RugbyRebels

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
People do double down when they feel things are unfairly maligned.

The Labour manifesto is not terrible. It has holes, but it's not as bad as the Tory manifesto.

Let's not pretend any number of people read either document. They didn't.

we'll have to disagree, I don't think it is unfairly maligned. Its a very long wish list, and the 'red wall' smelt a rat (you are likely right to say it wasn't read, but they heard all the headlines, and know there is no such thing as a free lunch), disliked Corbyn hugely, and likely most importantly felt cheated by (the perception that) Labour blocking Brexit, and ant-semitism played a part too (I know that gets dismissed as media smears on here, but the lived experience of the likes of Berger, Ellman, Hodge, and Smeeth really can't be ignored). All of this played a part in getting people who would never normally dream of voting Tory ticking the box (and a lot did, notwithstanding Brexit party polling high in some seats); this isn't just my view, but what the likes of Yvette Cooper, John Mann, Ruth Smeeth and others said. I do know from a lobbyist that the Tory manifesto was deliberately simple/sh*t, making sure that only one message was remembered, and that McDonnell/Corbyn/clique went large on the manifesto against policy advisor advice and without involving people like Ashworth (not in the inner circle).

battle being played out tween moderate Labour and Corbynite factions on TV; moderates blaming Corbyn and manifesto (and how hard it was to message),Corbynites solely blaming Brexit.

Gina Miller was very articulate about tactical voting too- it was talked about a lot, but a lot of potential libdem voters switched in the booth as they didn't want to enable a Corbhyn govt. These would likely be Tory remainers I suppose; similarly Libdem voters not giving Labour a leg up.

I agree its been poxy, dispiriting campaign; perhaps the second most dispiriting part was how poor the opposition other than the SNP have performed, when it should have been an open goal (the first being the tawdry elements of the Tory campaign)

(also- turnout)

You're really telling me that people in the midlands and north, in Brexit voting heartlands, cared 1 iota about anti-semitism?

And I still fail to see how any other Labour leader could have faired any better unless they campaigned on Leave, and then this election wouldn't have happened!

If you asked those people why they voted how they voted, you will get Brexit, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser (which is a media thing, not a reality), Labour will cost us £2,400 more a year (another lie, and nothing to do with Corbyn again), and so on.

None of which is the fault of Corbyn.

Yes, he's not been a very good leader all in all, but you cannot pin this election on him. Only a leave Labour leader could have won, and then there would have been no election in the first place!

And, also, I didn't say it was unfairly maligned, I said when someone FEELS it's unfairly maligned.

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote: we'll have to disagree, I don't think it is unfairly maligned. Its a very long wish list, and the 'red wall' smelt a rat (you are likely right to say it wasn't read, but they heard all the headlines, and know there is no such thing as a free lunch), disliked Corbyn hugely, and likely most importantly felt cheated by (the perception that) Labour blocking Brexit, and ant-semitism played a part too (I know that gets dismissed as media smears on here, but the lived experience of the likes of Berger, Ellman, Hodge, and Smeeth really can't be ignored). All of this played a part in getting people who would never normally dream of voting Tory ticking the box (and a lot did, notwithstanding Brexit party polling high in some seats); this isn't just my view, but what the likes of Yvette Cooper, John Mann, Ruth Smeeth and others said. I do know from a lobbyist that the Tory manifesto was deliberately simple/sh*t, making sure that only one message was remembered, and that McDonnell/Corbyn/clique went large on the manifesto against policy advisor advice and without involving people like Ashworth (not in the inner circle).

battle being played out tween moderate Labour and Corbynite factions on TV; moderates blaming Corbyn and manifesto (and how hard it was to message),Corbynites solely blaming Brexit.

Gina Miller was very articulate about tactical voting too- it was talked about a lot, but a lot of potential libdem voters switched in the booth as they didn't want to enable a Corbhyn govt. These would likely be Tory remainers I suppose; similarly Libdem voters not giving Labour a leg up.

I agree its been poxy, dispiriting campaign; perhaps the second most dispiriting part was how poor the opposition other than the SNP have performed, when it should have been an open goal (the first being the tawdry elements of the Tory campaign)

(also- turnout)

You're really telling me that people in the midlands and north, in Brexit voting heartlands, cared 1 iota about anti-semitism?

