RugbyRebels

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:One was missed during parliament when they could have got a second referendum through if Labour had co-operated; they also could have made genuine headway in more Tory remain seats and other marginals by actually being serious on tactical voting. The other thing they colectively shouldn't have done was agree to an election. Boris has played a blinder (been a bit sick in my mouth there), but been helped along the way.

Yes, they really, really should have been able to compromise during the last parliament and form a GNU, even if only to force a 2nd referendum.

Tactical voting - I saw somewhere that it would have made a difference in 18 seats - so not enough (though had they formed a pact, then it may have been more, as they were often attacking each other, so it wouldn't be a simply vote swap)

I personally agree that they shouldn't have agreed to this election, but... Cockwomble was pretty good at blaming the deadlocked government on the opposition for doing their jobs; and it's easily possible they would have lost even more support had they delayed the election even longer without actually taking power to themselves in a GNU.

I'd add that there was also a fair bit of naivete about how effective Cockwombles lie-and-hide routine was actually going to be (and how ineffective the labour "but the NHS" battlecray ended up being)

Banquo wrote:Opinium nailed it btw

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:Opinium nailed it btw

This one?

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:Opinium nailed it btw

This one?

No, I meant their last generic poll.

Separately this from Wes Streeting

https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/ ... r-results/

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: This one?

No, I meant their last generic poll.

Separately this from Wes Streeting

https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/ ... r-results/

Sorry. Should’ve inserted the tongue-in-cheek emoji.

Sandydragon wrote:I wonder if the Liberals and Labour are regretting voting against Mays deal? If that deal had passed, Brexit would have been lesss of a factor in the subsequent election, May would still have been useless and both Labour and the Liberals could have painted themselves as putting national interest first by cooperating to restrain the ERG.

Sandydragon wrote:Read the polling. Corbyn was and is seen as a joke. Many traditional Tory supporters would have voted for a Blair type labour leader, but could not bring themselves to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of nutters. It’s staring you in the face, corbyn is unelectable.

morepork wrote:Blair electable, Corbyn unelectable.

Something is wrong with the public. At least you now have a nice posh boy at the helm now.

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:Opinium nailed it btw

This one?

Mellsblue wrote:Further proof it wasn’t just Brexit:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Further proof it wasn’t just Brexit:

Not so convincing, since Labour had the same leadership in 2017.

A good case can be made for the problem here being due to Labour's half-hearted Brexit positioning. Had they taken a clear remain with second referendum position in March this year I think the Lib Dems would never have recovered from their low ebb. And indeed their half-hearted Brexit positioning was probably largely down to Corbyn. I think I made the point a few months back that if only Corbyn had been a remainer, things would have been quite different - ie Labour would never have lost a chunk of support to the Lib Dems. And their "leadership" would have looked better/clearer.

Mellsblue wrote:Further proof it wasn’t just Brexit:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Read the polling. Corbyn was and is seen as a joke. Many traditional Tory supporters would have voted for a Blair type labour leader, but could not bring themselves to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of nutters. It’s staring you in the face, corbyn is unelectable.

Unelected is not unelectable. It depends on the circumstances. But, yes, I can imagine better candidates. Would they have won on a remain ticket, with remain split? Maybe, maybe not.

And do you mean Corbyn or any similarly left-wing candidate?

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Further proof it wasn’t just Brexit:

Not so convincing, since Labour had the same leadership in 2017.

A good case can be made for the problem here being due to Labour's half-hearted Brexit positioning. Had they taken a clear remain with second referendum position in March this year I think the Lib Dems would never have recovered from their low ebb. And indeed their half-hearted Brexit positioning was probably largely down to Corbyn. I think I made the point a few months back that if only Corbyn had been a remainer, things would have been quite different - ie Labour would never have lost a chunk of support to the Lib Dems. And their "leadership" would have looked better/clearer.

Banquo wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Further proof it wasn’t just Brexit:

Not so convincing, since Labour had the same leadership in 2017.

A good case can be made for the problem here being due to Labour's half-hearted Brexit positioning. Had they taken a clear remain with second referendum position in March this year I think the Lib Dems would never have recovered from their low ebb. And indeed their half-hearted Brexit positioning was probably largely down to Corbyn. I think I made the point a few months back that if only Corbyn had been a remainer, things would have been quite different - ie Labour would never have lost a chunk of support to the Lib Dems. And their "leadership" would have looked better/clearer.

Not directly related, but Jack Straw was adamant that Remain would have won in 2016 had Jezza backed it wholeheartedly, rather than being forced to endorse it; as he said, I've known Jeremy for 50 years and he's never wanted to be in the EU. Conversely, it was McDpnnell who 'created' Labours current position.

More on topic, it was the same leaders in 2017, but they were fresh and different then; familiarity has bred contempt for Jezza imo, and over-indexing on the manifesto appears to have backfired through questions of affordability, doability or even just being confused.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Not so convincing, since Labour had the same leadership in 2017.

A good case can be made for the problem here being due to Labour's half-hearted Brexit positioning. Had they taken a clear remain with second referendum position in March this year I think the Lib Dems would never have recovered from their low ebb. And indeed their half-hearted Brexit positioning was probably largely down to Corbyn. I think I made the point a few months back that if only Corbyn had been a remainer, things would have been quite different - ie Labour would never have lost a chunk of support to the Lib Dems. And their "leadership" would have looked better/clearer.

Not directly related, but Jack Straw was adamant that Remain would have won in 2016 had Jezza backed it wholeheartedly, rather than being forced to endorse it; as he said, I've known Jeremy for 50 years and he's never wanted to be in the EU. Conversely, it was McDpnnell who 'created' Labours current position.

More on topic, it was the same leaders in 2017, but they were fresh and different then; familiarity has bred contempt for Jezza imo, and over-indexing on the manifesto appears to have backfired through questions of affordability, doability or even just being confused.

True, Corbyn was fresher then. Also he took the newspapers by surprise since they didn't take him seriously at first.

Corbyn 2019 had had an extra 2.5 years of continual character assassination from most of the newspapers, and not a lot of help from the BBC either.

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Read the polling. Corbyn was and is seen as a joke. Many traditional Tory supporters would have voted for a Blair type labour leader, but could not bring themselves to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of nutters. It’s staring you in the face, corbyn is unelectable.

Unelected is not unelectable. It depends on the circumstances. But, yes, I can imagine better candidates. Would they have won on a remain ticket, with remain split? Maybe, maybe not.

And do you mean Corbyn or any similarly left-wing candidate?

I think a left wing candidate will struggle in general to poll much beyond labours core vote. Add Corbyns perceived lack of patriotism and even labour core voters were pissed off.

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Banquo wrote:
Not directly related, but Jack Straw was adamant that Remain would have won in 2016 had Jezza backed it wholeheartedly, rather than being forced to endorse it; as he said, I've known Jeremy for 50 years and he's never wanted to be in the EU. Conversely, it was McDpnnell who 'created' Labours current position.

More on topic, it was the same leaders in 2017, but they were fresh and different then; familiarity has bred contempt for Jezza imo, and over-indexing on the manifesto appears to have backfired through questions of affordability, doability or even just being confused.

True, Corbyn was fresher then. Also he took the newspapers by surprise since they didn't take him seriously at first.

Corbyn 2019 had had an extra 2.5 years of continual character assassination from most of the newspapers, and not a lot of help from the BBC either.

And 2.5 years of getting a pasting for not taking anti semnitism seriously.