RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:56 pm Just looking at the last WC squad and its striking how little improvement there's been in the players who are still around.
Maybe Genge has moved up a level, but beyond that i'm struggling. Some have moved on, retired or been dropped but those who are still in the squad havent done much in the last 3 years.
Its also a bit sobering looking at the long list of new caps since 2019. There are loads of names but bar Steward and possibly Quirke, i'm struggling yet again to identify a player who has come in and looked the part even after a few appearances. (some of course had limited game time)

Quirke has two caps a year ago and has been in and out with injuries since (and before to an extent as well). Not sure I'd be heralding him as a success story until he can stay fit and play some games.

There's always likely to be a lot of new caps when you factor in the Lions Tour where we played games against Canada and the USA. Those were experimental and in some cases used to ensure players were tied to England (Kelly, Umaga and I'm sure there was another one).

I do think part of the issue is that there aren't many guys in the 25-29 age bracket really stepping up from the last world cup. We've got the guys in their thirties holding on and some really good young talent but the guys in their peak years haven't really come in and taken over the squad like you'd hope they would.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:11 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:46 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:40 pm
Watson is only just back from another long term injury and Daly hasn’t, to the best of knowledge, played wing this season. Not that I wouldn’t pick both over Nowell.
That said, no use having world class wingers if everything inside them isn’t up to the required standard.
No one’s saying it is no fault of Jones, but only you’re saying it’s all Jones’s fault.
Completely disagree with your last sentence.

I'd pick both over Nowell, but neither have shown any thing like the form internationally you'd call world class for.....at least ages. But as you said, you could have Campese and Gerald Davies on the wings and it'd make little difference .....even peak Lomu (the sort of player this side needs) wouldn't have helped too much with today's defences.
On the Jones thing- its combo of quality of players, the quality of individual contributions from players who should do better, especially the unforced mental errors, and something awry in the prep (which is down to Jones) that leads to these patches of terrible substandard performance. Sure you could argue on a change or two here or there, but generally he's picking the teams that have a consensus on them. But I think he has run out of road- ironically, because I'm not sure many would do well against the Boks in that mode- ruthless and relentless; no surprises there tbh.

Banquo, I don't really disagree with any of that but I'd add one remark about SA. Before the game several of us suggested that with all the players they were missing they were not invincible (at least). Now, with hindsight they were/are?

Or, were they made to look better than they really are because our performance - from selection, to preparation, to game plan, to mistake frequency, to ill-discipline, etc. - was so bad?

Where it is all so hard to measure is in that conflict of assessment opinion. My own, for what it is worth, is that England do not have the players to be fantastic world beaters BUT they do have the playing quality such that (on the back of a decent 6N showing) they should have won all four AIs. Against top-strength, fully-firing NZ and SA teams, maybe winning those two games was wishful thinking but against those actual teams there was no acceptable excuse for not winning both.

Their big players all stepped up and the fringe guys all did well- much easier on the front foot. Similar to the RWC the physicality just overwhelmed us, and any momentum we managed to gain was chucked away carelessly tbh. But make no mistake, that was a statement performance from them. As said we compounded it, but their pack, and esp front five did a number on any combo we put out.

I agree we aren't world beaters, and we should have beaten Argentina; we played well going forward but didn't score enough points from visits to their 22, and gifted them a try and points through discipline and iffy concentration in defence. NZ again we were ok with the ball, again gifted them a try and did well to come back frankly, and I do think that was a game that we could have won. But we were never in it v SA- sometimes you have to say...well done to them (whilst giving Hill and others an absolute rocket for minimising our chances)- this has happened a lot against SA as well. So I don't agree there was 'no excuse for not beating SA'.....

But I do, and have accepted, that the recurrent mistakes are not being sorted, and that ultimately has to be at Eddie's feet. We are less than the sum of our parts, and have been too many times.

He’s still an impressive athlete but you do see a little bit of that Haskell-esque bodybuilder waddle when he runs sometimes. He’s still very, very good, but I don’t think he’s been quite as good as his reputation would suggest for a little while now.

An observation, Marler's rep is benefiting from not playing. I like him as a player and he is a decent international but doubt he'd trouble any world xvs.

Always good to see a Sussex lad in the national team.

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:31 pm An observation, Marker's rep is benefiting from not playing. I like him as a player and he is a decent international but doubt he'd trouble any world xvs.

Always good to see a Sussex lad in the national team.

I mean he’s a solid carrier, a leader, incredible in the scrum and tackle, but he does take about half an hour to get up after he makes a hit. Not sure if Eddie is still fanatical about “bounce time” or not.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:34 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:31 pm An observation, Marker's rep is benefiting from not playing. I like him as a player and he is a decent international but doubt he'd trouble any world xvs.

