RugbyRebels

By my quick count SA teams have won 9/12 encounters with non-SA teams so far this season (Jaguares accounting for 2 of the losses), NZ teams have won 5/5 encounters with foreign teams, and Australian teams have won just 1/11 encounters with foreign teams (Reds edging the Sharks at home). So which country ought to lose two teams if there is to be a culling of Super franchises for next season ??

rowan wrote:By my quick count SA teams have won 9/12 encounters with non-SA teams so far this season (Jaguares accounting for 2 of the losses), NZ teams have won 5/5 encounters with foreign teams, and Australian teams have won just 1/11 encounters with foreign teams (Reds edging the Sharks at home). So which country ought to lose two teams if there is to be a culling of Super franchises for next season ??

Japan should lose at least 1 team, if not go into negative territory. 0 from 4 with a -100 PD says all you need to know.

Either that or just form a 2nd division with the Aussie teams...

Italy's 6 Nations
Poor old Italy has plumbed new depths of godawfulness this year. Eddie Jones was right that they haven't played rugby. They've just sat back and watched rugby be played around, over and behind them.

For the 7th time in 18 seasons* Italy has lost every single 6N match. For comparison's sake, since the Azzuri joined the competition, there have been only 4 other years where a team has lost every match (Wales in 2003 and Scotland in 2004, '12 & '15). Italy has not won a match since their 3rd match of 2015 when Scotland out-wooded-spooned them. That is their only win in 20 matches (a 5% win rate) since 2013.

Italy's set a new record for worst ever Points Difference with -151, beating the old mark of -145 they set only last year. Italy has now been 100 points or more adrift in 10 different seasons. No other team has ever conceded an average of 20/match in the 6N.** The next worst was Scotland's -93 in 2004.

If Italy drop their first two matches in 2018 (as seems inevitable) they will match their worst losing streak of 14 (2000-2002).

The Italian's should be very grateful that Romania toppled the Lelos over the weekend, reducing the momentum of Georgia's bid for a place at the top table in Europe.

*2001, 2002, 2005, 2009, 2014, 2016, 2017
**Ireland conceded 84 (av. 21/match) in the 5N in 1997 but at least won a match.

England haven't scored a try against Ireland, in Ireland, since 2011.

zer0 wrote:England haven't scored a try against Ireland, in Ireland, since 2011.

Nice stat. Half of all 6N teams failed to dot down last weekend. Only Scotland (can you believe it?) scored a try in every 6N match it played this year. In the South, 2 teams had at least one tryless game in the latest Rugby Championship.

Most recent "no try" matches for selected teams:
England: 18.03.2017 v Ireland
Wales: 18.03.2017 v France
Italy: 18.03.2017 v Scotland
Ireland: 10.03.2017 v Wales
France: 25.02.2017 v Ireland
South Africa: 08.10.2016 v New Zealand
Australia: 27.08.2016 v New Zealand
Canada: 26.06.2016 v Italy
Argentina: 25.06.2016 v France
Scotland: 25.06.2016 v Japan
Fiji: 24.06.2016 v Georgia
Uruguay: 13.06.2016 v Romania
Romania: 19.03.2016 v Georgia
Tonga: 09.10.2015 v New Zealand
USA: 07.10.2015 v South Africa
Samoa: 26.09.2015 v South Africa
Georgia: 25.09.2015 v Argentina
Japan: 15.09.2014 v Romania
New Zealand: 16.08.2014 v Australia
Lions: 29.06.2013 v Australia

British, Irish and Kiwi Lions

The 2017 Lions will have a Kiwi coach and will likely feature some of his compatriots in the squad. NZ-born players in the Home Nations teams in the 2017 6N were “Englishmen” Dylan Hartley, Mako Vunipola, Ben Te’o and Teimana Harrison (uncapped Denny Solomona is also a bolter’s chance); “Scotsmen” Sean Maitland, Simon Berghan and John Hardie; and “Irishman” Jared Payne.* If any are selected, they will join the following NZ-born Lions:

Sean Maitland (2013)
Mako Vunipola (2013)
Riki Flutey (2009)
Pat McEvedy (1904)
Arthur O’Brien (1904)

Dylan Hartley was previously selected in the 2013 squad but brain-farted his way out of it before getting on the plane. And of course this chap (1993, 2001) is an honorary Kiwi having learned his rugby here:



*Wales couldn’t find room for any Kiwis what with all the Englishmen in their team.

