v All Blacks III: the Decider

[Mellsblue]

Can't see that being anything other than a pen against Owens. Not that anybody would've done anything different than reacting as he did. But thems the laws.
Everyone on top of their game except Iceman. What a match, what a series. Good to see the NZ fans moaning about the referees performance. You know they know they've been in a scrap when that happens.

The laws on the matter whilst trying to be clear are actually not and don't help the ref at all. Under law 11.6 it would be a penalty "offside after a knock on". But then under law 11.5 perhaps not as it states accidental offside is "when an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball....".

My view on that type of situation has been consistent since the last WC. The players can't make themselves invisible or stop their reactions when they are that close to the play and law 11.6 is for deliberate acts. But as a Scottish Lions fan I would be inclined to think that.

For me, the issue was he momentarily caught the ball, not that I blame him. If he'd put his hands in the air or just not attempted catch it I'd accept accidental offside. But when you catch it, natural split second reaction as it was, you've got no defence.

[skidger]

Can't see that being anything other than a pen against Owens. Not that anybody would've done anything different than reacting as he did. But thems the laws.
Everyone on top of their game except Iceman. What a match, what a series. Good to see the NZ fans moaning about the referees performance. You know they know they've been in a scrap when that happens.

I didnt notice any of that last week and am sure there will be zero comment on the ref this week.

[Banquo]

All in all, as I think Numbers noted earlier in the tour, we've done better than most of us thought we would.

[Mellsblue]

Can't see that being anything other than a pen against Owens. Not that anybody would've done anything different than reacting as he did. But thems the laws.
Everyone on top of their game except Iceman. What a match, what a series. Good to see the NZ fans moaning about the referees performance. You know they know they've been in a scrap when that happens.

zero comment .

Accidental or not, this is of the highest quality.

[Mellsblue]

Can't see that being anything other than a pen against Owens. Not that anybody would've done anything different than reacting as he did. But thems the laws.
Everyone on top of their game except Iceman. What a match, what a series. Good to see the NZ fans moaning about the referees performance. You know they know they've been in a scrap when that happens.

I will fight you.

on the bitches.

[Big D]

Can't see that being anything other than a pen against Owens. Not that anybody would've done anything different than reacting as he did. But thems the laws.
Everyone on top of their game except Iceman. What a match, what a series. Good to see the NZ fans moaning about the referees performance. You know they know they've been in a scrap when that happens.

The laws on the matter whilst trying to be clear are actually not and don't help the ref at all. Under law 11.6 it would be a penalty "offside after a knock on". But then under law 11.5 perhaps not as it states accidental offside is "when an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball....".

My view on that type of situation has been consistent since the last WC. The players can't make themselves invisible or stop their reactions when they are that close to the play and law 11.6 is for deliberate acts. But as a Scottish Lions fan I would be inclined to think that.

For me, the issue was he momentarily caught the ball, not that I blame him. If he'd put his hands in the air or just not attempted catch it I'd accept accidental offside. But when you catch it, natural split second reaction as it was, you've got no defence.

To me in that scenario catching the ball is a reflex reaction in an unavoidable situation given how close he was to the play. IIRC he pretty much puts his hands up when he realises what happened which to me suggests his previous actions wasn't deliberately impacting play from an offside position. There was no reasonable way for him to get out the way so for me, and I do accept others disagree, Poite made the right call eventually.

If he had been a couple of metres further away I'd give a penalty.

[Mellsblue]

The laws on the matter whilst trying to be clear are actually not and don't help the ref at all. Under law 11.6 it would be a penalty "offside after a knock on". But then under law 11.5 perhaps not as it states accidental offside is "when an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball....".

My view on that type of situation has been consistent since the last WC. The players can't make themselves invisible or stop their reactions when they are that close to the play and law 11.6 is for deliberate acts. But as a Scottish Lions fan I would be inclined to think that.

For me, the issue was he momentarily caught the ball, not that I blame him. If he'd put his hands in the air or just not attempted catch it I'd accept accidental offside. But when you catch it, natural split second reaction as it was, you've got no defence.

To me in that scenario catching the ball is a reflex reaction in an unavoidable situation given how close he was to the play. IIRC he pretty much puts his hands up when he realises what happened which to me suggests his previous actions wasn't deliberately impacting play from an offside position. There was no reasonable way for him to get out the way so for me, and I do accept others disagree, Poite made the right call eventually.

If he had been a couple of metres further away I'd give a penalty.

