Snap General Election called

[Banquo]

People do double down when they feel things are unfairly maligned.

The Labour manifesto is not terrible. It has holes, but it's not as bad as the Tory manifesto.

Let's not pretend any number of people read either document. They didn't.

we'll have to disagree, I don't think it is unfairly maligned. Its a very long wish list, and the 'red wall' smelt a rat (you are likely right to say it wasn't read, but they heard all the headlines, and know there is no such thing as a free lunch), disliked Corbyn hugely, and likely most importantly felt cheated by (the perception that) Labour blocking Brexit, and ant-semitism played a part too (I know that gets dismissed as media smears on here, but the lived experience of the likes of Berger, Ellman, Hodge, and Smeeth really can't be ignored). All of this played a part in getting people who would never normally dream of voting Tory ticking the box (and a lot did, notwithstanding Brexit party polling high in some seats); this isn't just my view, but what the likes of Yvette Cooper, John Mann, Ruth Smeeth and others said. I do know from a lobbyist that the Tory manifesto was deliberately simple/sh*t, making sure that only one message was remembered, and that McDonnell/Corbyn/clique went large on the manifesto against policy advisor advice and without involving people like Ashworth (not in the inner circle).

battle being played out tween moderate Labour and Corbynite factions on TV; moderates blaming Corbyn and manifesto (and how hard it was to message),Corbynites solely blaming Brexit.

Gina Miller was very articulate about tactical voting too- it was talked about a lot, but a lot of potential libdem voters switched in the booth as they didn't want to enable a Corbhyn govt. These would likely be Tory remainers I suppose; similarly Libdem voters not giving Labour a leg up.

I agree its been poxy, dispiriting campaign; perhaps the second most dispiriting part was how poor the opposition other than the SNP have performed, when it should have been an open goal (the first being the tawdry elements of the Tory campaign)

(also- turnout)

You're really telling me that people in the midlands and north, in Brexit voting heartlands, cared 1 iota about anti-semitism?

And I still fail to see how any other Labour leader could have faired any better unless they campaigned on Leave, and then this election wouldn't have happened!

If you asked those people why they voted how they voted, you will get Brexit, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser (which is a media thing, not a reality), Labour will cost us £2,400 more a year (another lie, and nothing to do with Corbyn again), and so on.

None of which is the fault of Corbyn.

Yes, he's not been a very good leader all in all, but you cannot pin this election on him. Only a leave Labour leader could have won, and then there would have been no election in the first place!

And, also, I didn't say it was unfairly maligned, I said when someone FEELS it's unfairly maligned.

Cripes, you don't think much of Labour heartland voters do you. I'll tell you I spend years up north, being born to poor working class on one side and lower middle class on the other northern (Lancs and `yorks) families, and I can tell you they were very sensitive to anti-semitism as a legacy of the war. I'd be pretty ashamed if it didn't bother a lot of folks in the country, and in any case I 'only' said it played a part in Labour voters going tory. Probably outside the red wall too.

You can happily ignore all the feedback about the doorstep animosity to Corbyn- but its pretty overwhelming from Labour MPs, ex Labour MPs and even the Guardian. A clear position from him on Brexit might have helped- there was a spat apparently between him and McDonnell.

You also ignored what I said; I didn't pin it on him exclusively, in fact said Brexit was likely the most important factor. I specifically said it was a number of issues- and even the Grauniad agrees, apart from skipping over anti-semitism specifically.

Fair enough on the manifesto- again criticised by the grauniad- but the way you framed it looked like you felt it was unfair criticism and you did defend it-ish; I wouldn't have replied otherwise.