Word is that the All Blacks are trying to line-up a warm-up match before the Lions Series. This would be rarity as it's only been done twice in 11 tours. The All Blacks have typically gone into Lions Series cold although this is only the second Lions tour of the professional era. Before then, I expect that All Blacks trials would have provided some sort of a warm-up at a level higher than provincial matches.

This is the complete list of All Blacks home games in Lions Tour years.

2005: Fiji, Lions x3, SA, Aus
1993: Lions x3, Aus, Samoa
1983: Lions x4
1977: Lions x4
1971: Lions x4
1966: Lions x4
1959: Lions x4
1950: Lions x4
1930: North Otago, Lions x4
1908: Lions (Anglo-Welsh) x3
1904: Lions x1

Yes, this was discussed on another thread; my comment being that I'd like to see the All Blacks blow the cobwebs out at the beginning of the international season with an annual test against a Pacific Island neighbor. If Australia did the same that would mean 2/3 island teams would get a big tier 1 test every year, or to put it another way: 2 big tier 1 tests every 3 years guaranteed. SA could perhaps do the same with an annual early season trophy match against the Welwitschias. This only seems fair, given the 6 Nations have just been committed to regular tests with the Eastern Europeans and Argentina is already heavily involved with tier 2 & 3 teams in the Americas. It's just not good enough for the SANZAR nations to sit back and do nothing for the development of the international game...

Another Lions stat - Number of matches in each NZ tour

1904*: 5* (4 provinces**, 1 test)
1908: 17*** (14 provinces, 3 tests)
1930: 21**** (16 provinces, 4 tests, 1 NZ Maori)
1950: 23***** (18 provinces, 4 tests, 1 NZ Maori)
1959: 25***** (18 provinces, 4 tests, 1 NZ Universities, 1 NZ Juniors, 1 NZ Maori)
1966: 25****** (18 provinces, 4 tests, 1 NZ Juniors, 1 NZ Universities, 1 NZ Maori)
1971: 24******* (18 provinces, 4 tests, 1 NZ Universities, 1 NZ Maori)
1977: 25********(18 provinces,********* 4 tests, 1 NZ Juniors, 1 NZ Universities, 1 NZ Maori)
1983: 18 (14 provinces, 4 tests)
1993: 13 (9 provinces, 3 tests, 1 NZ Maori)
2005: 11********** (7 provinces, 3 tests, 1 NZ Maori)
2017: 10 (5 Super Rugby Franchises, 3 tests, 1 Provincial Union XV, 1 NZ Maori)


*NZ was tacked on to an Aussie tour (14 other matches including 3 tests)
** I've not distinguished combined XVs selected from multiple provincial unions from traditonal single union teams. NZ provincial unions have split and merged over the years but commonly banded together for tour matches up to 1977, and sporadically thereafter. E.g. in 1908 a combined Manawatu/Horowhenua XV played the Lions but in 1925 the two formally amalgamated in a single union playing as Manawhenua including against the 1930 Lions. The amalgamted union split back into its two parts in 1933 but put up a combined XV against the 1950 tourists. Tellinbg the two apart is very tricky when an amalgamated union just double-barrels the names together (looking at you, Wairarapa-Bush). Basically I coudn't be arsed cross-referenceing tour dates with the detailed history of NZ provincial rugby unions.
***Aust was tacked on (9 matches 0 tests)
****Aust tacked on (7 matches, 1 test) plus an unofficial match v Ceylon
*****Aust tacked on (6 matches, 2 tests) plus an unofficial match v Ceylon
*****Aust tacked on (6 matches, 2 tests) plus 2 matches in Canada
******Aust tacked on (8 matches, 2 tests) plus 2 matches in Canada
*******Aust tacked on (2 matches, 0 tests)
******** plus 1 match in Fiji
*********Including a team described as "Hanan Shield Districts" which is just shorthand for South Canterbury, Mid Canterbury and North Otago provinces.
**********plus 1 warm-up at home v Argentina

