6 Nations Squad Announcement - 11:30am

[TheDasher]

Yes. But injured too often.

What position and in which years instead of who?... if you can be bothered

Ben Cohen, Dan Luger, Austin Healey, Josh Lewsey (as wing), Cueto, Strettle, Sackeyetc 2002-2010.

I salute you for bothering. Prime Cohen was an absolute test match beast in attack and defence, Luger was a fcking train on the wing in his prime, Healey was useful in many positions, Lewsey was a world class athlete, defence and attack. Simpson Daniel was a better creative attacking rugby player than Cueto, Sackey and Strettle... by far. First four, not clear cut. How good was Sinbad in defence, under the high ball etc. Not sure. Maybe a bit of Matt Le Tiss type situ here...

[Banquo]

What position and in which years instead of who?... if you can be bothered

Ben Cohen, Dan Luger, Austin Healey, Josh Lewsey (as wing), Cueto, Strettle, Sackeyetc 2002-2010.

I salute you for bothering. Prime Cohen was an absolute test match beast in attack and defence, Luger was a fcking train on the wing in his prime, Healey was useful in many positions, Lewsey was a world class athlete, defence and attack. Simpson Daniel was a better creative attacking rugby player than Cueto, Sackey and Strettle... by far. First three, not clear cut. How good was Sinbad in defence, under the high ball etc. Not sure. Maybe a bit of Matt Le Tiss type situ here...

Cohen had a couple of good seasons when we dominated, therafter fell off a cliff, not v skilled; Luger..had a good season or two, but RWC mare post Nick Duncombe death; Healey jack of all trades, ok wing as a roamer, but not close to JSD. Lewsey ...as you say, athlete, but not creative.

JSD was a much more skilled than the first 2 as well.
Until he got glandular fever in 2002, he was heading for the RWC, and that bad luck continued.
Given there are two wing slots, imo he should have been nailed into one for at least 5 years. Nearly up to campo as a creative talent imo

wing btw- not a 13 tbh

[Which Tyler]

Yeah, I'd have had JSD ahead any of his contemporaries

[Mellsblue]

Yep. World class talent, pub team fitness record.

[p/d]

Lovely hair. Not to malign Stretts’ locks, just a more desirable look.

Seriously though he was an arse off the seat player when ball in hand. Not sure you can say that about the others, as excellent as they were

[Mikey Brown]

Thank god we’ve settled that. JSD was good after all.

I wonder how much training time was spent talking about kick chases back then?

[Mellsblue]

Not enough, obvs.

[Scrumhead]

We've got the last two games in the 6N and a summer tour where we are primed for greater experimentation. Hopefully accelerate some of the squad refresh then.

I’m not sure we do have the summer tour for experimentation. Some dickhead thought it was a good idea to tour Argentina whilst we miss a load of the squad to the Lions. Probably the same person who thought the best way to start the autumn internationals was with a game against NZ.

Granted we’ll have to replace the players who go to the lions but not sure we’ll be dishing out a load of debuts.

Well we’ve been doing it for some time so it’s not a new idea.

Personally, I like it. It creates opportunities for players and I’d rather play proper test matches than games that are so one sided they’re essentially meaningless.

How many players will be losing to the Lions anyway? At this point in time, I wouldn’t expect lots.

[Captainhaircut]

We've got the last two games in the 6N and a summer tour where we are primed for greater experimentation. Hopefully accelerate some of the squad refresh then.

I’m not sure we do have the summer tour for experimentation. Some dickhead thought it was a good idea to tour Argentina whilst we miss a load of the squad to the Lions. Probably the same person who thought the best way to start the autumn internationals was with a game against NZ.

Granted we’ll have to replace the players who go to the lions but not sure we’ll be dishing out a load of debuts.

Well we’ve been doing it for some time so it’s not a new idea.

Personally, I like it. It creates opportunities for players and I’d rather play proper test matches than games that are so one sided they’re essentially meaningless.

How many players will be losing to the Lions anyway? At this point in time, I wouldn’t expect lots.

It’s a bit different now Argentina are excellent and we’re a bit shit though isn’t it?

I’d expect Genge, Itoje, Chessum, Mitchell, Smith, Freeman and IFW to definitely go. With potential for Martin, Stuart, one of the hookers and maybe another back rower depending on injuries and form. So anything from 7 to 11 of our first 23. Plus whatever injuries we have.

Would guess somewhere around half the first and it won’t be the best half. Hardly the ideal situation to drop players in for debuts, particularly with a coach under pressure.

[Scrumhead]

No. It isn’t ‘a bit different now Argentina are excellent’.

Argentina can be excellent on their day, but mostly they’re simply good. They don’t have a great record against us either.

In any case, you don’t just avoid teams in case they beat you. That’s not really how sport is supposed to work.

