RugbyRebels

morepork wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:18 pm Is SB really this thick or are his hands tied by something else?

I don’t think he’s helped by having literally nobody in form, having nailed his colours to the mast with Farrell, Arundell being persona non grata, and having a drastically inexperienced coaching group.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:04 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:17 pm no to sacking him. Let him get his new bods in ref coaching and see how things go from there. I can’t imagine the Wriggler and his limited skill set as an attack coach have made selection any easier.

Plus we have a very green defence coach

Absolutely, why wouldn't you want to keep someone with no apparent intl leadership ability, no apparent selection ability, zippo knowledge of back play but knows a thing or two about the lineout and how kicking for territory guarantees a lovely stat. And a nasal talking point.

I accept all the points you make. I just don't get sacking him once this campaign is over. I was pleased beyond words to see the back of Jones, and then somewhat deflated we ended up with the current mob. I was hoping we could finally find a coach who was a back when playing.

That said I would take the Racing 92 coaching team Monday morning if they became available

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:42 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:18 pm Is SB really this thick or are his hands tied by something else?

I don’t think he’s helped by having literally nobody in form, having nailed his colours to the mast with Farrell, Arundell being persona non grata, and having a drastically inexperienced coaching group.

A fair bit of that feels self-inflicted, in fairness.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:39 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:09 pm No Arundell in the 23 hurts most for me - it sends a message. If you're too talented, quick and attacking, we're not interested. Who would La Rochelle or Leinster rather sign, Arundell or May? Who would New Zealand, France, Ireland or South Africa rather have in their squad, Arundell or May? But Steve prefers May. Great.

Another layer to add the sadness is how we now talk about Arundell now as if he’s done anything to earn a wing spot. We’re just that desperate to avoid picking others that we may as well throw in a promising youngster.

That’s not a diss to him, he hasn’t really had the chance to do anything. But all he’s achieved so far is to not mess up a bunch of walk-ins vs Chile, in addition to a great touch/try a year or two ago.

Frankly there was enough in his couple of touches in Oz to keep him in matchday squads, ditto Freeman, given the apparent paucity of other options. Certainly done more in those than Daly and May have managed (ish).

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:24 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:12 pm SB has picked the XV that he thinks gives him the best chance of beating Fiji. If we win was he right? If we lose was he right? In the latter case, where does that leave him?

I can't come up with a reasonable argument in favour of keeping him based on the selection of the 33 and the selection of this 23, should we lose.

I think it'd be exceptionally shitty to take the person who was expecting and who had been told to build his career progression and development around taking over the England role after the RWC, drop him in on short notice with very little time to actually build anything, heavily imply that he'll be out on his ear if he fails to make the knockouts, and then sack him because he went uber-safety first and did make the knockouts but not in as fun a way as we'd like.

He gets a year, to my mind, barring absolute collapse and no signs of anything being built in the 6N.

Puja

I think his judgement is on the line. We should beat Fiji. If we do I accept his way of doing things and agree that a year to make progress is reasonable.

But, if we lose with that match-day 23 I can't accept that he knows what he is doing. We can never have the full information. He can and he's chosen that line-up as the best available from the 33.

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:43 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:04 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:17 pm no to sacking him. Let him get his new bods in ref coaching and see how things go from there. I can’t imagine the Wriggler and his limited skill set as an attack coach have made selection any easier.

Plus we have a very green defence coach

Absolutely, why wouldn't you want to keep someone with no apparent intl leadership ability, no apparent selection ability, zippo knowledge of back play but knows a thing or two about the lineout and how kicking for territory guarantees a lovely stat. And a nasal talking point.

I accept all the points you make. I just don't get sacking him once this campaign is over. I was pleased beyond words to see the back of Jones, and then somewhat deflated we ended up with the current mob. I was hoping we could finally find a coach who was a back when playing.

That said I would take the Racing 92 coaching team Monday morning if they became available

I'm only joking, partly because I know he won't be fired....(mind, when Sweeney et call me al step down in November who knows)

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:39 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:09 pm No Arundell in the 23 hurts most for me - it sends a message. If you're too talented, quick and attacking, we're not interested. Who would La Rochelle or Leinster rather sign, Arundell or May? Who would New Zealand, France, Ireland or South Africa rather have in their squad, Arundell or May? But Steve prefers May. Great.

all he’s achieved so far is to not mess up a bunch of walk-ins vs Chile, in addition to a great touch/try a year or two ago.

Almost certainly enough for him to be picked on form rather than just potential, sadly.

