RugbyRebels

Mellsblue wrote:I'd certainly say that Watson passes about as much as Brown by instinct. I definitely think he's more aware of an overlap than Brown. The big difference is what they do when they have the ball. Watson is ten times the attacking threat that Brown is, and that's before you start to argue whether Brown has lost a bit of pace.

I think the difference is a bit overstated but basically everybody agrees on what you've said there. I just thought it was a curious point that different players seem to get judged on very different criteria.

If you can access the Times, interesting snippet from George Ford, talking about looking at RL for attacking clues, 'now you have more defenders on their feet'. with the new breakdown laws. The killer paragraph though, is where he describes Matt Toomua as the best 12 he has ever played with. Faz and Eddie will be well chuffed.

Banquo wrote:If you can access the Times, interesting snippet from George Ford, talking about looking at RL for attacking clues, 'now you have more defenders on their feet'. with the new breakdown laws. The killer paragraph though, is where he describes Matt Toomua as the best 12 he has ever played with. Faz and Eddie will be well chuffed.

That and looking for clever running lines from the back row.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:If you can access the Times, interesting snippet from George Ford, talking about looking at RL for attacking clues, 'now you have more defenders on their feet'. with the new breakdown laws. The killer paragraph though, is where he describes Matt Toomua as the best 12 he has ever played with. Faz and Eddie will be well chuffed.

That and looking for clever running lines from the back row.

clever running lines all round. He actually says Toomua is BY FAR the best 12 he's played with....

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:Who criticised him for not being a natural fly half? Not me. I criticised him for not being a good enough OC to pass the ball to a man in a better position, and trying to go himself. No need to be a fly half, just commit and pass.

To move onto a different player, and one a fair few had high hopes for, I feel Haley looks a bit too Brown like, with his lack of distribution. He often beats that first man too, but never seems to look for the pass.

Seems a tad overstated to me, think there is plenty of evidence to counter that; I also think this view (as you expressed earlier in a slightly different comment to the above) that a 13 will often have a 2 v 1 with the winger unmarked outside him is a bit sterile with modern defences.....in conventional attack, a 13 will more often be passing to a full back in any case, but with a defence that's either sliding across or coming in from the outside, either of which are somewhat more complex than drawing a player and passing.

I do agree for the last 5 or so games I have seen him in, he has been trying too hard to force plays himself, but as I said above, its a bit of a function of what has been happening inside him.

Will Eddie pick JJ at 13? Most of us do not see Youngs, Ford and Farrell as a top-functioning unit but Eddie appears to. He seems to blame JJ for not fitting with them and that's that. I'd be surprised if we do not get T'eo at 13. Of course, Farrell has played at 13 for Saracens. Maybe Eddie sees some future in them inter-changing.

Over-riding all other considerations for me, is the conviction that we don't get the best out of Ford at 10 if Farrell is running the game from 12. If I could have one wish it would be that for the AIs Eddie could select only one of the Fs at 10. Then review.

What is the bolded section actually based upon? How do you know what Eddie ‘seems to think’ about JJ?

He was left out of ONE, early season training squad. Up until that point he’d been in every one of Eddie’s squads and has almost always been the starter when fit.

Some of the points regarding his reduced effecitiveness have an element of truth about them but he’s still managed to be the top try-scorer in the Eddie Jones era by some distance.

Eddie may well look to experiment in the AIs but when it comes to the 6N and bigger games, I would be amazed if he leaves JJ out.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:If you can access the Times, interesting snippet from George Ford, talking about looking at RL for attacking clues, 'now you have more defenders on their feet'. with the new breakdown laws. The killer paragraph though, is where he describes Matt Toomua as the best 12 he has ever played with. Faz and Eddie will be well chuffed.

That and looking for clever running lines from the back row.

clever running lines all round. He actually says Toomua is BY FAR the best 12 he's played with....

He may have meant at club level or even just at Leicester, frankly his work with Eastmond still looks better than his partnership with Toomua so far. And perhaps he's thinking Toomua is the best on the basis of their chatting during the week planning how'll attack. Though Toomua is a fine player and they should work well together.

Also, and I don't want to decry ball out the back, but the focus on league does seem to ignore that sometimes ball out in front is a much simpler way to play and they often make their own attack much harder than it needs to be in execution and support.