[Stom]

we'll have to disagree, I don't think it is unfairly maligned. Its a very long wish list, and the 'red wall' smelt a rat (you are likely right to say it wasn't read, but they heard all the headlines, and know there is no such thing as a free lunch), disliked Corbyn hugely, and likely most importantly felt cheated by (the perception that) Labour blocking Brexit, and ant-semitism played a part too (I know that gets dismissed as media smears on here, but the lived experience of the likes of Berger, Ellman, Hodge, and Smeeth really can't be ignored). All of this played a part in getting people who would never normally dream of voting Tory ticking the box (and a lot did, notwithstanding Brexit party polling high in some seats); this isn't just my view, but what the likes of Yvette Cooper, John Mann, Ruth Smeeth and others said. I do know from a lobbyist that the Tory manifesto was deliberately simple/sh*t, making sure that only one message was remembered, and that McDonnell/Corbyn/clique went large on the manifesto against policy advisor advice and without involving people like Ashworth (not in the inner circle).

battle being played out tween moderate Labour and Corbynite factions on TV; moderates blaming Corbyn and manifesto (and how hard it was to message),Corbynites solely blaming Brexit.

Gina Miller was very articulate about tactical voting too- it was talked about a lot, but a lot of potential libdem voters switched in the booth as they didn't want to enable a Corbhyn govt. These would likely be Tory remainers I suppose; similarly Libdem voters not giving Labour a leg up.

I agree its been poxy, dispiriting campaign; perhaps the second most dispiriting part was how poor the opposition other than the SNP have performed, when it should have been an open goal (the first being the tawdry elements of the Tory campaign)

(also- turnout)

You're really telling me that people in the midlands and north, in Brexit voting heartlands, cared 1 iota about anti-semitism?

And I still fail to see how any other Labour leader could have faired any better unless they campaigned on Leave, and then this election wouldn't have happened!

If you asked those people why they voted how they voted, you will get Brexit, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser (which is a media thing, not a reality), Labour will cost us £2,400 more a year (another lie, and nothing to do with Corbyn again), and so on.

None of which is the fault of Corbyn.

Yes, he's not been a very good leader all in all, but you cannot pin this election on him. Only a leave Labour leader could have won, and then there would have been no election in the first place!

And, also, I didn't say it was unfairly maligned, I said when someone FEELS it's unfairly maligned.

Cripes, you don't think much of Labour heartland voters do you. I'll tell you I spend years up north, being born to poor working class on one side and lower middle class on the other northern (Lancs and `yorks) families, and I can tell you they were very sensitive to anti-semitism as a legacy of the war. I'd be pretty ashamed if it didn't bother a lot of folks in the country, and in any case I 'only' said it played a part in Labour voters going tory. Probably outside the red wall too.

You can happily ignore all the feedback about the doorstep animosity to Corbyn- but its pretty overwhelming from Labour MPs, ex Labour MPs and even the Guardian. A clear position from him on Brexit might have helped- there was a spat apparently between him and McDonnell.

You also ignored what I said; I didn't pin it on him exclusively, in fact said Brexit was likely the most important factor. I specifically said it was a number of issues- and even the Grauniad agrees, apart from skipping over anti-semitism specifically.

Fair enough on the manifesto- again criticised by the grauniad- but the way you framed it looked like you felt it was unfair criticism and you did defend it-ish; I wouldn't have replied otherwise.

On the manifesto, it's the closest to what I would do.

But I wasn't trying to defend it, I was trying to explain the reaction of people who felt attacked.

[Banquo]

You're really telling me that people in the midlands and north, in Brexit voting heartlands, cared 1 iota about anti-semitism?

And I still fail to see how any other Labour leader could have faired any better unless they campaigned on Leave, and then this election wouldn't have happened!

If you asked those people why they voted how they voted, you will get Brexit, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser (which is a media thing, not a reality), Labour will cost us £2,400 more a year (another lie, and nothing to do with Corbyn again), and so on.

None of which is the fault of Corbyn.

Yes, he's not been a very good leader all in all, but you cannot pin this election on him. Only a leave Labour leader could have won, and then there would have been no election in the first place!

And, also, I didn't say it was unfairly maligned, I said when someone FEELS it's unfairly maligned.

