Jones gone (Now 100% confirmed)

[p/d]

I believe in the article there is mention to 2003.

SIR CLIVE WOODWARD: Eddie Jones will be remembered for misguided rhetoric and unfulfilled promises… Steve Borthwick must be allowed his own coaching team - and should definitely bring Kevin Sinfield over from Leicester

[Spiffy]

Presumably Eddie was bought out of his contract. What's the golden handshake ?

[Puja]

Presumably Eddie was bought out of his contract. What's the golden handshake ?

I've heard it said that it's £800k to clear out him and assistants. Big number compared to the £200k Leicester are allegedly asking for Borthwick/Sinfield/Walters.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Steve Borthwick is expected to be confirmed as the new England head coach by the end of the week after the Rugby Football Union opened negotiations with his club Leicester Tigers, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

Sources close to the process insist that there are likely to be ‘no blockages’ to the deal being concluded swiftly. Leicester have already confirmed privately that they do not intend to stand in Borthwick’s way and the RFU are determined to fast-track a plan to install him as Eddie Jones successor after the Australian was sacked from his position today.

It is understood that the original plan had been for Borthwick to take up his position in May and work alongside Jones as part of the RFU’s ‘Project Everest’ succession plan. However the poor results this autumn and the disconnect between the fans and the England team forced the RFU to bring Jones’ seven-year tenure to a premature end.

Leicester cancelled their scheduled press conference on Tuesday afternoon to preview their Champions Cup match against the Ospreys on Sunday at which Borthwick was due to speak.

Leicester are expected to agree to allow Borthwick to begin negotiations with the RFU once a compensation package is agreed and the 43 year-old could begin discussions with the governing body’s chief executive Bill Sweeney on Wednesday.

It is understood that Sweeney has contacted Andrea Pinchen, the Leicester Tigers chief executive, on Tuesday afternoon.

Richard Cockerill, the England forwards coach, was appointed as interim head coach following Jones’ dismissal on Tuesday morning but that was only ever a holding operation until the negotiations with Borthwick could be opened.

It is likely that the RFU will be keen to offer Borthwick a long-term deal through to the next World Cup in Australia in 2027 with a break clause dependent on results.

It is likely that the RFU will have to offer Leicester well in excess of £200,000 to buy Borthwick out of his contract with the Premiership champions, meaning that the cost of sacking Jones will exceed £1 million.

It is also understood that Leicester are unlikely to allow Borthwick to take his current assistant coaches Kevin Sinfield and Aled Waters.

Leicester are also preparing for an approach for player-coach Richard Wigglesworth, the former England scrum-half, to join Borthwick's new coaching team.

The main sticking points are likely to be the make-up of his assistant coaches. Given that there is less than two months to go until the start of the Six Nations, it may be that Borthwick is prepared to work with the incumbents, which is made up of Cockerill, Martin Gleeson and Matt Proudfoot and the incoming defence coach Brett Hodgson.

The appointment of Borthwick will give the RFU the opportunity to reset relations between Conor O’Shea, the governing body’s director of performance and Sweeney, as well an improving relations between the RFU and the Premiership clubs.

It is understood that Borthwick’s over-riding priority will be to establish a strong relationship with the England players, connecting with them in a similar fashion to the job that Gareth Southgate has done with the national football squad

There are also unlikely to be any complications similar to those that Jones imposed on the RFU with regard to outside commercial interests that were a constant source of friction during his seven-year tenure.

[FKAS]

Presumably Eddie was bought out of his contract. What's the golden handshake ?

I've heard it said that it's £800k to clear out him and assistants. Big number compared to the £200k Leicester are allegedly asking for Borthwick/Sinfield/Walters.

Puja

I know what a bargain. Fingers crossed that's just Borthwick and we can keep Aled and Sir Kev.

[p/d]

Project Everest............. got be all three of 'em FKAS. Otherwise it would be Project 'Oooh, that tested the old calf muscles''

[Epaminondas Pules]

Am hearing that he’s being sacked on Monday. All payoffs being sorted and due to part companies.


Usually a very reliable source. Maybe my hope playing in too! We’ll see in 24/36 hours

Never doubted you EP

Monday, Tuesday, last week, this week, tomato, tomato

[FKAS]

Project Everest............. got be all three of 'em FKAS. Otherwise it would be Project 'Oooh, that tested the old calf muscles''

Sir Kev's an inspiring bloke and all round nice guy but he's got less than a season and a half as a union defence coach under his belt with the RFU having not long signed somebody else. Sinfield didn't coach in League before he joined Tigers either. He's the most likely one to be left at Tigers.