I don’t see us having 11 players in the Lions squad and even if we do, I’d still regard this tour as an important development opportunity. That doesn’t necessarily mean throwing debutants to the wolves (or Pumas). In most cases, it will be players who are second choice getting a chance to put pressure on the player ahead of them.

For example, if we stick with Marcus Smith at 10 for 6 Nations, the Argentina tour would be a perfect time to see Fin Smith as a starter.

[FKAS]

Argentina may or may not select a full strength side, they've been slowly introducing younger players over the last year and with quite a few of their players coming off the back of European seasons they may rest those from at least the first test ahead of four nations or whatever it's called.

England could go with something like this, even in the worse case scenario per CHC above:

Baxter, Dan, Heyes
Coles, Ewels
CCS, TWillis, Underhill/Earl
JvP, F Smith
Atkinson, Lawrence
Roebuck, Steward/Furbank, Sleightholme

Langdon, Rodd, AOF/Fasogbon, Clark, Pollock, Quirke, Bailey/Ford, Beard.

A bit green in places and sods law Still Beingblackmailed will have to include Slade for some reason. That would be a nice mix of youth and experience, we'd look a bit short on locks as expected but advancing Clark and Coles would potentially help limit that in the future.

[Oakboy]

Argentina may or may not select a full strength side, they've been slowly introducing younger players over the last year and with quite a few of their players coming off the back of European seasons they may rest those from at least the first test ahead of four nations or whatever it's called.

England could go with something like this, even in the worse case scenario per CHC above:

Baxter, Dan, Heyes
Coles, Ewels
CCS, TWillis, Underhill/Earl
JvP, F Smith
Atkinson, Lawrence
Roebuck, Steward/Furbank, Sleightholme

Langdon, Rodd, AOF/Fasogbon, Clark, Pollock, Quirke, Bailey/Ford, Beard.

A bit green in places and sods law Still Beingblackmailed will have to include Slade for some reason. That would be a nice mix of youth and experience, we'd look a bit short on locks as expected but advancing Clark and Coles would potentially help limit that in the future.

Ewels?

[Mellsblue]

What’s the alternative to Arg?

[Captainhaircut]

What’s the alternative to Arg?

Ireland are supposed to be touring Georgia and Romania.
Scotland are playing the Māoris then Pacific Island tour.
Wales expected to do Japan.

We are the only ones who think it makes sense to do an away tour to a side ahead of us in the rankings, a side 5th in the world and a side with wins against NZ (away), SA and Australia (a complete hammering) in the last 12 months. They also hammered Italy away (far more than any 6N side have recently) and were within 3 points away to Ireland.

We have a head coach under pressure where everyone is keen to quote his win record (where we asked him to play Ireland, France, New Zealand x 3, Oz, SA back to back) and now we want to send him on an away tour to a top side with half his first choice side.

The likelihood is that pressure and the fact he is already missing experience will mean safe choices such a Slade, George, Isiekwe. So you’ll see Fin Smith start, maybe the likes of Roebuck but I doubt we’ll see players who aren’t currently in the initial squad such as Atkinson, Hartley, Clark who we really need to find a time to get into the squad.

I’d love to be proven wrong and I don’t really agree with the criticism of Borthwick for being a conservative selector. He’s brought plenty in but wants a balance of experience and youth. He’d likely play with that balance with some more friendly games….

[Mikey Brown]

Seeing what would’ve been that Worcester midfield would be great.

[fivepointer]

Argentina might be a tricky assignment but thats no bad thing. it will be a good test of our strength in depth and will allow a few fringe players opportunity.

[Mellsblue]

What’s the alternative to Arg?

Ireland are supposed to be touring Georgia and Romania.
Scotland are playing the Māoris then Pacific Island tour.
Wales expected to do Japan.

We are the only ones who think it makes sense to do an away tour to a side ahead of us in the rankings, a side 5th in the world and a side with wins against NZ (away), SA and Australia (a complete hammering) in the last 12 months. They also hammered Italy away (far more than any 6N side have recently) and were within 3 points away to Ireland.

We have a head coach under pressure where everyone is keen to quote his win record (where we asked him to play Ireland, France, New Zealand x 3, Oz, SA back to back) and now we want to send him on an away tour to a top side with half his first choice side.

The likelihood is that pressure and the fact he is already missing experience will mean safe choices such a Slade, George, Isiekwe. So you’ll see Fin Smith start, maybe the likes of Roebuck but I doubt we’ll see players who aren’t currently in the initial squad such as Atkinson, Hartley, Clark who we really need to find a time to get into the squad.

I’d love to be proven wrong and I don’t really agree with the criticism of Borthwick for being a conservative selector. He’s brought plenty in but wants a balance of experience and youth. He’d likely play with that balance with some more friendly games….

