RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:39 am He’s sort of taken film criticism’s ability to see intent in every single moment, then you listen to the director’s cut and find out half those moments were improvised to try and fix a mistake elsewhere. I say that as a fan of both, but I do think he sometimes conflates ‘player x does z, causing thing y’ with that having been the plan all along.

Saying that, I am sad we’ll never know if Jones really had something up his sleeve or not.

I hope this has given the people in power a bit more perspective on this obsession with the World Cup though. It’s great to win that many games in a row, obviously, but realistically you can’t set aside the rest of a four year cycle for the sake of a few games which can easily be decided by a 50/50 call or a unlucky bounce.

Jones genius was in keeping our masterplan under wraps to such an extent that almost no one could detect a WC winning side underneath the utter mediocrity that we mostly served up.

Reports this morning suggest there was an element of "losing the dressing room" in the sacking. No great surprise. We looked all at sea in the autumn and the players didnt look remotely comfortable.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:25 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:39 am He’s sort of taken film criticism’s ability to see intent in every single moment, then you listen to the director’s cut and find out half those moments were improvised to try and fix a mistake elsewhere. I say that as a fan of both, but I do think he sometimes conflates ‘player x does z, causing thing y’ with that having been the plan all along.

Saying that, I am sad we’ll never know if Jones really had something up his sleeve or not.

I hope this has given the people in power a bit more perspective on this obsession with the World Cup though. It’s great to win that many games in a row, obviously, but realistically you can’t set aside the rest of a four year cycle for the sake of a few games which can easily be decided by a 50/50 call or a unlucky bounce.

Jones genius was in keeping our masterplan under wraps to such an extent that almost no one could detect a WC winning side underneath the utter mediocrity that we mostly served up.

Reports this morning suggest there was an element of "losing the dressing room" in the sacking. No great surprise. We looked all at sea in the autumn and the players didnt look remotely comfortable.

Yeah I was waiting to hear about this. It has to be the case in my opinion.

Keep seeing articles bemoaning that "Eddie had a 73% winning record with England and how are we throwing away our most successful coach, oh woe, woe, etc," so I decided to look into stats for recent figures.

Since the 2019 RWC, England have won 12 games from 23 against the top 9 nations (Home Nations, France, 3N, Argentina), which is 52%. Slightly less impressive. However, if we remove 2020 from the equation (where everyone else was rebuilding and we opted to just... not do that), you get 6 wins from 16, or 37.5%.

...

Thank you Eddie for 2016-2019 - that was great. We've now been terrible for 2 full calendar years, with little sign of improvement, and it's time to say goodbye.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:50 amHowever, if we remove 2020 from the equation (where everyone else was rebuilding and we opted to just... not do that)

Yes, if you manipulate statistics to give false readings, you can get false readings.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:50 amThank you Eddie for 2016-2019 - that was great. We've now been terrible for 2 full calendar years, with little sign of improvement, and it's time to say goodbye.

"terrible" is a little OTT, but I absolutely agree with the conclusion



Eddie post RWC still isn't as bad as it feels though, much as I wanted him out.
In terms of win ratio, Eddie post RWC is above average for an England coach (58%, or 6th out of 16* [or 4th out of 8 professional era]); and there's no way that wouldn't be increasing again had he been given the last 12 months of his contract.

Going into the RWC23, England are essentially guaranteed a QF spot and heavy favourites for a SF. And that'd regardless of who's coaching.

Taking out hyperbole and dislike, there's absolutely no doubt that Eddie had a plan for the RWC; whether we can tell what it is or not.
Any new coach isn't going to really have time to put a detailed plan in place, and will have to reply on a fairly simple plan, and empowering of players (ala 2007) - relying on the inherent talent and a dead-cat bounce (and a whole year's worth of DCB is a hell of an ask).

IMO Eddie had a better chance of us reaching the final, and a much better chance of winning the final than any new coach. An inexperienced new head coach has much more opportunity to shit the bed than an experienced one.
That's my concern - that I wanted Eddie out doesn't really change that.



* taking out the 2 caretaker HCs we've had, and doing the same for SCW, diving his into the first and second 4 years in charge.
1 82% SCW b
2 77% EJ a
3 74% Rowell
4 71% Cooke
5 61% Lancaster
6 58% SCW a & EJ b
8 55% Johnson
9 55% Ashton
10 41% Robinson
11 36% Green
12 33% White, Elders, Colston & Davis
16 25% Greenwood

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:50 am Keep seeing articles bemoaning that "Eddie had a 73% winning record with England and how are we throwing away our most successful coach, oh woe, woe, etc," so I decided to look into stats for recent figures.