Yep, tough call. Glad it wasn't me.

[Big D]

For me, the issue was he momentarily caught the ball, not that I blame him. If he'd put his hands in the air or just not attempted catch it I'd accept accidental offside. But when you catch it, natural split second reaction as it was, you've got no defence.

To me in that scenario catching the ball is a reflex reaction in an unavoidable situation given how close he was to the play. IIRC he pretty much puts his hands up when he realises what happened which to me suggests his previous actions wasn't deliberately impacting play from an offside position. There was no reasonable way for him to get out the way so for me, and I do accept others disagree, Poite made the right call eventually.

If he had been a couple of metres further away I'd give a penalty.

Yep, tough call. Glad it wasn't me.

Aye. I wouldn't want to be an international ref.

[skidger]

On stuff.co.nz the main headline is 'what the.......?' with the two different stories underneath having the following headlines-

Ref stuns in final minute
Test descends into french farce.

Some of the NZ media make Arsene Wegner look gracious. Every time there is a defeat(or draw) it seems they quickly rush to put it on the ref. Such a shame as its the best rugby country in the world.

[Mellsblue]

On stuff.co.nz the main headline is 'what the.......?' with the two different stories underneath having the following headlines-

Ref stuns in final minute
Test descends into french farce.

Some of the NZ media make Arsene Wegner look gracious. Every time there is a defeat(or draw) it seems they quickly rush to put it on the ref. Such a shame as its the best rugby country in the world.

I blame Wayne Barnes.

[skidger]

On stuff.co.nz the main headline is 'what the.......?' with the two different stories underneath having the following headlines-

Ref stuns in final minute
Test descends into french farce.

Some of the NZ media make Arsene Wegner look gracious. Every time there is a defeat(or draw) it seems they quickly rush to put it on the ref. Such a shame as its the best rugby country in the world.

I blame Wayne Barnes.

It all started with Wayne. Shame on him.

[fivepointer]

Owens caught the ball so could legitimately be said to have played it. I appreciate its an instinctive reaction but i dont think the Lions could have complained had Poite stood by his original penalty decision.
That aside, NZ have only themselves to blame for failing to win last week and this. They had their chances and blew them.

[Timbo]

yay, gats called out all Faz's fck ups, there is a god

What'd he say?

[zer0]

Wummery aside, I guess it's a positive that we didn't lose either the series or the Eden Park record. As others have said, the AB's should've been far more clinical so as to remove the very random French refereeing variable. If they had their house in order it could've been all but over at half time.

As for the tour as a whole, the Blues won, the Crusaders lost. The touring Lions fans were good value, as always. An entertaining tour all round. Good stuff. Hope they continue as is, without the English clubs further encroaching upon them.

[Sourdust]

I tend to think that by the strictest interpretation of law, it should have been a pen.

But the law is so vague in these circumstances, and has been so controversial before, that to decide a test series on that moment would have been intolerably cruel. I think even NZ fans would have felt a bit hollow about it if they're fully honest with themselves. IMO Poite applied natural justice in full "empathy with the game". Whether he was entitled to make that call, is another issue.

When something hits you your hands go to the point of impact. It's a reflex, and I hate seeing it penalized. The law needs to be cleared up, so that for a penalty there must be a clear and obvious intent to play the ball from a knowingly offside position, otherwise it's the same offence as bumping into a teammate.

[skidger]

yay, gats called out all Faz's fck ups, there is a god

What'd he say?

Graham 'look at me' Simmons was about to push for him to be knighted when Gatland just replied with a comment about all his mistakes. Although the New Zealand Herald still enjoys acid it seems

12. Owen Farrell - 8
Powerful all-round game, including strength in tackle and levelling penalty. Confidence gave Lions momentum.

[Timbo]

yay, gats called out all Faz's fck ups, there is a god

What'd he say?

Graham 'look at me' Simmons was about to push for him to be knighted when Gatland just replied with a comment about all this mistakes. Although the New Zealand Herald still enjoys acid it seems-

12. Owen Farrell - 8
Powerful all-round game, including strength in tackle and levelling penalty. Confidence gave Lions momentum.

He had a good second half I thought. 3 for the first and a 7 for the second, for a bang average 5 overall.

[Cameo]

I tend to think that by the strictest interpretation of law, it should have been a pen.