So, to accommodate having a 10 at FB, we've picked a wing who isn't in our 4 best wings anymore, but has played fullback for England, badly granted, but he's been there. You'd have thought that that would be covered by the guy who has been apparently been so undroppable at FB that we didn't start anyone else there for the warm ups, and has been there for most of the tournament, but no! he's out entirely, and that bench slot is taken either by the centre who is there in case the ageing, injury prone at 12 breaks down, or by our best flyhalf who has been dropped, but is on the bench, presumably to allow the plan of us shifting the starting 10 out to be a bad 12 as the game goes on. You'd think the 10 starting at FB might be able to step up to do that, but he's not trusted to play in his club position apparently. All that topped off with the strong possibility we'll see our best 13 shifted to the wing to accommodate those FH shenanigans at some point.

16th man wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:55 pm So, to accommodate having a 10 at FB, we've picked a wing who isn't in our 4 best wings anymore, but has played fullback for England, badly granted, but he's been there. You'd have thought that that would be covered by the guy who has been apparently been so undroppable at FB that we didn't start anyone else there for the warm ups, and has been there for most of the tournament, but no! he's out entirely, and that bench slot is taken either by the centre who is there in case the ageing, injury prone at 12 breaks down, or by our best flyhalf who has been dropped, but is on the bench, presumably to allow the plan of us shifting the starting 10 out to be a bad 12 as the game goes on. You'd think the 10 starting at FB might be able to step up to do that, but he's not trusted to play in his club position apparently. All that topped off with the strong possibility we'll see our best 13 shifted to the wing to accommodate those FH shenanigans at some point.

and the same pack who were sh*t v Samoa. Worth repeating I think.

16th man wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:55 pm So, to accommodate having a 10 at FB, we've picked a wing who isn't in our 4 best wings anymore, but has played fullback for England, badly granted, but he's been there. You'd have thought that that would be covered by the guy who has been apparently been so undroppable at FB that we didn't start anyone else there for the warm ups, and has been there for most of the tournament, but no! he's out entirely, and that bench slot is taken either by the centre who is there in case the ageing, injury prone at 12 breaks down, or by our best flyhalf who has been dropped, but is on the bench, presumably to allow the plan of us shifting the starting 10 out to be a bad 12 as the game goes on. You'd think the 10 starting at FB might be able to step up to do that, but he's not trusted to play in his club position apparently. All that topped off with the strong possibility we'll see our best 13 shifted to the wing to accommodate those FH shenanigans at some point.

When you put it like that… IBWT

If the powers that be want England to succeed in international rugby they have to get rid of the whole Augean stable of Stunted Brain and his acolytes, and go after the ex-rugby league hard-nosed duo of Farrell/Edwards who have done wonders in Ireland and France.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:42 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:18 pm Is SB really this thick or are his hands tied by something else?

I don’t think he’s helped by having literally nobody in form, having nailed his colours to the mast with Farrell, Arundell being persona non grata, and having a drastically inexperienced coaching group.

Pretty much. I think he went with experience hoping that the spine from 2019 plus some newer additions would carry is through to a respectable as could be exit. He might still achieve that despite some dull and error strewn showings.

There can't be a repeat for the 6N it has to be a gutting of the squad. This lot can't even execute the simplest of game plans Steve has given them.

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:03 pm

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:42 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:18 pm Is SB really this thick or are his hands tied by something else?

I don’t think he’s helped by having literally nobody in form, having nailed his colours to the mast with Farrell, Arundell being persona non grata, and having a drastically inexperienced coaching group.

Pretty much. I think he went with experience hoping that the spine from 2019 plus some newer additions would carry is through to a respectable as could be exit. He might still achieve that despite some dull and error strewn showings.

There can't be a repeat for the 6N it has to be a gutting of the squad. This lot can't even execute the simplest of game plans Steve has given them.

true, it is very simple. Produce really slow ball, don't slow down opposition ball and miss your tackles. And kick the fck out of it. Whatever happens, don't do a backs move, and as insurance I'll move your positions between every match so you won't be able to remember them.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:13 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:03 pm

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:42 pm

I don’t think he’s helped by having literally nobody in form, having nailed his colours to the mast with Farrell, Arundell being persona non grata, and having a drastically inexperienced coaching group.

Pretty much. I think he went with experience hoping that the spine from 2019 plus some newer additions would carry is through to a respectable as could be exit. He might still achieve that despite some dull and error strewn showings.

There can't be a repeat for the 6N it has to be a gutting of the squad. This lot can't even execute the simplest of game plans Steve has given them.

true, it is very simple. Produce really slow ball, don't slow down opposition ball and miss your tackles. And kick the fck out of it. Whatever happens, don't do a backs move, and as insurance I'll move your positions between every match so you won't be able to remember them.

It’s interesting that they’re all out of form after three months in training camp…

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:45 pm

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:42 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:18 pm Is SB really this thick or are his hands tied by something else?

I don’t think he’s helped by having literally nobody in form, having nailed his colours to the mast with Farrell, Arundell being persona non grata, and having a drastically inexperienced coaching group.

A fair bit of that feels self-inflicted, in fairness.

Agreed. He’s backed himself into a corner in a number of angles. The coaching team is probably the one I’d let him off lightest on as there was fuck all available and no money for any more experienced coaches who weren’t available anyway.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:15 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:13 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:03 pm

Pretty much. I think he went with experience hoping that the spine from 2019 plus some newer additions would carry is through to a respectable as could be exit. He might still achieve that despite some dull and error strewn showings.

There can't be a repeat for the 6N it has to be a gutting of the squad. This lot can't even execute the simplest of game plans Steve has given them.

true, it is very simple. Produce really slow ball, don't slow down opposition ball and miss your tackles. And kick the fck out of it. Whatever happens, don't do a backs move, and as insurance I'll move your positions between every match so you won't be able to remember them.

It’s interesting that they’re all out of form after three months in training camp…

Not too dissimilar to Tigers after he took over. Maybe a combo of the hangover from Jones and then trying to change shit, the players getting confused (cause they’re not too bright) and then reverting back to ‘known’. That would be my guess.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:13 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:03 pm

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:42 pm

I don’t think he’s helped by having literally nobody in form, having nailed his colours to the mast with Farrell, Arundell being persona non grata, and having a drastically inexperienced coaching group.

Pretty much. I think he went with experience hoping that the spine from 2019 plus some newer additions would carry is through to a respectable as could be exit. He might still achieve that despite some dull and error strewn showings.

There can't be a repeat for the 6N it has to be a gutting of the squad. This lot can't even execute the simplest of game plans Steve has given them.

true, it is very simple. Produce really slow ball, don't slow down opposition ball and miss your tackles. And kick the fck out of it. Whatever happens, don't do a backs move, and as insurance I'll move your positions between every match so you won't be able to remember them.

Yeah pretty sure that's not coached. Catching the ball at the lineout and rolling maul. Kick to compete. Drive the opposition back around the breakdown forcing them to play wide with momentum.

It's all really basic stuff. How many simple dropped passes? Admittedly our 9s lose the ability to pass with any degree of accuracy at most 20 mins into a game. Owen "the overlap butcher" Farrell doesn't help but the error count has been astronomical. Can you imagine how bad it would be if Farrell Snr or someone similar rocked up and tried to get us to play like Ireland? Would induce a breakdown before halftime in many.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:57 pm

16th man wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:55 pm So, to accommodate having a 10 at FB, we've picked a wing who isn't in our 4 best wings anymore, but has played fullback for England, badly granted, but he's been there. You'd have thought that that would be covered by the guy who has been apparently been so undroppable at FB that we didn't start anyone else there for the warm ups, and has been there for most of the tournament, but no! he's out entirely, and that bench slot is taken either by the centre who is there in case the ageing, injury prone at 12 breaks down, or by our best flyhalf who has been dropped, but is on the bench, presumably to allow the plan of us shifting the starting 10 out to be a bad 12 as the game goes on. You'd think the 10 starting at FB might be able to step up to do that, but he's not trusted to play in his club position apparently. All that topped off with the strong possibility we'll see our best 13 shifted to the wing to accommodate those FH shenanigans at some point.

and the same pack who were sh*t v Samoa. Worth repeating I think.

I didn't want to gild the lily and talk about the pack. and by gild, I mean coat in turd. And by lily, I mean a turd.

I'm looking at the bench and we are so monumentally fucked if one of Curry or Earl picks up a knock, as that will mean a back row of Billy and Courtney, when we're also carrying Cole as an empty shirt as soon as the ball goes more than a couple of metres from him in any phase.
That is unless Martin comes on to play 8, with Courtney moving up to second row? Which isn't ideal, but is a bit more mobile at least.

George, Itoje and Curry are all players who, with the right game plan, preparation and a sensible supporting cast alongside them have shown that they can absolutely compete with the best in the world in their positions. However all 3 are showing the affects of wear and tear through a lack of back up and in Curry's case, having his weight levels dicked about with by the previous regime.

Genge has displayed the potential to have made that half the pack having that sort of level, but is also apparently struggling with whatever the shitshow is doing behind the scenes. Whatever they do in front row training at Bristol needs looking at because he's joined Sinkler in going well off the boil since moving there.

Cole is just too old. He was too old 4 years ago, but the rest of the pack being young and on form at least dragged him through the tournament. It really isn't his fault. He's trying to do what's asked of him but he's a just a walking target in the defensive line for anyone who can get above a brisk jog.

Courtney isn't an international back row anymore if he ever was. He has been able to do a passable impression of one, due to who has been around him before, but his mobility is just not there anymore. you can't blame him in the same way you can't blame Cole.

Frankly, who knows with Chessum, given the mess the more experienced players have been.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:39 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:09 pm No Arundell in the 23 hurts most for me - it sends a message. If you're too talented, quick and attacking, we're not interested. Who would La Rochelle or Leinster rather sign, Arundell or May? Who would New Zealand, France, Ireland or South Africa rather have in their squad, Arundell or May? But Steve prefers May. Great.

Another layer to add the sadness is how we now talk about Arundell now as if he’s done anything to earn a wing spot. We’re just that desperate to avoid picking others that we may as well throw in a promising youngster.

That’s not a diss to him, he hasn’t really had the chance to do anything. But all he’s achieved so far is to not mess up a bunch of walk-ins vs Chile, in addition to a great touch/try a year or two ago.

Careful - I tried to make that point before the Samoa game and it turned into a whole thing,

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:28 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:13 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:03 pm

Pretty much. I think he went with experience hoping that the spine from 2019 plus some newer additions would carry is through to a respectable as could be exit. He might still achieve that despite some dull and error strewn showings.

There can't be a repeat for the 6N it has to be a gutting of the squad. This lot can't even execute the simplest of game plans Steve has given them.

true, it is very simple. Produce really slow ball, don't slow down opposition ball and miss your tackles. And kick the fck out of it. Whatever happens, don't do a backs move, and as insurance I'll move your positions between every match so you won't be able to remember them.

Yeah pretty sure that's not coached.

ya don't say. But it's what's happening, and its really basic stuff.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:33 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:28 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:13 pm
true, it is very simple. Produce really slow ball, don't slow down opposition ball and miss your tackles. And kick the fck out of it. Whatever happens, don't do a backs move, and as insurance I'll move your positions between every match so you won't be able to remember them.

Yeah pretty sure that's not coached.

ya don't say. But it's what's happening, and its really basic stuff.

So, what happened to SB's 'clarity' theme? Surely, the first step down that route is 'let's get the basics right' which should have taken all of the first day or two in training camp with players on this average number of caps.

Is it as simple as the majority of players not liking the way they are being asked to play?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:57 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:33 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:28 pm

Yeah pretty sure that's not coached.

ya don't say. But it's what's happening, and its really basic stuff.

So, what happened to SB's 'clarity' theme? Surely, the first step down that route is 'let's get the basics right' which should have taken all of the first day or two in training camp with players on this average number of caps.

Is it as simple as the majority of players not liking the way they are being asked to play?

No. I don't think they know what they are meant to do and/or can't do it.... and I don't mean game plan/strategy.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:57 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:33 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:28 pm

Yeah pretty sure that's not coached.

ya don't say. But it's what's happening, and its really basic stuff.

So, what happened to SB's 'clarity' theme? Surely, the first step down that route is 'let's get the basics right' which should have taken all of the first day or two in training camp with players on this average number of caps.

Is it as simple as the majority of players not liking the way they are being asked to play?

I can't help but look at the tortured logic that is governing the endless stream of shuffles in the back line and take them as an indication that,although there may be an intention to get the basics right, there is a dearth of ability in the coaching staff to actually identify and stick to what those basics are, and to consistently agree and implement an approach to how we want to address them.

16th man wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:04 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:57 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:33 pm

ya don't say. But it's what's happening, and its really basic stuff.

So, what happened to SB's 'clarity' theme? Surely, the first step down that route is 'let's get the basics right' which should have taken all of the first day or two in training camp with players on this average number of caps.

Is it as simple as the majority of players not liking the way they are being asked to play?

I can't help but look at the tortured logic that is governing the endless stream of shuffles in the back line and take them as an indication that,although there may be an intention to get the basics right, there is a dearth of ability in the coaching staff to actually identify and stick to what those basics are, and to consistently agree and implement an approach to how we want to address them.

just seems to me like its forward coaches saying the backs are sh*t so lets keep changing them and hope it works.Without spotting what enables opposing backlines to work against us both sides of the ball.

Poor coaching, selection and tactics are certainly part of England's problem. But there is an even bigger issue - a lot of the players just don't look up to international rugby. This is particularly so in the backs where a lack of skill, organization,invention, pace and rugby intelligence is pretty clear to see. There is no way round this except to have a drastic cull of the tired old horses and look around for fresh talent.