rowan wrote:Yes, this was discussed on another thread; my comment being that I'd like to see the All Blacks blow the cobwebs out at the beginning of the international season with an annual test against a Pacific Island neighbor. If Australia did the same that would mean 2/3 island teams would get a big tier 1 test every year, or to put it another way: 2 big tier 1 tests every 3 years guaranteed. SA could perhaps do the same with an annual early season trophy match against the Welwitschias. This only seems fair, given the 6 Nations have just been committed to regular tests with the Eastern Europeans and Argentina is already heavily involved with tier 2 & 3 teams in the Americas. It's just not good enough for the SANZAR nations to sit back and do nothing for the development of the international game...

I wouldn't want to be as rigid as to enforce a match every year. I do think that a bi-annual home and away with a Pacific team would be fun though.

As for NZ not doing enough to help the international game, may I refer you to lizard's last but 2 post?

canta_brian wrote:

rowan wrote:Yes, this was discussed on another thread; my comment being that I'd like to see the All Blacks blow the cobwebs out at the beginning of the international season with an annual test against a Pacific Island neighbor. If Australia did the same that would mean 2/3 island teams would get a big tier 1 test every year, or to put it another way: 2 big tier 1 tests every 3 years guaranteed. SA could perhaps do the same with an annual early season trophy match against the Welwitschias. This only seems fair, given the 6 Nations have just been committed to regular tests with the Eastern Europeans and Argentina is already heavily involved with tier 2 & 3 teams in the Americas. It's just not good enough for the SANZAR nations to sit back and do nothing for the development of the international game...

I wouldn't want to be as rigid as to enforce a match every year. I do think that a bi-annual home and away with a Pacific team would be fun though.

As for NZ not doing enough to help the international game, may I refer you to lizard's last but 2 post?

Sorry, having trouble locating what you're referring to. Regarding the rigidity you mentioned, what I suggest is merely in line with what World Rugby itself appears to have imposed upon the 6 Nations commencing 2020. Left to their own devices, it's clear that tier 1 nations would be quite content to just carry on playing each other ad infinitum and ignore the remaining 90 or so members of the international rugby community, thereby stagnating its growth - which is required to maintain the credibility of the game's major cash-cow, the World Cup. The fixtures I mention would have obvious benefits for the Kiwis, Aussies & Saffas, however, as the first test of the season is a potential banana skin against top-ranked international opposition. I'm talking about one per team per year, no more, & given a decade or two and friendly rivalries might emerge out of such contests too.

Post 307. This thread.

canta_brian wrote:Post 307. This thread.

Yes, got it. But that's a whole nother issue...

0 defeats or draws for England, their 13-0 record achieving only the second 'perfect season' of the professional era, following New Zealand's 14-0 in 2013. Even so Eddie Jones was right, as well as smart, to defer to England's 16-1 season in 2003 which included a World Cup victory and has some claim to be the best single calendar year ever enjoyed by one team.

2 matches lost by Ireland from a leading position at half-time. They were not alone in this -- it was a fate shared by Australia, Brazil, Chile, Ireland, Moldova, Scotland, South Africa, Spain, Uruguay and Wales. But it did consolidate Ireland's lead in all-time defeats after a half-time lead, with 73 to Scotland's 55, Australia's 52 and England's 50.

3 victories after trailing at half-time, two of them against Australia, by resiliently invincible England. Uruguay also came from behind three times, but Wales stay well ahead in the all-time list with 68 wins to France's 60 -- England now have 44.

3 yellow cards for Russian flanker Victor Gresev, the most by anyone in 2016. The ex-Wasps veteran had an eventful year, since he also scored seven tries in 10 appearances -- and Russia won all three matches in which he was carded.

7 losing appearances by Uruguayan centre Andreas Rocco. Nothing terribly unusual in that -- 18 players including nine Argentinians lost nine matches, and a truck-load of Rocco's compatriots lost more in 2015 when Los Teros compiled all sorts of records for losing. But Rocco appears to qualify as 2016's Jinx of the Year, since they lost all seven matches in which he appeared, but won seven out of eight when he did not.