Aled would be an important addition but more so for the world cup. Getting him into the training camps to ensure the players are in peak condition would be optimal. He could take a sabbatical from Tigers for the world cup for what would be a smaller fee.

[Epaminondas Pules]

We really are a glass half empty lot aren’t we. He has gone so let’s get behind the future, not worry what an ex Aussie player or a chap who goes by the name ‘squidge’ have to say.

Maybe we can do without a ‘tier 1’ coach and settle on sharing Big Brendan with that cricket rabble . Who knows.
I’m just relieved we get to roll the dice

Squidge did post his video about how England are a good bet for the World Cup and then doubled down after a few minutes against NZ and then how SA managed to nullify the amazing unstructured attack in only a week as the reason Jones was holding things back. Like our entire ability to play rugby and make decisions.

[Beasties]

The cost of living crisis has even hit the Greenwood household. Will’s just been interviewed on BBC News in his own front room wearing a scarf. Is there a Gofundme page?

[16th man]

Finding the number of Rugby twitter commentators who are currently acting as if England winning the World Cup was a formality if we'd kept Eddie genuinely baffling.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Isn’t it just! And on such flimsy evidence.

Of course if we don’t win then it’ll be all ‘I told you so’ because they are geniuses that can see what nobody else sees. Everyone sees lack of game plan, or intelligence and they see Jones holding everything back so it’s a fabulous secret that rides us to World Cup glory! Charlatans!

[Puja]

Project Everest............. got be all three of 'em FKAS. Otherwise it would be Project 'Oooh, that tested the old calf muscles''

Sir Kev's an inspiring bloke and all round nice guy but he's got less than a season and a half as a union defence coach under his belt with the RFU having not long signed somebody else. Sinfield didn't coach in League before he joined Tigers either. He's the most likely one to be left at Tigers.

Aled would be an important addition but more so for the world cup. Getting him into the training camps to ensure the players are in peak condition would be optimal. He could take a sabbatical from Tigers for the world cup for what would be a smaller fee.

I mean, a season and a half as a union defence coach is a season and a half more union experience than our last two England defence coaches have had before taking the role! Let's not undersell the value of inspiration right now as well - just look at how the England cricket team are playing with just a change in mindset. If England are going to reboot for the RWC as well - we're better off having someone that gets everyone bought in really quickly and drives people to do their best, even if they might not have the most experience.

I think there is absolutely zero chance of either of them staying with Tigers if Borthwick goes. For one thing, he'll want his own team for England and there's no doubt that he's bonded quite quickly with Sinfield and Walters. I can't imagine he'll be keen on the idea that he may as well keep this ex-League defence coach cause he's just hanging around Pennyhill Park and it'd be too much effort to bring the one that wants.

For another thing, unless we plan on promoting internally and putting Brett Deacon in charge (we could do worse, although the ever-promoted Geordan Murphy has left me wary of too much promotion from within), a new man at Leicester will want his own team as well. So there'd be no point in the assistants hanging around if they're going to get a P45 sooner rather than later.

Puja

[FKAS]

Isn’t it just! And on such flimsy evidence.

Of course if we don’t win then it’ll be all ‘I told you so’ because they are geniuses that can see what nobody else sees. Everyone sees lack of game plan, or intelligence and they see Jones holding everything back so it’s a fabulous secret that rides us to World Cup glory! Charlatans!

I think there was a game plan. I'm not sure he was going to get it working the way he wanted to with the players he had. I don't think Smith was ever going to be able to consistently mesh his mercurial talents into the multi wave attack Eddie wanted. To much patience required. Not sure we had the forwards to play that type of all court rugby either, as evidenced by the many turnovers in the opposition 22.

I just look at the coaching staff and think we've signed up whomever was available on the free at the time. Not really a best that the Prem could provide being assembled. The RFU need to invest in a proper regime to build going forward. Fair enough give the new defence coach a go but the others should all be on notice.

[FKAS]

Project Everest............. got be all three of 'em FKAS. Otherwise it would be Project 'Oooh, that tested the old calf muscles''

Sir Kev's an inspiring bloke and all round nice guy but he's got less than a season and a half as a union defence coach under his belt with the RFU having not long signed somebody else. Sinfield didn't coach in League before he joined Tigers either. He's the most likely one to be left at Tigers.

Aled would be an important addition but more so for the world cup. Getting him into the training camps to ensure the players are in peak condition would be optimal. He could take a sabbatical from Tigers for the world cup for what would be a smaller fee.

I mean, a season and a half as a union defence coach is a season and a half more union experience than our last two England defence coaches have had before taking the role! Let's not undersell the value of inspiration right now as well - just look at how the England cricket team are playing with just a change in mindset. If England are going to reboot for the RWC as well - we're better off having someone that gets everyone bought in really quickly and drives people to do their best, even if they might not have the most experience.