And I still fail to see how any other Labour leader could have faired any better unless they campaigned on Leave, and then this election wouldn't have happened!

If you asked those people why they voted how they voted, you will get Brexit, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser (which is a media thing, not a reality), Labour will cost us £2,400 more a year (another lie, and nothing to do with Corbyn again), and so on.

None of which is the fault of Corbyn.

Yes, he's not been a very good leader all in all, but you cannot pin this election on him. Only a leave Labour leader could have won, and then there would have been no election in the first place!

And, also, I didn't say it was unfairly maligned, I said when someone FEELS it's unfairly maligned.

Cripes, you don't think much of Labour heartland voters do you. I'll tell you I spend years up north, being born to poor working class on one side and lower middle class on the other northern (Lancs and `yorks) families, and I can tell you they were very sensitive to anti-semitism as a legacy of the war. I'd be pretty ashamed if it didn't bother a lot of folks in the country, and in any case I 'only' said it played a part in Labour voters going tory. Probably outside the red wall too.

You can happily ignore all the feedback about the doorstep animosity to Corbyn- but its pretty overwhelming from Labour MPs, ex Labour MPs and even the Guardian. A clear position from him on Brexit might have helped- there was a spat apparently between him and McDonnell.

You also ignored what I said; I didn't pin it on him exclusively, in fact said Brexit was likely the most important factor. I specifically said it was a number of issues- and even the Grauniad agrees, apart from skipping over anti-semitism specifically.

Fair enough on the manifesto- again criticised by the grauniad- but the way you framed it looked like you felt it was unfair criticism and you did defend it-ish; I wouldn't have replied otherwise.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
You're really telling me that people in the midlands and north, in Brexit voting heartlands, cared 1 iota about anti-semitism?

And I still fail to see how any other Labour leader could have faired any better unless they campaigned on Leave, and then this election wouldn't have happened!

If you asked those people why they voted how they voted, you will get Brexit, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser (which is a media thing, not a reality), Labour will cost us £2,400 more a year (another lie, and nothing to do with Corbyn again), and so on.

None of which is the fault of Corbyn.

Yes, he's not been a very good leader all in all, but you cannot pin this election on him. Only a leave Labour leader could have won, and then there would have been no election in the first place!

And, also, I didn't say it was unfairly maligned, I said when someone FEELS it's unfairly maligned.

Cripes, you don't think much of Labour heartland voters do you. I'll tell you I spend years up north, being born to poor working class on one side and lower middle class on the other northern (Lancs and `yorks) families, and I can tell you they were very sensitive to anti-semitism as a legacy of the war. I'd be pretty ashamed if it didn't bother a lot of folks in the country, and in any case I 'only' said it played a part in Labour voters going tory. Probably outside the red wall too.

You can happily ignore all the feedback about the doorstep animosity to Corbyn- but its pretty overwhelming from Labour MPs, ex Labour MPs and even the Guardian. A clear position from him on Brexit might have helped- there was a spat apparently between him and McDonnell.

You also ignored what I said; I didn't pin it on him exclusively, in fact said Brexit was likely the most important factor. I specifically said it was a number of issues- and even the Grauniad agrees, apart from skipping over anti-semitism specifically.

Fair enough on the manifesto- again criticised by the grauniad- but the way you framed it looked like you felt it was unfair criticism and you did defend it-ish; I wouldn't have replied otherwise.

On the manifesto, it's the closest to what I would do.

But I wasn't trying to defend it, I was trying to explain the reaction of people who felt attacked.

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote: Cripes, you don't think much of Labour heartland voters do you. I'll tell you I spend years up north, being born to poor working class on one side and lower middle class on the other northern (Lancs and `yorks) families, and I can tell you they were very sensitive to anti-semitism as a legacy of the war. I'd be pretty ashamed if it didn't bother a lot of folks in the country, and in any case I 'only' said it played a part in Labour voters going tory. Probably outside the red wall too.

You can happily ignore all the feedback about the doorstep animosity to Corbyn- but its pretty overwhelming from Labour MPs, ex Labour MPs and even the Guardian. A clear position from him on Brexit might have helped- there was a spat apparently between him and McDonnell.