Scrumhead wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: Seems a tad overstated to me, think there is plenty of evidence to counter that; I also think this view (as you expressed earlier in a slightly different comment to the above) that a 13 will often have a 2 v 1 with the winger unmarked outside him is a bit sterile with modern defences.....in conventional attack, a 13 will more often be passing to a full back in any case, but with a defence that's either sliding across or coming in from the outside, either of which are somewhat more complex than drawing a player and passing.

I do agree for the last 5 or so games I have seen him in, he has been trying too hard to force plays himself, but as I said above, its a bit of a function of what has been happening inside him.

Will Eddie pick JJ at 13? Most of us do not see Youngs, Ford and Farrell as a top-functioning unit but Eddie appears to. He seems to blame JJ for not fitting with them and that's that. I'd be surprised if we do not get T'eo at 13. Of course, Farrell has played at 13 for Saracens. Maybe Eddie sees some future in them inter-changing.

Over-riding all other considerations for me, is the conviction that we don't get the best out of Ford at 10 if Farrell is running the game from 12. If I could have one wish it would be that for the AIs Eddie could select only one of the Fs at 10. Then review.

What is the bolded section actually based upon? How do you know what Eddie ‘seems to think’ about JJ?

He was left out of ONE, early season training squad. Up until that point he’d been in every one of Eddie’s squads and has almost always been the starter when fit.

Some of the points regarding his reduced effecitiveness have an element of truth about them but he’s still managed to be the top try-scorer in the Eddie Jones era by some distance.

Eddie may well look to experiment in the AIs but when it comes to the 6N and bigger games, I would be amazed if he leaves JJ out.

He was also dropped v Italy, and yanked for Teo in a couple of 6N games. You don't think it important he was left out of the training squad, others do. There's a bit of evidence. I agree it would be odd, but I also wouldn't be surprised.

I guess there is also a bit of a feeling from the Lions Tour that his star is waning- he was allegedly only a last minute selection, and perhaps this is seeping into this England selection thinking, rightly or more likely wrongly.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
That and looking for clever running lines from the back row.

clever running lines all round. He actually says Toomua is BY FAR the best 12 he's played with....

He may have meant at club level or even just at Leicester, frankly his work with Eastmond still looks better than his partnership with Toomua so far. And perhaps he's thinking Toomua is the best on the basis of their chatting during the week planning how'll attack. Though Toomua is a fine player and they should work well together.

Also, and I don't want to decry ball out the back, but the focus on league does seem to ignore that sometimes ball out in front is a much simpler way to play and they often make their own attack much harder than it needs to be in execution and support.

Whatever he 'meant' it'll certainly create a bit of banter.

and I don't necessarily agree with his views on RL, where I think they could do a lot more in attack, its an inherently conservative game.

Scrumhead wrote:
How do you know what Eddie ‘seems to think’ about JJ?

He was left out of ONE, early season training squad. Up until that point he’d been in every one of Eddie’s squads and has almost always been the starter when fit.

Some of the points regarding his reduced effecitiveness have an element of truth about them but he’s still managed to be the top try-scorer in the Eddie Jones era by some distance.

Eddie may well look to experiment in the AIs but when it comes to the 6N and bigger games, I would be amazed if he leaves JJ out.

When the last training squad was announced somebody on here reported that Eddie had given JJ areas of his game to work on. That suggests dissatisfaction to me and implies that in Eddie's opinion his game had deteriorated to the extent that he was not selected for a training camp. I know no more than that but I was surprised that Eddie decided not to work on those problems himself in the camp. At his best, JJ is by far our best OC, IMO, given decent ball. He may remain so in Eddie's book but I doubt it. However, I'd like to be wrong and I hope you are right.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: clever running lines all round. He actually says Toomua is BY FAR the best 12 he's played with....

He may have meant at club level or even just at Leicester, frankly his work with Eastmond still looks better than his partnership with Toomua so far. And perhaps he's thinking Toomua is the best on the basis of their chatting during the week planning how'll attack. Though Toomua is a fine player and they should work well together.

Also, and I don't want to decry ball out the back, but the focus on league does seem to ignore that sometimes ball out in front is a much simpler way to play and they often make their own attack much harder than it needs to be in execution and support.

Whatever he 'meant' it'll certainly create a bit of banter.

and I don't necessarily agree with his views on RL, where I think they could do a lot more in attack, its an inherently conservative game.