I think there is absolutely zero chance of either of them staying with Tigers if Borthwick goes. For one thing, he'll want his own team for England and there's no doubt that he's bonded quite quickly with Sinfield and Walters. I can't imagine he'll be keen on the idea that he may as well keep this ex-League defence coach cause he's just hanging around Pennyhill Park and it'd be too much effort to bring the one that wants.

For another thing, unless we plan on promoting internally and putting Brett Deacon in charge (we could do worse, although the ever-promoted Geordan Murphy has left me wary of too much promotion from within), a new man at Leicester will want his own team as well. So there'd be no point in the assistants hanging around if they're going to get a P45 sooner rather than later.

Puja

I'd have thought any coach coming in and being offered a world class S&C coach and a rugby league legend as coaching assistants would be fine with that. There's plenty of scope to bring their own men in, in attack or forwards coaching roles as Deacon, Wigglesworth and Smith are all fairly junior coaches.

Depends who we go for as well, apparently we've been sounded out options in advance of next season so clearly Pinchen either knew or expected Borthwick to be Jones successor in the summer. Leon MacDonald being one and if you've got someone coming in from overseas they will want people around them that know the players and the league (plus maybe one or two of their own).

I'm not a fan of internal promotion at this point in time. I don't think we have an outstanding candidate unless Sinfield takes it on and we hire some experienced coaches to work under him or a DOR mentor above him. As much as I like Brett Deacon he doesn't seem like an inspirational leader type.

Unfortunately for Kev those 18 months are the sum total of his coaching, having found himself in more admin roles than he wanted in League. Unlike Siebold and Hodgson who were both head coaches on the back of longer coaching careers.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Isn’t it just! And on such flimsy evidence.

Of course if we don’t win then it’ll be all ‘I told you so’ because they are geniuses that can see what nobody else sees. Everyone sees lack of game plan, or intelligence and they see Jones holding everything back so it’s a fabulous secret that rides us to World Cup glory! Charlatans!

I think there was a game plan. I'm not sure he was going to get it working the way he wanted to with the players he had. I don't think Smith was ever going to be able to consistently mesh his mercurial talents into the multi wave attack Eddie wanted. To much patience required. Not sure we had the forwards to play that type of all court rugby either, as evidenced by the many turnovers in the opposition 22.

I just look at the coaching staff and think we've signed up whomever was available on the free at the time. Not really a best that the Prem could provide being assembled. The RFU need to invest in a proper regime to build going forward. Fair enough give the new defence coach a go but the others should all be on notice.

Well, there’s the attack side supposedly of unstructured structure, but people like Squidge wholly miss things like defensive structure, set piece (all facets), decision making, discipline, execution in all which were way below where they should be. And that’s before the odd positioning and selections et al.

[Banquo]

Isn’t it just! And on such flimsy evidence.

Of course if we don’t win then it’ll be all ‘I told you so’ because they are geniuses that can see what nobody else sees. Everyone sees lack of game plan, or intelligence and they see Jones holding everything back so it’s a fabulous secret that rides us to World Cup glory! Charlatans!

I think there was a game plan. I'm not sure he was going to get it working the way he wanted to with the players he had. I don't think Smith was ever going to be able to consistently mesh his mercurial talents into the multi wave attack Eddie wanted. To much patience required. Not sure we had the forwards to play that type of all court rugby either, as evidenced by the many turnovers in the opposition 22.

I just look at the coaching staff and think we've signed up whomever was available on the free at the time. Not really a best that the Prem could provide being assembled. The RFU need to invest in a proper regime to build going forward. Fair enough give the new defence coach a go but the others should all be on notice.

like defensive structure, set piece (all facets), decision making, discipline, execution in all which were way below where they should be.

thats all fair and frankly the basics going awol were my nails in Eddies coffin, as thats been the case on repeat for too long, esp decision making, discipline and defence.

[Insouciant]

Isn’t it just! And on such flimsy evidence.

Of course if we don’t win then it’ll be all ‘I told you so’ because they are geniuses that can see what nobody else sees. Everyone sees lack of game plan, or intelligence and they see Jones holding everything back so it’s a fabulous secret that rides us to World Cup glory! Charlatans!

I think there was a game plan. I'm not sure he was going to get it working the way he wanted to with the players he had. I don't think Smith was ever going to be able to consistently mesh his mercurial talents into the multi wave attack Eddie wanted. To much patience required. Not sure we had the forwards to play that type of all court rugby either, as evidenced by the many turnovers in the opposition 22.

I just look at the coaching staff and think we've signed up whomever was available on the free at the time. Not really a best that the Prem could provide being assembled. The RFU need to invest in a proper regime to build going forward. Fair enough give the new defence coach a go but the others should all be on notice.