8 defeats for the Springboks, their most in a single year and a serious contender for the worst 12 months in their history along with 1965, when they lost seven matches out of eight. Twenty tries in 12 matches was their lowest of the professional era, and the points difference of -89 their worst ever.

10 tries for Israel Dagg, the most by any player in 2016. Fellow All Black Beauden Barrett's nine was the most tries scored in a single year by a half-back. An honourable mention here for German flanker Jacobus Otto, who scored nine tries in eight matches including one in their memorable victory over Uruguay.

13 winning appearances by eight different players -- six Englishmen and two All Blacks, among whom front row compadres Dan Cole and Dylan Hartley were the only players to start every match of England's invincible year.

13 appearances off the bench, the most ever in a single year, by Argentinian hooker Julian Montoya, who did not make a single start. Reserve front-rowers are always likely to pile up appearances from the bench and he is one of a number of sufferers from the modern trend towards hooker-skippers, making the incumbent particularly tough to shift. Between them Montoya, England's Jamie George, Ireland's Sean Cronin and Australia's Tatafu Polota-Nau won 37 caps in 2016, only one of them -- by Cronin -- as a starter.

14 drop goals in the 267 international matches played in 2016, exactly as many as Jonny Wilkinson landed by himself in 2003.

15 starts by Australia's Bernard Foley, the most by any player and one short of the all-time single year record of 16, set by Philippe Saint-Andre in 1999. Wallaby skipper Stephen Moore also won 15 caps, but came off the bench against France.

18 years and 333 days was the age of Spanish full-back Alvar Gimeno Soria, who came off the bench against Tonga in Madrid last month to be the youngest player in international rugby in 2016. His debut was rapidly followed by his first start, and his first yellow card, in Spain's victory over Uruguay in Malaga.

38 years and 80 days was the age of Canadian lock Jamie Cudmore, the oldest player in international rugby in 2016, when he played against Samoa in Grenoble last month. Cudmore celebrated by confirming his standing as the game's great modern recidivist, becoming the oldest player ever to be yellow-carded. It was his seventh, moving him to the top of the all-time list alongside Marco Bortolomi (112 caps) and Bryan Habana (127 caps), whose careers have been much longer than his 43 caps.

45 tries since the start of 2010 by Julian Savea, comfortably (even if you argue that the decade did not start until 2011) the leading scorer of the current decade. Habana is a rather distant closest pursuer with 31, while George North heads northern hemisphere scorers with 29.

47 consecutive undefeated test appearances -- an all-time record unless anyone knows better -- by All Black prop Wyatt Crockett, who as well as possessing the most Wild West name in rugby has also emerged as the the anti-Rocco , the modern game's great lucky charm. The All Blacks have lost three times since they went down at Twickenham in 2012 -- to South Africa in 2014, Australia last year and Ireland in 2016. While a squad regular, Crockett missed all three and has been in 30 consecutive winning teams -- 19 as a replacement -- since playing in the draw against Australia in 2014. His current career winning percentage from 58 appearances is 97.41%. Brodie Retallick, also absent in Chicago, has played in 20 wins in a row, 18 as a starter, since last year's defeat by the Wallabies.

80 tries scored by the All Blacks in 2016. Japan were next on 53, followed by England with 46.

85-0. The heaviest defeat of the year, inflicted by Japan on Korea in their Asian Five Nations match at Kanagawa on Apri 30l. Japan, playing the first match since the World Cup, awarded no fewer than 17 new caps among their 23. Among the newcomers wings Kentero Kodama and Hajime Yamashita scored five tries and three tries respectively. Whatever happened to the days when Korea looked a serious challenger to Japanese hegemony in Asia? Argentina scored 87 points against Chile on June 4, but their neighbours at least managed 12 in reply

86 caps to the end of 2016 by Wallaby prop James Slipper, who appears to be staging a long-term stealth assault on the all-time caps record. He's still only 27, and only compatriots Matt Giteau (87) and George Smith (86) have won as many caps by the same age. Just over half of his appearances (44) have been as a replacement, but 42 starts make him more than a career bench-warmer. Given the durability of props it is far from inconceivable that he could still be playing at the 2023 World Cup, and have around 170 caps. Slipper's comparatively low profile extends to not yet having scored a try in any of his 86 matches, a record exceeded by only a long-term rival for that all-time record, All Black Owen Franks who has still to score in 90 matches, all but 10 as a starter.