Unless you have good territory on phases 3-4 you might as well be so cautious. Not sure rugby should take too much from that, and I don't know I agree with what he seemed to be saying on multiphase/Exeter either. But as you note, it was only a very short article, a shame when it might have been an interesting one had they developed some of the thinking.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

He may have meant at club level or even just at Leicester, frankly his work with Eastmond still looks better than his partnership with Toomua so far. And perhaps he's thinking Toomua is the best on the basis of their chatting during the week planning how'll attack. Though Toomua is a fine player and they should work well together.

Also, and I don't want to decry ball out the back, but the focus on league does seem to ignore that sometimes ball out in front is a much simpler way to play and they often make their own attack much harder than it needs to be in execution and support.

Whatever he 'meant' it'll certainly create a bit of banter.

and I don't necessarily agree with his views on RL, where I think they could do a lot more in attack, its an inherently conservative game.

Unless you have good territory on phases 3-4 you might as well be so cautious. Not sure rugby should take too much from that, and I don't know I agree with what he seemed to be saying on multiphase/Exeter either. But as you note, it was only a very short article, a shame when it might have been an interesting one had they developed some of the thinking.

Yep, as I said, inherently cautious/conservative.....and Union doesn't yet mean you need to be.

Oakboy wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:
How do you know what Eddie ‘seems to think’ about JJ?

He was left out of ONE, early season training squad. Up until that point he’d been in every one of Eddie’s squads and has almost always been the starter when fit.

Some of the points regarding his reduced effecitiveness have an element of truth about them but he’s still managed to be the top try-scorer in the Eddie Jones era by some distance.

Eddie may well look to experiment in the AIs but when it comes to the 6N and bigger games, I would be amazed if he leaves JJ out.

When the last training squad was announced somebody on here reported that Eddie had given JJ areas of his game to work on. That suggests dissatisfaction to me and implies that in Eddie's opinion his game had deteriorated to the extent that he was not selected for a training camp. I know no more than that but I was surprised that Eddie decided not to work on those problems himself in the camp. At his best, JJ is by far our best OC, IMO, given decent ball. He may remain so in Eddie's book but I doubt it. However, I'd like to be wrong and I hope you are right.

Me too! When it comes down to it, I believe Eddie is a pragmatist and I can't see any gain in him alienating a player that has delivered for him. As I said in my previous post, he's the top try scorer under Eddie and at his best, he is widely regarded (not just by us) as genuinely top-class 13.

We also know Eddie likes mind games. In that sense, not selecting JJ may have had the desired effect on his form as he's scored in 2 out of 3 subsequent games and provided a lovely assist for Rokoduguni's try against Wasps.

Not only that, I genuinely don't think we have better options.

For all his qualities, I still don't think Slade is the right option for England at 13. A possible 10, 12, 13 combination of Ford, Farrell and Slade doesn't feel like the right balance IMO and I don't want Ford to be dropped to accommodate moving Farrell to 10. I also think Slade is too mercurial to be relied upon at test level. He is capable of world-class moments of skill (exhibit A - the dummy/kick through in the first test in Argentina), but he's equally capable of being downright poor (see exhibit B - the woeful performance in the second test in Argentina).

Te'o offers a more valuable option in that he'll either break the line or draw defenders almost every time. If it's not JJ, I can live with Te'o at 13, I just think he's one dimensional in comparison. Personally, I'd prefer to see him as an impact sub.

The other option is Daly who Eddie seems to prefer as a winger. I could be wrong, but I don't recall him starting an England game at 13 in the Jones era (or ever?). Right now, he's struggling along with the rest of the Wasps side, so as much as I'd see him as the best/most logical alternative to JJ, I can't see why you would pick him over JJ on current/recent form? I'd still pick him, but in the back three, not in the centre.

It seems to me that JJ is suffering in a Bath team that kick the leather off the ball most of the time and an England team that lacks anyone else to create space by interesting defenders. I can't speak from experience having never played 13, but if you never get the ball, I don't see what you can do to massively influence the game without abandoning where you're supposed to be? Aside from making his tackles and doing what he can to feed of scraps and intercepts, I'm not sure what more can be expected of him?

Scrumhead wrote: Aside from making his tackles and doing what he can to feed of scraps and intercepts, I'm not sure what more can be expected of him?