Always good to see a Sussex lad in the national team.

I mean he’s a solid carrier, a leader, incredible in the scrum and tackle, but he does take about half an hour to get up after he makes a hit. Not sure if Eddie is still fanatical about “bounce time” or not.

The first requirement for a prop is to not be beasted in the scrum. Marler qualifies ahead of all our other LHs.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:41 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:34 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:31 pm An observation, Marker's rep is benefiting from not playing. I like him as a player and he is a decent international but doubt he'd trouble any world xvs.

Always good to see a Sussex lad in the national team.

I mean he’s a solid carrier, a leader, incredible in the scrum and tackle, but he does take about half an hour to get up after he makes a hit. Not sure if Eddie is still fanatical about “bounce time” or not.

The first requirement for a prop is to not be beasted in the scrum. Marler qualifies ahead of all our other LHs.

Absolutely.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:41 pmThe first requirement for a prop is to not be beasted in the scrum. Marler qualifies ahead of all our other LHs.

Agreed.
Each position has a non-negotiable, and without that, you can have as many "nice to haves" as you want, but if your prop can't scrummage,, your hooker can't throw, your SH can't pass or your winger can't run fast; then they shouldn't be in the national squad

Based on previous England games, I am sceptical about the difference Marler would have made to the beasted scrum on Saturday.

He would have helped. He wouldnt have been manhandled the way Mako was. In hindsight the decision to start Mako was wrong. Genge should have started.

Didn’t need hindsight:

“I accept that I made two selection mistakes for the final,” Jones writes in his autobiography My Life and Rugby. “I should have chosen Joe Marler ahead of Mako Vunipola at loosehead prop as he was always the best scrummaging loosehead we had.”

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:52 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:41 pmThe first requirement for a prop is to not be beasted in the scrum. Marler qualifies ahead of all our other LHs.

Agreed.
Each position has a non-negotiable, and without that, you can have as many "nice to haves" as you want, but if your prop can't scrummage,, your hooker can't throw, your SH can't pass or your winger can't run fast; then they shouldn't be in the national squad

yet LCD, Youngs and Nowell.....


(mild jest)

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:46 am He would have helped. He wouldnt have been manhandled the way Mako was. In hindsight the decision to start Mako was wrong. Genge should have started.

Genge was struggling as well iirc. In fact the second half scrum was worse wasn't it? I did say Mako would have been better coming off the bench, but not sure it would have made any difference- in fact Mako won the first scrum penalty cunningly.

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:51 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:46 am He would have helped. He wouldnt have been manhandled the way Mako was. In hindsight the decision to start Mako was wrong. Genge should have started.

Genge was struggling as well iirc. In fact the second half scrum was worse wasn't it? I did say Mako would have been better coming off the bench, but not sure it would have made any difference- in fact Mako won the first scrum penalty cunningly.

I’m sure there’s a rule about not scrummaging with both your feet above your hips.

Mako almost went the full Rodney Ah You. Some effort by the bloke.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:05 am I’m sure there’s a rule about not scrummaging with both your feet above your hips.

Must have missed that. It was all a horrible blur of being stuffed all over the park, unless you mean the penalty given to Mako when Malherbe twisted in at 45 degrees and went straight to the deck, causing Mako's feet to fly in the air.

I mean I was joking, but yeah that one. I just go with whatever Flatman says to be honest. How anyone ever judges which player has turned/hinged with any certainty I don't know.

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:50 am yet LCD, Youngs and Nowell.....


(mild jest)

Jest?
I consider it proving my point for me

Stuart was in danger of hitting the spider cam at one point, and I consider him a better scrummager than Sinckler. We were handed our arse on a plate basically.

Is Julian White still knocking about?

Beasties wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:37 pm Stuart was in danger of hitting the spider cam at one point, and I consider him a better scrummager than Sinckler. We were handed our arse on a plate basically.

yep, seemed to me all our props were having problems, at least til Malherbe was subbed. Massacre up front.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:25 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:50 am yet LCD, Youngs and Nowell.....


(mild jest)

Jest?
I consider it proving my point for me

fair...

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:24 am I mean I was joking, but yeah that one. I just go with whatever Flatman says to be honest. How anyone ever judges which player has turned/hinged with any certainty I don't know.

I don't dare disagree with Flats but in this case the ref saw what I saw, which was Malherbe going early to his left and down. No chance anyone could hold that up-Mako was 'monstered' but to the ref the picture was as i saw it. Flats liked it for sure!

Surely Vincent Koch’s been in the country long enough now to qualify?