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Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:59 pm
by Puja
Mikey Brown wrote:Puja wrote:Stom wrote:We have this problem in English sport to label each position with very specific needs. So a 13 must make outside breaks, a 7 must jackal, a 4 must be an enforcer, etc...
While each position does have responsibilities, we need to ditch this. So long as Slade has the ability to defend effectively at 13, the rest of his skills depend on the overall makeup of the backline, not on the number on his back.
Ditto 7. So long as the loose forwards are balanced, his role can be anything, so long as he's quick off the scrum to make those 1st out tackles and/or hit those 1 out rucks, depending on the situation.
The problen with that is that, with a more bespoke distribution of skills, it becomes harder to swap players like-for-like. Say you pick Harry Thacker at hooker and he does a lot of turnovers, support play and jackalling, so you can then have two 6s in the back row. However, if Thacker is injured or out of form and his replacement is someone like Hibbard, then you can't just make one change as you're going to need to bring in someone to cover the jackalling. And you can't get rid of one of your back row, because he's the lineout option covering the fact that your 4 is a behemoth who doesn't really jump because you needed a big carrier to cover the fact that your hooker isn't a big carrier... although now you've picked Hibbard who can carry, so do you need the big lock and the lineout back row?
It just creates unnecessary links between players in selection if you're covering a lack in one position elsewhere and you can have the fun situation where someone is dropped despite playing well because of needs elsewhere in the team. Or worse, that someone is kept despite not being in form, because they're needed to cover someone else's flaws.
Puja
Ah. You mean like negating the best back you've got by playing a guy that just drifts sideways but has been selected to kick goals because your fly-half has the temperament of a 14 year-old girl?
Exactly. Although I do have to defend Ford against those calumnies. I'd say Fazlet at 12 is as much about our lack of another suitable option as it is about Ford's constitution.
Puja
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:13 pm
by Digby
twitchy wrote:Digby wrote:Take away the barnstorming runs from Simmonds, essentially the bits that look good on a highlights show, and what do people actually like/notice about Simmonds going phase to phase?
I don't really know where to look for stats but he just carries a lot and makes metres all over the pitch.That is why he pops up for tries.
For england I would play him at 7 with two other big guys like robshaw and hughes. Let's not pretend he is some thing he isn't, he is 15 stone 7. He can't defy the laws of physics in close contact vs bigger guys but he will make ground and has serious pace.
Is carrying what you want from a 7, and in particular is it what Eddie wants from his 7?
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:30 pm
by Stom
Digby wrote:twitchy wrote:Digby wrote:Take away the barnstorming runs from Simmonds, essentially the bits that look good on a highlights show, and what do people actually like/notice about Simmonds going phase to phase?
I don't really know where to look for stats but he just carries a lot and makes metres all over the pitch.That is why he pops up for tries.
For england I would play him at 7 with two other big guys like robshaw and hughes. Let's not pretend he is some thing he isn't, he is 15 stone 7. He can't defy the laws of physics in close contact vs bigger guys but he will make ground and has serious pace.
Is carrying what you want from a 7, and in particular is it what Eddie wants from his 7?
Indeed. But imagine a backrow of him, Underhill and Mercer...all 3 could conceivably play in any of the roles. So give them a defined role and if one is down, the others can fill in.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:56 pm
by Tigersman
Mercer, Simmonds, Underhill, Curry, Curry, Evans, Ludlam, Willis, Willis, Nott, Ludlow,
Remember the days when England had like 1 back row prospect coming through.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:58 pm
by Mikey Brown
Where has Willis (multiple?) come from? The one playing for Wasps yesterday looked impressive, has he been a known prospect for a while?
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:52 pm
by Raggs
Mikey Brown wrote:Where has Willis (multiple?) come from? The one playing for Wasps yesterday looked impressive, has he been a known prospect for a while?
There was a second one that came on in the second half, and is more highly rated than his older brother was at the same age (18).
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:58 pm
by Scrumhead
Yeah - I think Tom Willis’ first action when he came on was to bust through a couple of tackles from senior Saracens players. Not an average 18 year old. Jack Willis has been on the radar for a while. Perhaps not a top, top prospect, but he was decent at age grade level and played well yesterday.
I’d be hesitant to include Nott at the moment. As good as he is, he doesn’t seem to be getting a look in with Sale right now. Similarly, my hopes for Ludlam at the start of the season are fading as he’s dropped out of the 23 for Saints.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:06 pm
by Scrumhead
Digby wrote:twitchy wrote:Digby wrote:Take away the barnstorming runs from Simmonds, essentially the bits that look good on a highlights show, and what do people actually like/notice about Simmonds going phase to phase?
I don't really know where to look for stats but he just carries a lot and makes metres all over the pitch.That is why he pops up for tries.
For england I would play him at 7 with two other big guys like robshaw and hughes. Let's not pretend he is some thing he isn't, he is 15 stone 7. He can't defy the laws of physics in close contact vs bigger guys but he will make ground and has serious pace.
Is carrying what you want from a 7, and in particular is it what Eddie wants from his 7?
The thing is, carrying comes in different forms. So far under Eddie, our 7s have been used as tighter carriers but I wonder whether that’s been down to the limitations of the available personnnel and the necessity of them to perform a specific role? Eddie had spoken about wanting to see his back row linking up with the backs more often.
Simmonds could certainly bring that as part of a looser/wider carrying game, but given that he’s not playing at 7 for Chiefs, I assume that would count against him if he’s in competition with Underhill or the Currys who are.