Cripes, you don't think much of Labour heartland voters do you. I'll tell you I spend years up north, being born to poor working class on one side and lower middle class on the other northern (Lancs and `yorks) families, and I can tell you they were very sensitive to anti-semitism as a legacy of the war. I'd be pretty ashamed if it didn't bother a lot of folks in the country, and in any case I 'only' said it played a part in Labour voters going tory. Probably outside the red wall too.

You can happily ignore all the feedback about the doorstep animosity to Corbyn- but its pretty overwhelming from Labour MPs, ex Labour MPs and even the Guardian. A clear position from him on Brexit might have helped- there was a spat apparently between him and McDonnell.

You also ignored what I said; I didn't pin it on him exclusively, in fact said Brexit was likely the most important factor. I specifically said it was a number of issues- and even the Grauniad agrees, apart from skipping over anti-semitism specifically.

Fair enough on the manifesto- again criticised by the grauniad- but the way you framed it looked like you felt it was unfair criticism and you did defend it-ish; I wouldn't have replied otherwise.

On the manifesto, it's the closest to what I would do.

But I wasn't trying to defend it, I was trying to explain the reaction of people who felt attacked.

fair dinkum. I like some/ a lot of the ideas in the manifesto. It was just far too much, too quickly, and in some cases unnecessarily, to be really credible- you mentioned British Broadband, which was a- mad, and b- doubled in annual costs between announcement and grey book- and then crdibility further knocked by successive announcements. As I said, a more grounded, less ideological approach would have grabbed more moderate remainers; I will grant that they had painted themselves in a corner on Brexit, and the messaging was not easily delivered on the doorstep. IMO the potential alliance missed two golden opportunities for an utterly different outcome- to some extent, this result was self inflicted. I really really hope Labour find a way of being really effective and come up with ways to package their offers and vision- sh*t ton of good ideas.

[Stom]

Cripes, you don't think much of Labour heartland voters do you. I'll tell you I spend years up north, being born to poor working class on one side and lower middle class on the other northern (Lancs and `yorks) families, and I can tell you they were very sensitive to anti-semitism as a legacy of the war. I'd be pretty ashamed if it didn't bother a lot of folks in the country, and in any case I 'only' said it played a part in Labour voters going tory. Probably outside the red wall too.

You can happily ignore all the feedback about the doorstep animosity to Corbyn- but its pretty overwhelming from Labour MPs, ex Labour MPs and even the Guardian. A clear position from him on Brexit might have helped- there was a spat apparently between him and McDonnell.

You also ignored what I said; I didn't pin it on him exclusively, in fact said Brexit was likely the most important factor. I specifically said it was a number of issues- and even the Grauniad agrees, apart from skipping over anti-semitism specifically.

Fair enough on the manifesto- again criticised by the grauniad- but the way you framed it looked like you felt it was unfair criticism and you did defend it-ish; I wouldn't have replied otherwise.

On the manifesto, it's the closest to what I would do.

But I wasn't trying to defend it, I was trying to explain the reaction of people who felt attacked.

fair dinkum. I like some/ a lot of the ideas in the manifesto. It was just far too much, too quickly, and in some cases unnecessarily, to be really credible- you mentioned British Broadband, which was a- mad, and b- doubled in annual costs between announcement and grey book- and then crdibility further knocked by successive announcements. As I said, a more grounded, less ideological approach would have grabbed more moderate remainers; I will grant that they had painted themselves in a corner on Brexit, and the messaging was not easily delivered on the doorstep. IMO the potential alliance missed two golden opportunities for an utterly different outcome- to some extent, this result was self inflicted. I really really hope Labour find a way of being really effective and come up with ways to package their offers and vision- sh*t ton of good ideas.

Did they?

The election was lost in the leave constituencies. Are you saying they would have voted differently?

This election was effectively lost the moment Nick Clegg got into bed with the Tories to give them power.

[Banquo]

On the manifesto, it's the closest to what I would do.