But the law is so vague in these circumstances, and has been so controversial before, that to decide a test series on that moment would have been intolerably cruel. I think even NZ fans would have felt a bit hollow about it if they're fully honest with themselves. IMO Poite applied natural justice in full "empathy with the game". Whether he was entitled to make that call, is another issue.

When something hits you your hands go to the point of impact. It's a reflex, and I hate seeing it penalized. The law needs to be cleared up, so that for a penalty there must be a clear and obvious intent to play the ball from a knowingly offside position, otherwise it's the same offence as bumping into a teammate.

I'd be all for that not being a penalty but to change it in the final minute of a lions test is farcical. Those are always given and it is always said that they are unlucky but those are the rules. It's not like all other penalties are for full on skulduggery.

I think he just bottled it. I don't know how the TMO angles could possibly have changed his mind.

[Sandydragon]

A game you couldn't take your eyes off. Despite early AB dominance, the Lions could have won that with an it more composure in the second half.

Some huge performances out there and some average ones on both sides. But if nothing else this series has demonstrated the importance of a good goal kicker.

yet what did we sacrifice today on that altar; Sexton is a good kicker to be fair.

For a five minute period on the first half I though Farrell was going to cost us in a huge way. I'm not sure that the combination worked as well as it was hoped, but then with Teo on the field the ball just didn't get wide.

[skidger]

What'd he say?

Graham 'look at me' Simmons was about to push for him to be knighted when Gatland just replied with a comment about all this mistakes. Although the New Zealand Herald still enjoys acid it seems-

12. Owen Farrell - 8
Powerful all-round game, including strength in tackle and levelling penalty. Confidence gave Lions momentum.

He had a good second half I thought. 3 for the first and a 7 for the second, for a bang average 5 overall.

Yes he did improve although he was coming from a very low starting point.

[Sandydragon]

All in all, as I think Numbers noted earlier in the tour, we've done better than most of us thought we would.

Hell yes. Of course I'm sure someone will make the comment that with other players and a different coach we would have won 3-0 but I would argue that this has been a huge achievement.

[Timbo]

I tend to think that by the strictest interpretation of law, it should have been a pen.

But the law is so vague in these circumstances, and has been so controversial before, that to decide a test series on that moment would have been intolerably cruel. I think even NZ fans would have felt a bit hollow about it if they're fully honest with themselves. IMO Poite applied natural justice in full "empathy with the game". Whether he was entitled to make that call, is another issue.

When something hits you your hands go to the point of impact. It's a reflex, and I hate seeing it penalized. The law needs to be cleared up, so that for a penalty there must be a clear and obvious intent to play the ball from a knowingly offside position, otherwise it's the same offence as bumping into a teammate.

I'd be all for that not being a penalty but to change it in the final minute of a lions test is farcical. Those are always given and it is always said that they are unlucky but those are the rules. It's not like all other penalties are for full on skulduggery.

I think he just bottled it. I don't know how the TMO angles could possibly have changed his mind.

I think NZ could also argue that if Poite rules it as accidental offside on the field then they want the advantage with Leinert-Brown ball in hand and the Lions defence all over the place.

[Spy]

Just back from the game. Epic encounter. Had seats in the zone obviously block-booked for Lions package visitors, but they were a decent bunch of baby boomers valiantly enjoying a night out. Atmosphere was a step up from the first test, which was already several steps up from a typical Eden Park Test. Lions fans have been great. Generally a pretty jovial mood after the game as well

Thought it was a really good game. AB's would have been 15 points up at halftime if we'd taken our chances. Just too many errors. Plenty of spirit from both teams throughout.

Lions perhaps lucky with the last non-penalty, but then it would have been a bit of a slack way to decide such a good test. Probably no worse than the jumping into the tackle penalty of last week, but nonetheless.

Good series. Lions will go home feeling pretty positive about things, all in all, I would think. All Blacks will be less happy, which won't do them any harm in the long run either. I'm looking on the bright side. Hope all visiting fans had a good stay, despite it pissing down for most of the tour.

[Sandydragon]

Owens caught the ball so could legitimately be said to have played it. I appreciate its an instinctive reaction but i dont think the Lions could have complained had Poite stood by his original penalty decision.
That aside, NZ have only themselves to blame for failing to win last week and this. They had their chances and blew them.

You could argue that. Equally it could be argued that Reed had no chance of catching that ball. The ABs got the ball back in a prime position . You can't blame that loss on the ref.

[Mr Mwenda]

So, everyone was right. Gatland didn't have the team to win a series in NZ.