As Banquo has pointed out several times, JJ is a superb defender. I don't think anyone can have issues with that side of his game. That leaves attack. Recently, for England, he has not been outstanding according to the score-sheet. His opportunities, as you point out, have been limited - largely by what is inside him. I wonder if Eddie has tried to deal with that and has somehow come around to being disappointed with JJ's response. I can only guess obviously.

What I am getting around to is the simple state of affairs that JJ simply might not work with Youngs, Ford and Farrell - in Eddie's opinion (the one that counts!). Could Eddie have asked JJ to do something like switch back inside, go looking for work differently or whatever? Assuming that we HAD to pick those three inside him, what would we ask JJ to do? (I'd tell him to carry on and work on the other three's effectiveness. )

Or, is Eddie's conclusion the simple one that he has to have bosh at 13 with the other three? Maybe, he sees the three as so central to the team's future that either JJ changes or he changes the wearer of the 13 shirt.

I'd deal with the problem by altering what's inside JJ but maybe Eddie simply won't. Time will tell.

At club level, has he had less attacking opportunities than, say, Trinder? The latter finds a way to do something.

I haven't much of JJ's attacking skills on anything like a regular basis for a long time.

I like him as a player, but he just seems a little unimaginative at present. Good player though, don't get me wrong

I’d agree to a point. However, from what I’ve seen, Gloucester play much more ‘ball-in-hand’/expansive rugby than Bath do at the moment.

That may change if Freddie Burns can get in the side and influence their attacking shape a bit more, but right now, I’d say Trinder’s getting a better platform to perform than JJ.

I really rate Trinder. As I said earlier in the thread, I think he could be an outside contender for the EPS if he can stay fit and maintain his form.

Scrumhead wrote:I’d agree to a point. However, from what I’ve seen, Gloucester play much more ‘ball-in-hand’/expansive rugby than Bath do at the moment.

That may change if Freddie Burns can get in the side and influence their attacking shape a bit more, but right now, I’d say Trinder’s getting a better platform to perform than JJ.

I really rate Trinder. As I said earlier in the thread, I think he could be an outside contender for the EPS if he can stay fit and maintain his form.

According to Prem Rugby stats Glaws are at the top in this area (not in terms of success but intent)

2nd - metres gained
2nd - most carries
2nd - clean breaks
1st - most passes
2nd - most tackles

There is no stat for the frequent glos brain fart that counters all of the above unfortunately. But you are essentially right, Ball in hand for Trinder or any of the glos backs has not bee an issue so far this season

Yeah, Bath are playing very mucha territory and defence oriented game at the moment - Equally, JJ has been playing alongside a rookie for most of this season, who hasn't really been attracting defences onto him, whilst Priestland sits pretty deep and distrtibutes - again, not attracting defences onto him.
At Bath, JJ is suffering the same problems I see him having fro England - when he actually gets the ball, he's usually got 1 defender arriving at the same time, and another right there ready to hit him if necessary, or steal the ball if the first man makes the tackle. His wingers usually in an even worse position with a defender of his own to deal with + JJ's second defender ready to drift, and being that much closer to the touchline and (if JJ gets tackled) no-one to support him in the ruck.

As the phases build up, he's playing in (even) heavier traffic as we put a backrow forward wider out, essentially playing the wing at OC and JJ at (essentially) IC.

He's shown pretty well when he stands in at first receiver; and is developing a nice line in grubber kicks through (and a pretty poor line in chips over the top).


Comparing JJ to Trinder; Glos are playing much more ball-in-hand than Bath are; and Twelvetrees keeps defences interested in him a lot more than Clark does; whilst JJ attracts defenders onto himself much more than Trinder does (currently).

Struggling to find reasons for JJ's demotion but i wonder if his underwhelming Lions tour is a factor? Kruis also left out of the last squad after his NZ experience too. Maybe Eddie saw/heard something that he didnt like, particularly as both were expected to be in the test frame. I dunno, its just a thought.

Which Tyler wrote:Yeah, Bath are playing very mucha territory and defence oriented game at the moment - Equally, JJ has been playing alongside a rookie for most of this season, who hasn't really been attracting defences onto him, whilst Priestland sits pretty deep and distrtibutes - again, not attracting defences onto him.
At Bath, JJ is suffering the same problems I see him having fro England - when he actually gets the ball, he's usually got 1 defender arriving at the same time, and another right there ready to hit him if necessary, or steal the ball if the first man makes the tackle. His wingers usually in an even worse position with a defender of his own to deal with + JJ's second defender ready to drift, and being that much closer to the touchline and (if JJ gets tackled) no-one to support him in the ruck.