Underhill and the Curry twins seem to carry more like Robshaw - i.e. effective rather than eye catching.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:27 pm
by twitchy
I think waldrom is back in full training so we could see SS in other positions in the back row soon.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:46 pm
by Scrumhead
Anyone know what the deal is with Kvesic? Baxter seemed really excited to sign him but we've barely seen him in a Chiefs shirt so far.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:10 pm
by twitchy
He got injured in the first game vs glos I think (or at least shortly after).
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:24 pm
by Raggs
If you had Teo at 12 (and assuming he's a reasonable rucker), you could perhaps afford to lose some size in the pack. In truth Hask isn't really there for his carrying, he's adequate, but he's hardly amazing. He's there to smash rucks, which with the new ruck laws, is a little less useful in some capacities, but if counter rucking becomes the vogue, then he may be more useful than smaller 7s. Underhill I think is our best bet for a replacement 7, big dominant tackler, and very physical at the rucks too.
Jack Willis, though he failed, put in a fantastic ruck hit with real physicality in the sarries game, 2 wasps players trying and failing to shift Itoje I believe, Willis hits, and shifts all 3.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:19 pm
by Puja
twitchy wrote:He got injured in the first game vs glos I think (or at least shortly after).
I don't know he did - he's been on the bench sporadically (he was against Leicester). I'm just not sure that he's getting above Salvi, Skinner and Armand for a place in the XXIII.
Puja
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:50 pm
by Scrumhead
Yeah, I’ve definitely seen him on the bench, but he doesn’t like he’s anywhere near a start right now.
I was curious to see if anyone had more of an inside track.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:57 am
by Puja
Jack Nowell's now likely to be out of the first 2 AIs at least with the eye injury he's picked up.
Puja
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:38 am
by Mikey Brown
What are people's thoughts on Daly/May at 14? I certainly don't want Solomona there but fear it might be.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:46 am
by Which Tyler
I'd rather have them at 11&14 than decide between one of them there.
I'd give them Watson at FB too, now that Bath have finally given him more than 5 minutes there.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:30 pm
by Puja
Mikey Brown wrote:What are people's thoughts on Daly/May at 14? I certainly don't want Solomona there but fear it might be.
I'd take that, although depending on the centres that could result in a very fast, but lightweight back division.
Yarde is confusing me. He's been very good for Quins so far this season and it's making it hard to remember how poor he was in Argentina. I suspect/hope that he'd be ahead of Solomona and am slightly worried that he'll be ahead of May because of his ability to bosh.
Puja
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:57 pm
by Timbo
Even before Nowell’s injury I was hoping for a Daly-May-Watson back 3. Lacks a tad in outright physicality, but packed full of pace and try scoring menace. You’d never be out of a game with those 3 on the pitch.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:08 pm
by Puja
Timbo wrote:Even before Nowell’s injury I was hoping for a Daly-May-Watson back 3. Lacks a tad in outright physicality, but packed full of pace and try scoring menace. You’d never be out of a game with those 3 on the pitch.
My only concern is that, with a Ford/Faz/Joseph midfield, that gives us very few options to keep the inside defence guessing - sometimes you do need someone who can carry up, or at least threaten to carry up, to keep eyes turned inwards. Plus a lot of our backs patterns require having an outlet to pass to and recycle if the defence have covered the wide move. I'm far from convinced by Te'o at 13 and I don't see Eddie abandoning two playmakers just to make room for our wings, so I don't expect him to be at 12.
I guess we could use Simmonds/Hughes wide amongst the backs, since we're going to be short a Billy anyway, but that feels like a bodge.
Puja
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:38 pm
by Which Tyler
Yeah, the solution to the problem in England's backs is fairly obvious; with Te'o at IC. Agreed though, Eddie's not about to drop Fazlet to the bench.
I'm beginning to think I'd rather Ford was dropped to the bench than put Te'o at 13.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:55 pm
by Oakboy
Which Tyler wrote:Yeah, the solution to the problem in England's backs is fairly obvious; with Te'o at IC. Agreed though, Eddie's not about to drop Fazlet to the bench.
I'm beginning to think I'd rather Ford was dropped to the bench than put Te'o at 13.
So, would you play Slade at 13?
10. Farrell, 11. Daly, 12. T'eo, 13. Slade, 14. May, 15. Watson seems a logical compromise with Jones sure to have Farrell first on his team-sheet. I'd quite like to have that backs' line-up start but the devil in me would want an early minor injury to Farrell so that Ford could show he was the better FH. Let's face it, if that unit started and Ford was brought on in normal circumstances it would be one of T'eo or Slade who would be replaced with Farrell moving to IC.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:07 pm
by Which Tyler
In an ideal world, I'd try Slade at 12 either side of Ford and Joseph. Which just isn't going to happen.
If we go wth 10. Farrell; 11. Daly; 12. Te'o; 13. ??? 14. May; 15. Watson then I'd honestly be happy with either JJ or Slade (or Daly with ANOther at 11) at 13
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:28 pm
by Raggs
We've had Daly + May at 11 + 14 respectively a few times in the past. It wouldn't be new for Eddie.
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:55 pm
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote:Yeah, the solution to the problem in England's backs is fairly obvious; with Te'o at IC. Agreed though, Eddie's not about to drop Fazlet to the bench.
I'm beginning to think I'd rather Ford was dropped to the bench than put Te'o at 13.
what's changed your view on Teo?