88 losses, making them the most defeated international rugby players of all time, inflicted to the end of 2016 on Italian stalwarts Martin Castrogiovanni and Sergio Parisse. This record has long appeared the destiny of Parisse, the likelihood of his becoming the first player ever to lose 100 tests a weird testimony to his greatness, durability and grace in almost constant adversity.

91.48% is the winning percentage of the All Blacks since 2010, or 85 wins and two draws from 94 matches. Next up is England, a mere 22.81% behind on 68.67%. The All Blacks could lose every match until the end of the 2019 World Cup and still finish the decade comfortably above 60 per cent.

110 Years, 346 days and 29 matches taken by Ireland to beat the All Blacks. If England were undoubtedly the team of 2016, this was the result of the year.

134 caps won to the end of 2016 by Gethin Jenkins, the most-capped active player. The Welsh prop also holds the all-time records for a British player and for a front-rower after overtaking Jason Leonard in 2015. His 129 Welsh caps are so far ahead of his compatriots -- albeit with Alun-Wyn Jones (105) in serious pursuit -- that he has both won (61) and lost (65) more matches for Wales than anyone else, and has a solid lead in both categories. The arm injury ruling him out of the Six Nations -- and presumably also limiting his Lions chances -- might have ended his chance of overtaking Richie McCaw's all-time mark of 148 caps, but he has surprised us so often already that this should not be taken as read.

197 points scored in international matches in 2016 by Owen Farrell, more than any other player. Only Eddie Jones's decision to take him off during the second half against Australia stopped him becoming the fifth player to score 200 in a calendar year -- the record still standing to Neil Jenkins with his 263 in 1999. Still only 25, he already has 540 points, and at this rate should by the end of the 2019 World Cup be within striking distance of Jonny Wilkinson's 1246. His 42 penalties were also the most in the year, while Beauden Barrett landed the most conversions, 40.

350 defeats suffered to the end of 2016 by Scotland, more than any other nation. Ireland is not last behind on 346. At their current rate of progression, seven defeats in seven years, the All Blacks should suffer their 350th defeat some time in 2259.

768 points scored to the end of 2016 by both Merab Kvirikashvili of Georgia and Florin Vlaicu of Romania, highest-ever scorers from Tier Two nations and active leaders from anywhere after overtaking Morne Steyn (733 points) and Ayumu Goromaru (708 points, did not play for Japan in 2016) during the year. Kvirikashvili got there in 91 games to the Romanian's 96, but Vlaicu scored 125 points to his 99 as Romania won 10 matches out of 11 during 2016.

1252 days and 23 consecutive defeats between victories for Sweden, who finally ended their grim run by beating Luxembourg 19-0 in Luxembourg City on November 5. Luxembourg had only two weeks earlier ended a run of 1079 days without a defeat -- and 10 consecutive victories -- when they lost 31-24 to Latvia in Jelgava.

http://www.espn.com.au/rugby/story/_/id ... -year-wait

Some 2016 stats:

.1 ENG 100.0 12 12-0 +152
.2 NZL 92.8 14 13-1 +341
.3 IRE 50.0 11 5-5*1 +37
.4 WAL 45.8 12 5-6*1 -30
.5 SCO 42.8 7 3-4 +9
.6 AUS 40.0 15 6-9 -78
.7 FRA 33.3 9 3-6 -18
.8 RSA 33.3 12 4-8 -89
.9 ARG 25.0 12 3-9 -117
10 ITA 12.5 8 1-7 -207

T2 XXX W% P W-L*D DIFF

.1 FIJ 78.6 21 16- 4*1 +187
.2 SAM 62.5 20 11- 6*3 +23
.3 JPN 58.3 24 14-10 +54
.4 GEO 54.5 22 11- 9*2 +29
.5 TON 50.0 23 11-11*1 +9
.6 ROM 38.2 17 6-10*1 -107
.7 USA 34.6 26 9-17 -92
.8 CAN 29.6 27 8-19 -103

Diverging into cricket for a moment, but I believe that the Black Caps have now conspired to lose all eight coin tosses during the South Africans tour. Explain that one Bayes, you bastard.