But I wasn't trying to defend it, I was trying to explain the reaction of people who felt attacked.

fair dinkum. I like some/ a lot of the ideas in the manifesto. It was just far too much, too quickly, and in some cases unnecessarily, to be really credible- you mentioned British Broadband, which was a- mad, and b- doubled in annual costs between announcement and grey book- and then crdibility further knocked by successive announcements. As I said, a more grounded, less ideological approach would have grabbed more moderate remainers; I will grant that they had painted themselves in a corner on Brexit, and the messaging was not easily delivered on the doorstep. IMO the potential alliance missed two golden opportunities for an utterly different outcome- to some extent, this result was self inflicted. I really really hope Labour find a way of being really effective and come up with ways to package their offers and vision- sh*t ton of good ideas.

Did they?

The election was lost in the leave constituencies. Are you saying they would have voted differently?

This election was effectively lost the moment Nick Clegg got into bed with the Tories to give them power.

One was missed during parliament when they could have got a second referendum through if Labour had co-operated; they also could have made genuine headway in more Tory remain seats and other marginals by actually being serious on tactical voting. The other thing they colectively shouldn't have done was agree to an election. Boris has played a blinder (been a bit sick in my mouth there), but been helped along the way.

[Which Tyler]

One was missed during parliament when they could have got a second referendum through if Labour had co-operated; they also could have made genuine headway in more Tory remain seats and other marginals by actually being serious on tactical voting. The other thing they colectively shouldn't have done was agree to an election. Boris has played a blinder (been a bit sick in my mouth there), but been helped along the way.

Yes, they really, really should have been able to compromise during the last parliament and form a GNU, even if only to force a 2nd referendum.

Tactical voting - I saw somewhere that it would have made a difference in 18 seats - so not enough (though had they formed a pact, then it may have been more, as they were often attacking each other, so it wouldn't be a simply vote swap)

I personally agree that they shouldn't have agreed to this election, but... Cockwomble was pretty good at blaming the deadlocked government on the opposition for doing their jobs; and it's easily possible they would have lost even more support had they delayed the election even longer without actually taking power to themselves in a GNU.

I'd add that there was also a fair bit of naivete about how effective Cockwombles lie-and-hide routine was actually going to be (and how ineffective the labour "but the NHS" battlecray ended up being)

[Sandydragon]

Whole thing leaves me thinking that the only sensible thing to do now as a vaguely left leaning individual of any colour is to join the labour party so at least you get a vote on the next party leader.

There's a hell of a lot more moderates who want Labour closer to the centre than denialist JC fanboys who think that Rebecca Long-Bailey is the obvious next step.

Hopefully some of the momentum fanatics will become disillusioned and bugger off back to their old haunts and labour can tack back to left centre. This must be a wake up call for the future of their party, their socialist agenda has been annihilated. Whilst they will never accept that, those with functioning reasoning skills will hopefully begin the long road back and at least provide effective opposition.

[Sandydragon]

People do double down when they feel things are unfairly maligned.

The Labour manifesto is not terrible. It has holes, but it's not as bad as the Tory manifesto.

Let's not pretend any number of people read either document. They didn't.

we'll have to disagree, I don't think it is unfairly maligned. Its a very long wish list, and the 'red wall' smelt a rat (you are likely right to say it wasn't read, but they heard all the headlines, and know there is no such thing as a free lunch), disliked Corbyn hugely, and likely most importantly felt cheated by (the perception that) Labour blocking Brexit, and ant-semitism played a part too (I know that gets dismissed as media smears on here, but the lived experience of the likes of Berger, Ellman, Hodge, and Smeeth really can't be ignored). All of this played a part in getting people who would never normally dream of voting Tory ticking the box (and a lot did, notwithstanding Brexit party polling high in some seats); this isn't just my view, but what the likes of Yvette Cooper, John Mann, Ruth Smeeth and others said. I do know from a lobbyist that the Tory manifesto was deliberately simple/sh*t, making sure that only one message was remembered, and that McDonnell/Corbyn/clique went large on the manifesto against policy advisor advice and without involving people like Ashworth (not in the inner circle).

battle being played out tween moderate Labour and Corbynite factions on TV; moderates blaming Corbyn and manifesto (and how hard it was to message),Corbynites solely blaming Brexit.