Well, there’s the attack side supposedly of unstructured structure, but people like Squidge wholly miss things like defensive structure, set piece (all facets), decision making, discipline, execution in all which were way below where they should be. And that’s before the odd positioning and selections et al.

Yes the 'unstructured structure' stuff did start to seem a bit like the King being naked but some true believers swearing he's got clothes on.

[Puja]

Isn’t it just! And on such flimsy evidence.

Of course if we don’t win then it’ll be all ‘I told you so’ because they are geniuses that can see what nobody else sees. Everyone sees lack of game plan, or intelligence and they see Jones holding everything back so it’s a fabulous secret that rides us to World Cup glory! Charlatans!

I think there was a game plan. I'm not sure he was going to get it working the way he wanted to with the players he had. I don't think Smith was ever going to be able to consistently mesh his mercurial talents into the multi wave attack Eddie wanted. To much patience required. Not sure we had the forwards to play that type of all court rugby either, as evidenced by the many turnovers in the opposition 22.

I just look at the coaching staff and think we've signed up whomever was available on the free at the time. Not really a best that the Prem could provide being assembled. The RFU need to invest in a proper regime to build going forward. Fair enough give the new defence coach a go but the others should all be on notice.

Well, there’s the attack side supposedly of unstructured structure, but people like Squidge wholly miss things like defensive structure, set piece (all facets), decision making, discipline, execution in all which were way below where they should be. And that’s before the odd positioning and selections et al.

I also don't buy into Squidge's theory that you can just keep these tactics hidden and pull them out of nowhere when you want them. Practice makes perfect and I cannot believe that you can just bust out a way of playing, that's only ever been tested on the training ground, and expect it not to be a monumental failure.

I do love a lot of Squidge's stuff, but I think he was looking at the bits when the stars aligned and nothing went wrong, and thinking those bits were the masterplan that was being deliberately hidden for the other 78 minutes of a match.

Puja

[p/d]

Not sure you can action any long term game plan with an unsettled ever changing back row. From the outside it looked like our game plan revolved around the opposition rather than ‘this is our team, come and have a go’

[Epaminondas Pules]

And of course training is good to help develop plays etc. but it’s not like testing then against a rampant South Africa, or a France, Ireland, Nee Zealand…you get the point. It’s a completely tosh argument.

[Margin_Walker]

Squidge is the king of taking a result and then reverse engineering a complex strategy/plan that was in place to get to that exact result.

No elite team ever played like trash in the few years leading to a world cup on purpose because they were holding back a master strategy. Besides any England fan I know doesn't want the 6N to be just treated as pre season to a once every four year tournament that you may crash out on with a bad bounce of the ball. Four wins in the last two 6N just isn't good enough for a national setup with the resources he has.

[Oakboy]

Squidge is the king of taking a result and then reverse engineering a complex strategy/plan that was in place to get to that exact result.

No elite team ever played like trash in the few years leading to a world cup on purpose because they were holding back a master strategy. Besides any England fan I know doesn't want the 6N to be just treated as pre season to a once every four year tournament that you may crash out on with a bad bounce of the ball. Four wins in the last two 6N just isn't good enough for a national setup with the resources he has.

I'm happy to have the RWC as the pinnacle but gaining the habit of winning matches in competition circumstances needs 6N success - quite apart from valuing it in its own right.

[Mikey Brown]

He’s sort of taken film criticism’s ability to see intent in every single moment, then you listen to the director’s cut and find out half those moments were improvised to try and fix a mistake elsewhere. I say that as a fan of both, but I do think he sometimes conflates ‘player x does z, causing thing y’ with that having been the plan all along.

Saying that, I am sad we’ll never know if Jones really had something up his sleeve or not.

I hope this has given the people in power a bit more perspective on this obsession with the World Cup though. It’s great to win that many games in a row, obviously, but realistically you can’t set aside the rest of a four year cycle for the sake of a few games which can easily be decided by a 50/50 call or a unlucky bounce.

[Banquo]

Squidge is the king of taking a result and then reverse engineering a complex strategy/plan that was in place to get to that exact result.

No elite team ever played like trash in the few years leading to a world cup on purpose because they were holding back a master strategy. Besides any England fan I know doesn't want the 6N to be just treated as pre season to a once every four year tournament that you may crash out on with a bad bounce of the ball. Four wins in the last two 6N just isn't good enough for a national setup with the resources he has.

I'm happy to have the RWC as the pinnacle but gaining the habit of winning matches in competition circumstances needs 6N success - quite apart from valuing it in its own right.

Best way to develop a team is keep winning.