Union budgets:

- England: 407 M£ - 470 M€ (2015-2016 season) / 207.9 M£ - 240 M€ (2014-2015 season) - RFU Website
- France: 119 M€ (2015-2016 season) - FFR Website
- Wales: 73.3 M£ - 84.6 M€ (2016) - WRU Website
- Ireland: 71 M€ (2015-2016 season) - IRFU Website
- Scotland: 47.4 M£ - 54.7 M€ (2015-2016 season) - SRU Website
- Italy: 47.2 M€ (2016) - FIR Website
- Argentina: $20 million tbc
- Brazil: 21 million reais / 6,7 million dollars / 6 million euros
- Georgia: 9 M€ (2016) - GRU Website (not totally sure because I saw figures in lari, dollars and pounds)
- Romania: 17 363 138 lei in 2015. That's 3.814 million euro
- USA $5.5 million tbc
- Spain: 4 M€ (2016) - FER Website
- Portugal: 1.4 M€ (2017) - Interview to its president
- Netherlands: 1.2 M€ - According to FPR president
- Russia: between 500,000 - 1million dollars tbc
-

What do you mean by "budget"? Annual expenditure?

If so, then NZ was NZ$134 million in 2015, which is about €87 million.

Guess so. How much they have to spend. USA's has been updated to double what I listed earlier, at about 10 million dollars.

The Zimbabwe RU budget is about 500 000 Euros

Others? SARFU? ARU?

NB: I see Australia were in the black last year for the first time in a while, btw.

Not a stat but random trivia #3113: Auckland Grammar (NZL) and Grey College (SAF) have produced the most test players for their respective countries, and both were founded by the same man, George Grey, who served as Governor-General for both New Zealand and South Africa (well, the Cape, anyway).

zer0 wrote:Not a stat but random trivia #3113: Auckland Grammar (NZL) and Grey College (SAF) have produced the most test players for their respective countries, and both were founded by the same man, George Grey, who served as Governor-General for both New Zealand and South Africa (well, the Cape, anyway).

Is that Earl Grey, of tea fame?

There’s a bit of talk about Jordie Barrett joining his brothers Beauden and Scott as All Blacks.

There have been three sets of three brothers to become All Blacks, but of them there’s only one set in which all three were capped in test matches. Three brothers have never appeared together for the All Blacks in the same match (test or uncapped).

Whitelock
George obtained his solitary All Blacks jersey, cap and try off the bench against Italy in 2009. The following year, Sam won the first of his 84 caps to date. Luke had a single appearance off the bench v Japan in 2013, in a match not featuring Sam.

Nichols
Harry “Ginger” Nichols had an odd career. His first All Black’s match was in the first Springboks test in 1921 in which he played so well the selectors literally gave him a medal as the best back. However he was replaced for the 2nd test and was never capped again, despite touring NSW with the All Blacks in 1922 and facing them at home in 1923. (Ironically, his four matches v NSW are now regarded by Australia as tests with caps awarded retrospectively). Marcus Nicholls debuted alongside Harry in 1921. His career was far more distinguished including 10 tests and 41 other matches (3 with Harry) including the Invincibles tour in 1924-4, 1928 tour to SA and the 1930 Lions. Oldest brother Harold Nichols (known as Doc) played with Ginger in a single match against NSW in 1923 (again, regarded by the ARU as a test)

Brownlie
The youngest brother, Jack, debuted (and bowed out) in 1921 against one the bullshit NSW teams later capped as Wallabies. Maurice was first picked against the same oppo in 1922 and went on to be an Invincible and 1928 tourist, earning 8 caps and playing 53 other matches. Eldest brother Cyril was first picked in warm-up/trial games in 1924 ahead of the Invincibles tour (on which he became the first player to be sent off in a test). He too played through until the 1928 African tour and picked up 3 caps (all with Maurice) and 28 match jumpers (19 with Maurice) on the way.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Is that Earl Grey, of tea fame?

Different. Tea Grey lived 1764-1845, and Rugby Grey 1812-1898. Auckland Grammar was founded in 1850 and Grey's College in 1855.