Since the 2019 RWC, England have won 12 games from 23 against the top 9 nations (Home Nations, France, 3N, Argentina), which is 52%. Slightly less impressive. However, if we remove 2020 from the equation (where everyone else was rebuilding and we opted to just... not do that), you get 6 wins from 16, or 37.5%.

...

Thank you Eddie for 2016-2019 - that was great. We've now been terrible for 2 full calendar years, with little sign of improvement, and it's time to say goodbye.

Puja

yes, apart from winning in Oz (where we weren't very good, but did at least unwrap JVP, Freeman and Arundell). And a draw with NZ, when we played poorly for 65 mins.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:58 am Eddie post RWC still isn't as bad as it feels though, much as I wanted him out.
In terms of win ratio, Eddie post RWC is above average for an England coach (58%, or 6th out of 16* [or 4th out of 8 professional era]); and there's no way that wouldn't be increasing again had he been given the last 12 months of his contract.

Going into the RWC23, England are essentially guaranteed a QF spot and heavy favourites for a SF. And that'd regardless of who's coaching.

Taking out hyperbole and dislike, there's absolutely no doubt that Eddie had a plan for the RWC; whether we can tell what it is or not.
Any new coach isn't going to really have time to put a detailed plan in place, and will have to reply on a fairly simple plan, and empowering of players (ala 2007) - relying on the inherent talent and a dead-cat bounce (and a whole year's worth of DCB is a hell of an ask).

IMO Eddie had a better chance of us reaching the final, and a much better chance of winning the final than any new coach. An inexperienced new head coach has much more opportunity to shit the bed than an experienced one.
That's my concern - that I wanted Eddie out doesn't really change that.



* taking out the 2 caretaker HCs we've had, and doing the same for SCW, diving his into the first and second 4 years in charge.
1 82% SCW b
2 77% EJ a
3 74% Rowell
4 71% Cooke
5 61% Lancaster
6 58% SCW a & EJ b
8 55% Johnson
9 55% Ashton
10 41% Robinson
11 36% Green
12 33% White, Elders, Colston & Davis
16 25% Greenwood

Good work. With Eddie, not being able to see the wood for the trees was part of his MO facing outwards. Unfortunately, I think it became part of his problem- so busy thinking about the world cup (and beating a side like SA lets face it) that he forget the importance of the basic details- discipline being the touchstone for me.

Yeah, for me, from the outside - he sacrificed too much in his pursuit of the RWC.
I would have had a higher priority on winning the series in front of me 3 times a year; building that winning mentality; and a higher priority on not being f***ing stupid on the pitch; basic handling skills etc; whilst having a lower priority on trying out the RWC squad in their 2nd/3rd positions - yeah they need to be tried, but they need 1000 international minutes there.

Losing the dressing room (if true) would be the final, and definitive nail in the coffin.

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:59 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:50 am Keep seeing articles bemoaning that "Eddie had a 73% winning record with England and how are we throwing away our most successful coach, oh woe, woe, etc," so I decided to look into stats for recent figures.

Since the 2019 RWC, England have won 12 games from 23 against the top 9 nations (Home Nations, France, 3N, Argentina), which is 52%. Slightly less impressive. However, if we remove 2020 from the equation (where everyone else was rebuilding and we opted to just... not do that), you get 6 wins from 16, or 37.5%.

...

Thank you Eddie for 2016-2019 - that was great. We've now been terrible for 2 full calendar years, with little sign of improvement, and it's time to say goodbye.

Puja

yes, apart from winning in Oz (where we weren't very good, but did at least unwrap JVP, Freeman and Arundell). And a draw with NZ, when we played poorly for 65 mins.

And winning in Aus was with them on their 17th choice fly-half by the end.

The Guardian is speculating that Eddie might go to be a consultant with Australia, with the idea that he'll want to target England in the quarter finals.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:13 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:59 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:50 am Keep seeing articles bemoaning that "Eddie had a 73% winning record with England and how are we throwing away our most successful coach, oh woe, woe, etc," so I decided to look into stats for recent figures.

Since the 2019 RWC, England have won 12 games from 23 against the top 9 nations (Home Nations, France, 3N, Argentina), which is 52%. Slightly less impressive. However, if we remove 2020 from the equation (where everyone else was rebuilding and we opted to just... not do that), you get 6 wins from 16, or 37.5%.

...

Thank you Eddie for 2016-2019 - that was great. We've now been terrible for 2 full calendar years, with little sign of improvement, and it's time to say goodbye.

