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:21 pmPossibly. At the time loads of posters on this board kept suggesting the bubble would burst and quite a few talked about luck. Perhaps that winning streak gave a false perspective. The same head coach hardly ever got the best out of the team/the players thereafter. But that's history now. The irony is that some of the players are still there now 7-8 years older and not playing up to their experience.
Most of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?Stom wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:34 pmI don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:28 pmOr 7-8 years later there's still not an alternative 23 that's better.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:21 pm
Possibly. At the time loads of posters on this board kept suggesting the bubble would burst and quite a few talked about luck. Perhaps that winning streak gave a false perspective. The same head coach hardly ever got the best out of the team/the players thereafter. But that's history now. The irony is that some of the players are still there now 7-8 years older and not playing up to their experience.
Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player
I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.
I can get behind this. Some maybe happening already #justsayingWhich Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:23 pm Right.
. Give someone carte blanche to review and reform the RFU, the board, the academies, the amateur system, semi-pro and professional levels - mens, women's and sevens.
Got until December to come up with a blueprint, until April to enact them, and negotiate with the clubs, play hardball, especially with the development pathways.
If nobody has been more effective than Faz it's probably because no other has been given the chance.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:46 pmMost of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?Stom wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:34 pmI don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:28 pm
Or 7-8 years later there's still not an alternative 23 that's better.
Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player
I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.
Were they not given a chance in the last two tests at least?Spiffy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 5:41 pmIf nobody has been more effective than Faz it's probably because no other has been given the chance.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:46 pmMost of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?Stom wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:34 pm
I don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...
Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player
I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.
Dawson wrote "Everything looks a bit cosy".fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:29 amHe's right.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:08 am Per Dawson on BBC website:
"This is the most prepared underperforming England side there has ever been going into a World Cup.
We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.
It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.
They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."
Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.
But we're stuck with him for the WC. Best case scenario is that we find our feet in France, play some semi decent rugby, get through the pool stage and contest a QF in better shape than we are currently in. It might come together.....it might.
After that, well who knows. Doubt the RFU would be keen to jettison their preferred coach in under a year and there is a case for seeing how the next 6N's pan out before making a definitive judgement.
More effective than the last times Tuilagi has played? Most players.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:46 pmMost of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?Stom wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:34 pmI don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:28 pm
Or 7-8 years later there's still not an alternative 23 that's better.
Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player
I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.