As the phases build up, he's playing in (even) heavier traffic as we put a backrow forward wider out, essentially playing the wing at OC and JJ at (essentially) IC.

He's shown pretty well when he stands in at first receiver; and is developing a nice line in grubber kicks through (and a pretty poor line in chips over the top).


Comparing JJ to Trinder; Glos are playing much more ball-in-hand than Bath are; and Twelvetrees keeps defences interested in him a lot more than Clark does; whilst JJ attracts defenders onto himself much more than Trinder does (currently).

I hadn’t really thought about the partnership with Clark. I like Clark, but Bath look better with Tapuai at 12.

fivepointer wrote:Struggling to find reasons for JJ's demotion but i wonder if his underwhelming Lions tour is a factor? Kruis also left out of the last squad after his NZ experience too. Maybe Eddie saw/heard something that he didnt like, particularly as both were expected to be in the test frame. I dunno, its just a thought.

Who thought JJ was going to be in the test XV? Plenty thought he should be, but we also knew that he was a 50:50 pick made by Gatland overruling Farrell and Howley. We also knew that he wasn't the sort of centre Gatland usually likes, or is used to coaching / devising game-time for

So the jamboree has ruined an England player. (my typical disdain for the jamboree being of course attenuated in this instance)

Which Tyler wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Struggling to find reasons for JJ's demotion but i wonder if his underwhelming Lions tour is a factor? Kruis also left out of the last squad after his NZ experience too. Maybe Eddie saw/heard something that he didnt like, particularly as both were expected to be in the test frame. I dunno, its just a thought.

Who thought JJ was going to be in the test XV? Plenty thought he should be, but we also knew that he was a 50:50 pick made by Gatland overruling Farrell and Howley. We also knew that he wasn't the sort of centre Gatland usually likes, or is used to coaching / devising game-time for

Plenty of pundits thought the test centres would be Henshaw and JJ. Davies had a poor 6N's and wasnt widely tipped to get a test place. As it turned out neither made it and its surely not a point of great dispute that JJ wasnt anywhere near his best on the tour. I'm suggesting that while his England form was good last season and his early season form for Bath has been perfectly fine, his showing for the Lions may be what has counted against him.

Scrumhead wrote:I’d agree to a point. However, from what I’ve seen, Gloucester play much more ‘ball-in-hand’/expansive rugby than Bath do at the moment.

That may change if Freddie Burns can get in the side and influence their attacking shape a bit more, but right now, I’d say Trinder’s getting a better platform to perform than JJ.

I really rate Trinder. As I said earlier in the thread, I think he could be an outside contender for the EPS if he can stay fit and maintain his form.

I also really rate Trinder, but I suspect he's going to be injured again in about a fortnight. Fantastic player, but built from the same stained glass as Sinbad.

I'm sure I remember him being talked of as favourite for the 13 shirt to start Bomber's first 6N, before his leg fell off or something.

fivepointer wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Struggling to find reasons for JJ's demotion but i wonder if his underwhelming Lions tour is a factor? Kruis also left out of the last squad after his NZ experience too. Maybe Eddie saw/heard something that he didnt like, particularly as both were expected to be in the test frame. I dunno, its just a thought.

Who thought JJ was going to be in the test XV? Plenty thought he should be, but we also knew that he was a 50:50 pick made by Gatland overruling Farrell and Howley. We also knew that he wasn't the sort of centre Gatland usually likes, or is used to coaching / devising game-time for

Plenty of pundits thought the test centres would be Henshaw and JJ. Davies had a poor 6N's and wasnt widely tipped to get a test place. As it turned out neither made it and its surely not a point of great dispute that JJ wasnt anywhere near his best on the tour. I'm suggesting that while his England form was good last season and his early season form for Bath has been perfectly fine, his showing for the Lions may be what has counted against him.

I get the feeling that Lions form means nothing to Jones. In any case, JJ did not get a chance to shine in the midweek XV. Overall, he has been a very good player for England, and probably does not deserve to be left out of the squad. Who is a current better all-round 13?

I struggle to consider anyone thought JJ would get into a Gatland side. He'd have been a contender in just a Lions side though, at least I can't think of a better centre, but he's not big enough for Gats