Puja

yes, apart from winning in Oz (where we weren't very good, but did at least unwrap JVP, Freeman and Arundell). And a draw with NZ, when we played poorly for 65 mins.

And winning in Aus was with them on their 17th choice fly-half by the end.

The Guardian is speculating that Eddie might go to be a consultant with Australia, with the idea that he'll want to target England in the quarter finals.

Puja

Yeah but Wales . Oz weren't much cop, but always tricky to beat away. Anyhoo...enough 'misty eyed looking at the past'. Eddie at least gave us plenty to talk about. I'd actually like the next coach to encourage us to give it a rip as they so- cos even if we weren't so effin stupid and poorly disciplined, I'm not sure a relatively conservative plan will win us that much more against the top 4 sides (which doesn't include oz). However, not sure I see that in St Steve's make up.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:11 am Yeah, for me, from the outside - he sacrificed too much in his pursuit of the RWC.
I would have had a higher priority on winning the series in front of me 3 times a year; building that winning mentality; and a higher priority on not being f***ing stupid on the pitch; basic handling skills etc; whilst having a lower priority on trying out the RWC squad in their 2nd/3rd positions - yeah they need to be tried, but they need 1000 international minutes there.

Losing the dressing room (if true) would be the final, and definitive nail in the coffin.

aye frankly been droning on about that for a while now. Losing the dressing room can often be just players being grumpy for being told off for being a bit pants after losing- funny that no doubt it will come out soon.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:13 am
The Guardian is speculating that Eddie might go to be a consultant with Australia, with the idea that he'll want to target England in the quarter finals.

Puja

Farrell at 12 seems so bloody obvious now!

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:09 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:13 am
The Guardian is speculating that Eddie might go to be a consultant with Australia, with the idea that he'll want to target England in the quarter finals.

Puja

Farrell at 12 seems so bloody obvious now!

an 11 year plan concocted with Monsieur Burt de Paris.

Lots of fair points about Jones. Thanks for the good results but let's hope the rubbish we've seen since 2019 is banished.

I am very concerned now that Borthwick is being positioned to do a Lancaster. Frankly, I'd prefer the original Lancaster was given another shot now he is older and wiser. Still, i am even more disappointed that nobody more prestigious seems to be available.

Any bets on when the cut on Borthwick's nose opens up again in a press conference?

Burt at tigers would be good

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:08 pm Burt at tigers would be good

I'd take the shit out of that, although I think even with new riches we're unlikely to be able to buy him out from Racing.

Can't believe that my joke about Wigglesworth might be coming true. He's a decent bloke, but I'm astounded that he's being seriously considered for an England job.

Puja

What would Wiggy do? He isnt going to run the attack surely. He might be a handy guy to have around but i'm struggling to see what he would specifically bring.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm What would Wiggy do?

Replace Youngs on 60mins to up the pace?

Baxter gets new contract: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63887024
O'Gara gets new contract: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63882005

A few agents using this time of speculation and open positions to beef up some salaries in return for loyalty.

Puja

Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:33 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence

Wow. That is an utterly worthless use of a journalist's time.

Puja

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:08 pmStill, i am even more disappointed that nobody more prestigious seems to be available

Available in what sense? That's still the issue with the timing of this. Too early for Borthwick, too early/late for Jones/RWC, guys like Robertson, Edwards, Farrell, O'Gara all tied up with existing contract, as you would expect any top coach to be. Obviously it's worked with Borthwick here, but is the assumption we can always just buy people out?

Several years in to Gregor Townsend's regime for Scotland I still wish we'd stuck with Cotter for a few more years and let him get more experience, or coached a big team in Europe, and not just brought him in off the back of a single league title.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:36 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:33 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence

Wow. That is an utterly worthless use of a journalist's time.

Puja

Ha. Yes. I like the team but as a 'prediction' it's pretty much meaningless.

I do feel like a Hill/Dombrant combo alongside Curry would compliment eachother well though.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:10 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:08 pm Burt at tigers would be good

I'd take the shit out of that, although I think even with new riches we're unlikely to be able to buy him out from Racing.

Can't believe that my joke about Wigglesworth might be coming true. He's a decent bloke, but I'm astounded that he's being seriously considered for an England job.

Puja

Lancaster can stay in France. I don't think Tigers need meetings about future meetings.

I'd like another young innovative coach who wants to make a splash. Kevin Sorrell from Sarries maybe. We've been linked with Leon MacDonald which would be a coup but I can't see it and reckon he might be on Robertson's staff post world cup.

Agree on Wigglesworth.