Gina Miller was very articulate about tactical voting too- it was talked about a lot, but a lot of potential libdem voters switched in the booth as they didn't want to enable a Corbhyn govt. These would likely be Tory remainers I suppose; similarly Libdem voters not giving Labour a leg up.

I agree its been poxy, dispiriting campaign; perhaps the second most dispiriting part was how poor the opposition other than the SNP have performed, when it should have been an open goal (the first being the tawdry elements of the Tory campaign)

(also- turnout)

You're really telling me that people in the midlands and north, in Brexit voting heartlands, cared 1 iota about anti-semitism?

And I still fail to see how any other Labour leader could have faired any better unless they campaigned on Leave, and then this election wouldn't have happened!

If you asked those people why they voted how they voted, you will get Brexit, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser (which is a media thing, not a reality), Labour will cost us £2,400 more a year (another lie, and nothing to do with Corbyn again), and so on.

None of which is the fault of Corbyn.

Yes, he's not been a very good leader all in all, but you cannot pin this election on him. Only a leave Labour leader could have won, and then there would have been no election in the first place!

And, also, I didn't say it was unfairly maligned, I said when someone FEELS it's unfairly maligned.

Read the polling. Corbyn was and is seen as a joke. Many traditional Tory supporters would have voted for a Blair type labour leader, but could not bring themselves to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of nutters. It’s staring you in the face, corbyn is unelectable.

[Sandydragon]

On the manifesto, it's the closest to what I would do.

But I wasn't trying to defend it, I was trying to explain the reaction of people who felt attacked.

fair dinkum. I like some/ a lot of the ideas in the manifesto. It was just far too much, too quickly, and in some cases unnecessarily, to be really credible- you mentioned British Broadband, which was a- mad, and b- doubled in annual costs between announcement and grey book- and then crdibility further knocked by successive announcements. As I said, a more grounded, less ideological approach would have grabbed more moderate remainers; I will grant that they had painted themselves in a corner on Brexit, and the messaging was not easily delivered on the doorstep. IMO the potential alliance missed two golden opportunities for an utterly different outcome- to some extent, this result was self inflicted. I really really hope Labour find a way of being really effective and come up with ways to package their offers and vision- sh*t ton of good ideas.

Did they?

The election was lost in the leave constituencies. Are you saying they would have voted differently?

This election was effectively lost the moment Nick Clegg got into bed with the Tories to give them power.

Err no. This election was lost when Labour decided to tack very hard to the left following the 2010 defeat. Ed Milliband started it, Corbyn has finished it, a defeat disguised by the utter poor performance of May.

[Sandydragon]

I wonder if the Liberals and Labour are regretting voting against Mays deal? If that deal had passed, Brexit would have been lesss of a factor in the subsequent election, May would still have been useless and both Labour and the Liberals could have painted themselves as putting national interest first by cooperating to restrain the ERG.

[Banquo]

One was missed during parliament when they could have got a second referendum through if Labour had co-operated; they also could have made genuine headway in more Tory remain seats and other marginals by actually being serious on tactical voting. The other thing they colectively shouldn't have done was agree to an election. Boris has played a blinder (been a bit sick in my mouth there), but been helped along the way.

Yes, they really, really should have been able to compromise during the last parliament and form a GNU, even if only to force a 2nd referendum.

Tactical voting - I saw somewhere that it would have made a difference in 18 seats - so not enough (though had they formed a pact, then it may have been more, as they were often attacking each other, so it wouldn't be a simply vote swap)

I personally agree that they shouldn't have agreed to this election, but... Cockwomble was pretty good at blaming the deadlocked government on the opposition for doing their jobs; and it's easily possible they would have lost even more support had they delayed the election even longer without actually taking power to themselves in a GNU.

I'd add that there was also a fair bit of naivete about how effective Cockwombles lie-and-hide routine was actually going to be (and how ineffective the labour "but the NHS" battlecray ended up being)

Yes, bit tired so should have linked tactical voting with a 'better campaign from the Lib Dems', their revoke pledge drove remain tories 'back' to the tories imo; had they held onto vote share in the sarf, there could have been (more) damage done like St Albans; so really the golden opportunity was missed by the Libdems (having a new leader with no time to get liked, if that was doable, really harmed them alongside Revoke). "golden opportunity' might be slightly OTT

[Banquo]

Opinium nailed it btw

[Banquo]

Check out Wes Streeting tearing his party a new one on iplayer! Jeez- said Corbynites are blaming Brexit in order to 'kneecap' leaderships remain contenders like Starmer and Thornberry.

Now Jack Straw. Its all coming out about the Unions and Momentum. I guess we knew, but never been so directly that I can remember.

[morepork]

Blair electable, Corbyn unelectable.


Something is wrong with the public. At least you now have a nice posh boy at the helm now.

[Mellsblue]

Opinium nailed it btw

This one?

[Mellsblue]

Further proof it wasn’t just Brexit:

[Banquo]

Opinium nailed it btw

This one?

No, I meant their last generic poll.

Separately this from Wes Streeting

https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/ ... r-results/

[Mellsblue]

Opinium nailed it btw

This one?

No, I meant their last generic poll.

Separately this from Wes Streeting

https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/ ... r-results/

Sorry. Should’ve inserted the tongue-in-cheek emoji.

[Banquo]

This one?

No, I meant their last generic poll.

Separately this from Wes Streeting

https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/ ... r-results/

Sorry. Should’ve inserted the tongue-in-cheek emoji.

Yep should have spotted what you did there...

[paddy no 11]

terrible times ahead - good luck all

[Son of Mathonwy]

I wonder if the Liberals and Labour are regretting voting against Mays deal? If that deal had passed, Brexit would have been lesss of a factor in the subsequent election, May would still have been useless and both Labour and the Liberals could have painted themselves as putting national interest first by cooperating to restrain the ERG.

With 20-20 hindsight, obviously there are several decisions that would have been made differently. But without the ability to predict the future...?

[Son of Mathonwy]

Read the polling. Corbyn was and is seen as a joke. Many traditional Tory supporters would have voted for a Blair type labour leader, but could not bring themselves to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of nutters. It’s staring you in the face, corbyn is unelectable.

Unelected is not unelectable. It depends on the circumstances. But, yes, I can imagine better candidates. Would they have won on a remain ticket, with remain split? Maybe, maybe not.

And do you mean Corbyn or any similarly left-wing candidate?

[Son of Mathonwy]

Blair electable, Corbyn unelectable.

Something is wrong with the public. At least you now have a nice posh boy at the helm now.

Indeed.

In fact, I'd even go as far as saying Boris is better than Blair.

And Boris makes me want to throw up. He's despicable.

But (at least, to date) Blair is even worse. What he did to an entire country, the hundreds of thousands of deaths (maybe a million even?), the destabilisation of a region, the empowering of terrorism, the personal enrichment, is on a different level of evil.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Opinium nailed it btw

This one?

That's pretty damning.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Further proof it wasn’t just Brexit:

Not so convincing, since Labour had the same leadership in 2017.

A good case can be made for the problem here being due to Labour's half-hearted Brexit positioning. Had they taken a clear remain with second referendum position in March this year I think the Lib Dems would never have recovered from their low ebb. And indeed their half-hearted Brexit positioning was probably largely down to Corbyn. I think I made the point a few months back that if only Corbyn had been a remainer, things would have been quite different - ie Labour would never have lost a chunk of support to the Lib Dems. And their "leadership" would have looked better/clearer.