You also ignored what I said; I didn't pin it on him exclusively, in fact said Brexit was likely the most important factor. I specifically said it was a number of issues- and even the Grauniad agrees, apart from skipping over anti-semitism specifically.

Fair enough on the manifesto- again criticised by the grauniad- but the way you framed it looked like you felt it was unfair criticism and you did defend it-ish; I wouldn't have replied otherwise.

On the manifesto, it's the closest to what I would do.

But I wasn't trying to defend it, I was trying to explain the reaction of people who felt attacked.

fair dinkum. I like some/ a lot of the ideas in the manifesto. It was just far too much, too quickly, and in some cases unnecessarily, to be really credible- you mentioned British Broadband, which was a- mad, and b- doubled in annual costs between announcement and grey book- and then crdibility further knocked by successive announcements. As I said, a more grounded, less ideological approach would have grabbed more moderate remainers; I will grant that they had painted themselves in a corner on Brexit, and the messaging was not easily delivered on the doorstep. IMO the potential alliance missed two golden opportunities for an utterly different outcome- to some extent, this result was self inflicted. I really really hope Labour find a way of being really effective and come up with ways to package their offers and vision- sh*t ton of good ideas.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
On the manifesto, it's the closest to what I would do.

But I wasn't trying to defend it, I was trying to explain the reaction of people who felt attacked.

fair dinkum. I like some/ a lot of the ideas in the manifesto. It was just far too much, too quickly, and in some cases unnecessarily, to be really credible- you mentioned British Broadband, which was a- mad, and b- doubled in annual costs between announcement and grey book- and then crdibility further knocked by successive announcements. As I said, a more grounded, less ideological approach would have grabbed more moderate remainers; I will grant that they had painted themselves in a corner on Brexit, and the messaging was not easily delivered on the doorstep. IMO the potential alliance missed two golden opportunities for an utterly different outcome- to some extent, this result was self inflicted. I really really hope Labour find a way of being really effective and come up with ways to package their offers and vision- sh*t ton of good ideas.

Did they?

The election was lost in the leave constituencies. Are you saying they would have voted differently?

This election was effectively lost the moment Nick Clegg got into bed with the Tories to give them power.

Banquo wrote:One was missed during parliament when they could have got a second referendum through if Labour had co-operated; they also could have made genuine headway in more Tory remain seats and other marginals by actually being serious on tactical voting. The other thing they colectively shouldn't have done was agree to an election. Boris has played a blinder (been a bit sick in my mouth there), but been helped along the way.

ad_tigger wrote:Whole thing leaves me thinking that the only sensible thing to do now as a vaguely left leaning individual of any colour is to join the labour party so at least you get a vote on the next party leader.

There's a hell of a lot more moderates who want Labour closer to the centre than denialist JC fanboys who think that Rebecca Long-Bailey is the obvious next step.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
People do double down when they feel things are unfairly maligned.

The Labour manifesto is not terrible. It has holes, but it's not as bad as the Tory manifesto.

Let's not pretend any number of people read either document. They didn't.

we'll have to disagree, I don't think it is unfairly maligned. Its a very long wish list, and the 'red wall' smelt a rat (you are likely right to say it wasn't read, but they heard all the headlines, and know there is no such thing as a free lunch), disliked Corbyn hugely, and likely most importantly felt cheated by (the perception that) Labour blocking Brexit, and ant-semitism played a part too (I know that gets dismissed as media smears on here, but the lived experience of the likes of Berger, Ellman, Hodge, and Smeeth really can't be ignored). All of this played a part in getting people who would never normally dream of voting Tory ticking the box (and a lot did, notwithstanding Brexit party polling high in some seats); this isn't just my view, but what the likes of Yvette Cooper, John Mann, Ruth Smeeth and others said. I do know from a lobbyist that the Tory manifesto was deliberately simple/sh*t, making sure that only one message was remembered, and that McDonnell/Corbyn/clique went large on the manifesto against policy advisor advice and without involving people like Ashworth (not in the inner circle).

battle being played out tween moderate Labour and Corbynite factions on TV; moderates blaming Corbyn and manifesto (and how hard it was to message),Corbynites solely blaming Brexit.

Gina Miller was very articulate about tactical voting too- it was talked about a lot, but a lot of potential libdem voters switched in the booth as they didn't want to enable a Corbhyn govt. These would likely be Tory remainers I suppose; similarly Libdem voters not giving Labour a leg up.