With our (supposed) strength in depth we should be playing the strongest team not named NZ or SA, imo. We certainly shouldn’t be playing Romania and we’ve played Japan enough recently. I could get behind a test series in Georgia but I think whilst the Māoris and PIs look a good idea on paper I’m not sure it’ll be as good for developing and testing the team and fringe players as a series vs Argentina. Looking at it as a whole, which of the other home nations are better set for two tests vs Arg? I’d say none.
Other than possibly lock I can’t really see a unit in the team that’ll be severely weakened by BIL call ups so I’m happy to test the team vs Argentina. There’s also the possibility that Arg will rest some senior players, especially any (not sure if there is likely to be other than the two Argies at Toulouse) that go deep in the Top 14 barrage.

[FKAS]

Argentina may or may not select a full strength side, they've been slowly introducing younger players over the last year and with quite a few of their players coming off the back of European seasons they may rest those from at least the first test ahead of four nations or whatever it's called.

England could go with something like this, even in the worse case scenario per CHC above:

Baxter, Dan, Heyes
Coles, Ewels
CCS, TWillis, Underhill/Earl
JvP, F Smith
Atkinson, Lawrence
Roebuck, Steward/Furbank, Sleightholme

Langdon, Rodd, AOF/Fasogbon, Clark, Pollock, Quirke, Bailey/Ford, Beard.

A bit green in places and sods law Still Beingblackmailed will have to include Slade for some reason. That would be a nice mix of youth and experience, we'd look a bit short on locks as expected but advancing Clark and Coles would potentially help limit that in the future.

Ewels?

Token experienced option, he's a very good club level player. Can't seem to bring that to the international scene but for a couple of games he should be able to do a solid job.

[Which Tyler]

If he can stay on the pitch

[Oakboy]

Argentina may or may not select a full strength side, they've been slowly introducing younger players over the last year and with quite a few of their players coming off the back of European seasons they may rest those from at least the first test ahead of four nations or whatever it's called.

England could go with something like this, even in the worse case scenario per CHC above:

Baxter, Dan, Heyes
Coles, Ewels
CCS, TWillis, Underhill/Earl
JvP, F Smith
Atkinson, Lawrence
Roebuck, Steward/Furbank, Sleightholme

Langdon, Rodd, AOF/Fasogbon, Clark, Pollock, Quirke, Bailey/Ford, Beard.

A bit green in places and sods law Still Beingblackmailed will have to include Slade for some reason. That would be a nice mix of youth and experience, we'd look a bit short on locks as expected but advancing Clark and Coles would potentially help limit that in the future.

Ewels?

Token experienced option, he's a very good club level player. Can't seem to bring that to the international scene but for a couple of games he should be able to do a solid job.

When he came on today, Hill looked a far superior player.

[FKAS]

Ewels?

Token experienced option, he's a very good club level player. Can't seem to bring that to the international scene but for a couple of games he should be able to do a solid job.

When he came on today, Hill looked a far superior player.

Heading to France though. If he was staying in the Prem I'd take Hill instead.

[Scrumhead]

I’m pleased to see that Will Stuart has apparently gone from roundly criticised (often unfairly) to likely Lion.

Seriously though, what would we learn from a game against Romania? If our games against Japan have been considered to be of dubious value, Romania would be a further step down from that. We need to be developing hardened test players not flat track bullies. Touring Argentina is a far more productive exercise even if it results in 2 defeats.

Our Lions contingent will largely depend on how the 6 Nations plays out. We could just as easily have 12 or 5 tourists.

Either way, I think we could still send a pretty good squad with a good mix of youth and experience. I already mentioned Fin Smith, but these could be really important minutes for several players.

[Scrumhead]

In other, more current news - Furlong is out of next weekend’s game. Good news for our looseheads.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 48dzywj3go

[Puja]

I’m pleased to see that Will Stuart has apparently gone from roundly criticised (often unfairly) to likely Lion.

Seriously though, what would we learn from a game against Romania? If our games against Japan have been considered to be of dubious value, Romania would be a further step down from that. We need to be developing hardened test players not flat track bullies. Touring Argentina is a far more productive exercise even if it results in 2 defeats.

Our Lions contingent will largely depend on how the 6 Nations plays out. We could just as easily have 12 or 5 tourists.

Either way, I think we could still send a pretty good squad with a good mix of youth and experience. I already mentioned Fin Smith, but these could be really important minutes for several players.

Agreed. Argentina are a good side, but they're hardly insuperable. I'd far rather play genuine hard-bitten test matches and actually learn which of our reserves can cut it at the higher level than give USA or Romania a 50 point cuffing and learn absolutely nothing of any value.

Puja

[Captainhaircut]

What we learn from a trip to Argentina is that we get battered there taking half our first team and the media subsequently get all over Borthwick for it.

Agreed the odd player may benefit from it but that hardly helps us build a head of steam or takes any pressure of the coaching team. We’ll probably start with South Africa in the autumn just to keep that pressure right on…