I agree its been poxy, dispiriting campaign; perhaps the second most dispiriting part was how poor the opposition other than the SNP have performed, when it should have been an open goal (the first being the tawdry elements of the Tory campaign)

(also- turnout)

You're really telling me that people in the midlands and north, in Brexit voting heartlands, cared 1 iota about anti-semitism?

And I still fail to see how any other Labour leader could have faired any better unless they campaigned on Leave, and then this election wouldn't have happened!

If you asked those people why they voted how they voted, you will get Brexit, Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser (which is a media thing, not a reality), Labour will cost us £2,400 more a year (another lie, and nothing to do with Corbyn again), and so on.

None of which is the fault of Corbyn.

Yes, he's not been a very good leader all in all, but you cannot pin this election on him. Only a leave Labour leader could have won, and then there would have been no election in the first place!

And, also, I didn't say it was unfairly maligned, I said when someone FEELS it's unfairly maligned.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
On the manifesto, it's the closest to what I would do.

But I wasn't trying to defend it, I was trying to explain the reaction of people who felt attacked.

fair dinkum. I like some/ a lot of the ideas in the manifesto. It was just far too much, too quickly, and in some cases unnecessarily, to be really credible- you mentioned British Broadband, which was a- mad, and b- doubled in annual costs between announcement and grey book- and then crdibility further knocked by successive announcements. As I said, a more grounded, less ideological approach would have grabbed more moderate remainers; I will grant that they had painted themselves in a corner on Brexit, and the messaging was not easily delivered on the doorstep. IMO the potential alliance missed two golden opportunities for an utterly different outcome- to some extent, this result was self inflicted. I really really hope Labour find a way of being really effective and come up with ways to package their offers and vision- sh*t ton of good ideas.

Did they?

The election was lost in the leave constituencies. Are you saying they would have voted differently?

This election was effectively lost the moment Nick Clegg got into bed with the Tories to give them power.

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:One was missed during parliament when they could have got a second referendum through if Labour had co-operated; they also could have made genuine headway in more Tory remain seats and other marginals by actually being serious on tactical voting. The other thing they colectively shouldn't have done was agree to an election. Boris has played a blinder (been a bit sick in my mouth there), but been helped along the way.

Yes, they really, really should have been able to compromise during the last parliament and form a GNU, even if only to force a 2nd referendum.

Tactical voting - I saw somewhere that it would have made a difference in 18 seats - so not enough (though had they formed a pact, then it may have been more, as they were often attacking each other, so it wouldn't be a simply vote swap)

I personally agree that they shouldn't have agreed to this election, but... Cockwomble was pretty good at blaming the deadlocked government on the opposition for doing their jobs; and it's easily possible they would have lost even more support had they delayed the election even longer without actually taking power to themselves in a GNU.

I'd add that there was also a fair bit of naivete about how effective Cockwombles lie-and-hide routine was actually going to be (and how ineffective the labour "but the NHS" battlecray ended up being)

Banquo wrote:Opinium nailed it btw

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:Opinium nailed it btw

This one?

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:Opinium nailed it btw

This one?

No, I meant their last generic poll.

Separately this from Wes Streeting

https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/ ... r-results/

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: This one?

No, I meant their last generic poll.

Separately this from Wes Streeting

https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/ ... r-results/

Sorry. Should’ve inserted the tongue-in-cheek emoji.

Sandydragon wrote:I wonder if the Liberals and Labour are regretting voting against Mays deal? If that deal had passed, Brexit would have been lesss of a factor in the subsequent election, May would still have been useless and both Labour and the Liberals could have painted themselves as putting national interest first by cooperating to restrain the ERG.

Sandydragon wrote:Read the polling. Corbyn was and is seen as a joke. Many traditional Tory supporters would have voted for a Blair type labour leader, but could not bring themselves to vote for Corbyn and his bunch of nutters. It’s staring you in the face, corbyn is unelectable.

morepork wrote:Blair electable, Corbyn unelectable.

Something is wrong with the public. At least you now have a nice posh boy at the helm now.

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:Opinium nailed it btw

This one?

Mellsblue wrote:Further proof it wasn’t just Brexit: