RugbyRebels

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:04 am Which players enhanced their reputation? Earl, Smith, Lawrence.

Went backwards: Chessum, Mitchell, Daly, Ford.

Stayed about the same: the rest, though, arguably, some (e.g Tuilagi) could not get worse.

Where do we go from here? I accept, now, that picking a settled side to get continuity matters little. What the hell they did in training since the Argentina game, I can't imagine. Puja commented early in the game that the players looked like they'd just met each other in the car park and that looked about right. Tactics seemed to be 'kick'. (The full stop should be bolded, italicised and underlined.)

Changes? IMO, Smith and Lawrence must start. I'd pick them at 10/12 with Ford on the bench. I'd have Willis at 7. SB will do none of that, I'd guess.

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:15 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:34 pm

Danno wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:51 pm Steward seems to be getting worse the more he plays. We need another FB to get a couple of games so that we're clamouring for his return.

Agreed - today was an absolute 2/10 performance for him. He spilled high balls, dropped an easy pass, and not even getting close to Matsushima was an utter embarrassment.

Puja

Dropped more than one easy pass, the dropped passes were particularly annoying because he'd run good lines that would have put us on the front foot, possibly scored early doors. It was a pretty dismal display only rescued by some nice interplay out wide when he actually caught the ball and then taking the crossfield kick with a neat finish just before he was subbed.

Needs a kick up the arse, looks like he's cruising a bit.

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:59 am
And I also worry that it'll therefore be Ford-Faz-Manu, leaving out Marchant, who has been our most effective defender in the backs. There was a play when he made THREE tackles in a row. Insane. Not just for his athleticism, but for the uselessness of the rest of the team that he needed to make those tackles.

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:12 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:04 am Which players enhanced their reputation? Earl, Smith, Lawrence.

Went backwards: Chessum, Mitchell, Daly, Ford.

Stayed about the same: the rest, though, arguably, some (e.g Tuilagi) could not get worse.

Where do we go from here? I accept, now, that picking a settled side to get continuity matters little. What the hell they did in training since the Argentina game, I can't imagine. Puja commented early in the game that the players looked like they'd just met each other in the car park and that looked about right. Tactics seemed to be 'kick'. (The full stop should be bolded, italicised and underlined.)

Changes? IMO, Smith and Lawrence must start. I'd pick them at 10/12 with Ford on the bench. I'd have Willis at 7. SB will do none of that, I'd guess.

No I don't think he'll make those changes. I don't agree that Smith or Lawrence advanced their standings. We knew Smith looks good as an impact sub from 15 and he did again, one of the key reasons being he likes to carry the ball and he often ends up at the bottom of a ruck afterwards and when playing at 15 he can do that with Ford still controlling the attack. Lawrence looks good against a disrupted defence, less so when he's carrying hard into a set defence ala Manu.

Earl played very well again, agreed there. Agree Daly and Mitchell showed up poorly. Ford played fairly well just overly pragmatic and when compared to last weekend was always going to look less impressive because of it.

Not sure what Chessum did wrong. Was a solid 6/10 for me. Did the bits he was supposed to do and reacted quickly to steal the ball for the try we scored.

I'd keep changes in the side to a minimum for the next game. Try and change the mindset more than anything. Ring the changes for key players early in the second half but for a side that's been anything other than consistent chopping and changing won't help much.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:17 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:04 am Which players enhanced their reputation? Earl, Smith, Lawrence.

Went backwards: Chessum, Mitchell, Daly, Ford.

Stayed about the same: the rest, though, arguably, some (e.g Tuilagi) could not get worse.

Where do we go from here? I accept, now, that picking a settled side to get continuity matters little. What the hell they did in training since the Argentina game, I can't imagine. Puja commented early in the game that the players looked like they'd just met each other in the car park and that looked about right. Tactics seemed to be 'kick'. (The full stop should be bolded, italicised and underlined.)

Changes? IMO, Smith and Lawrence must start. I'd pick them at 10/12 with Ford on the bench. I'd have Willis at 7. SB will do none of that, I'd guess.

what's your beef with Tuilagi? He's played pretty well in both games. He only touched it 4 times yesterday, such was our kicking obsession. Sure he's below his physical peak, but he's a pretty effective batterer and tackler at 12.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:30 am

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:59 am
And I also worry that it'll therefore be Ford-Faz-Manu, leaving out Marchant, who has been our most effective defender in the backs. There was a play when he made THREE tackles in a row. Insane. Not just for his athleticism, but for the uselessness of the rest of the team that he needed to make those tackles.

Can it ever be fulfilling defending alongside Tuilagi? Marchant used his rugby brain to cover Tuilagi's lack of one, I'd suggest.

I really don't understand Ford (never have). His rugby talent is there for all to see - no argument. BUT, with all that he CAN do, why does he accept being such an integral part of tactics that waste his skills so utterly? Reportedly, Farrell is a coach's pet, never disputing what he is told to do. That surprises nobody. Ford seems to be following in the same obedience rut which will end up being self-defeating, I'd guess. Either Farrell will take his 10 shirt or be elbowed in at 12 to spoil his (Ford's) potential to play rugby from 10 anyway.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:37 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:17 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:04 am Which players enhanced their reputation? Earl, Smith, Lawrence.

Went backwards: Chessum, Mitchell, Daly, Ford.

Stayed about the same: the rest, though, arguably, some (e.g Tuilagi) could not get worse.

Where do we go from here? I accept, now, that picking a settled side to get continuity matters little. What the hell they did in training since the Argentina game, I can't imagine. Puja commented early in the game that the players looked like they'd just met each other in the car park and that looked about right. Tactics seemed to be 'kick'. (The full stop should be bolded, italicised and underlined.)

Changes? IMO, Smith and Lawrence must start. I'd pick them at 10/12 with Ford on the bench. I'd have Willis at 7. SB will do none of that, I'd guess.

what's your beef with Tuilagi? He's played pretty well in both games. He only touched it 4 times yesterday, such was our kicking obsession. Sure he's below his physical peak, but he's a pretty effective batterer and tackler at 12.

Tuilagi fulfils only one useful function, IMO - possibly keeping Farrell out of the 12 shirt. Quite honestly I'm not sure which of them is worse.

I would never argue with your opinion on defence. Were you happy with Tuilagi stepping up as he did several times? I thought once or twice he was a whisker away from giving Japan an inviting dog-leg opening, only rescued by Marchant or Japan's incompetence.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:44 am England has to find a way of getting Smith more game time and using his attacking instincts. With Ford playing well, and Faz lurking, he's not going to get a meaningful run at 10. He has looked OK at 15, but always coming on too late to change the course of things significantly. Some posters question his defensive capabilities at FB, but he usually makes the tackle and is actually quite a tough little nut. But he does not have to sub on at 15. Why not give him a wing slot and a roving, playmaking role - the way that Ireland uses Hansen. He actually has the gas to play wing and could hardly be worse than May/Daly in their current form. England could even start him against minor opposition to see how it goes - it wouldn't be much of a risk against Chile/Samoa.

p/d wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:42 am I'm starting to miss Malins

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:39 am I'm a bit puzzled by Ford yesterday- he is a good kicker, with a great range of kicks; but his USP as a player is playing flat to the tackle line and putting runners over it. Then again, no-one was really running off him, so its a tad confusing; when a line was run, gainline was generally achieved. So do it more, rather than 3 set up plays for a kick.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:39 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:30 am

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:59 am
And I also worry that it'll therefore be Ford-Faz-Manu, leaving out Marchant, who has been our most effective defender in the backs. There was a play when he made THREE tackles in a row. Insane. Not just for his athleticism, but for the uselessness of the rest of the team that he needed to make those tackles.

Can it ever be fulfilling defending alongside Tuilagi? Marchant used his rugby brain to cover Tuilagi's lack of one, I'd suggest.

I really don't understand Ford (never have). His rugby talent is there for all to see - no argument. BUT, with all that he CAN do, why does he accept being such an integral part of tactics that waste his skills so utterly? Reportedly, Farrell is a coach's pet, never disputing what he is told to do. That surprises nobody. Ford seems to be following in the same obedience rut which will end up being self-defeating, I'd guess. Either Farrell will take his 10 shirt or be elbowed in at 12 to spoil his (Ford's) potential to play rugby from 10 anyway.

Seriously Dors, let it go. Manu was fine in defence, but our system again looked creaky; you'd expect a 13 to be making a lot of tackles with our system and a side like Japan who will try and get outside it.

I'm a bit puzzled by Ford yesterday- he is a good kicker, with a great range of kicks; but his USP as a player is playing flat to the tackle line and putting runners over it. Then again, no-one was really running off him, so its a tad confusing; when a line was run, gainline was generally achieved. So do it more, rather than 3 set up plays for a kick.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:42 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:37 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:17 am
what's your beef with Tuilagi? He's played pretty well in both games. He only touched it 4 times yesterday, such was our kicking obsession. Sure he's below his physical peak, but he's a pretty effective batterer and tackler at 12.

Tuilagi fulfils only one useful function, IMO - possibly keeping Farrell out of the 12 shirt. Quite honestly I'm not sure which of them is worse.

I would never argue with your opinion on defence. Were you happy with Tuilagi stepping up as he did several times? I thought once or twice he was a whisker away from giving Japan an inviting dog-leg opening, only rescued by Marchant or Japan's incompetence.

You just have such a bee in your bonnet about him, there's no point in debating it. But here goes- he gets us over the gainline when used, every time. That enables quick ball and another play. The fact that we then kick is another point.

The defensive system calls for him to pressure in that way, and will always put pressure on 13/Marchant. Its a plan, not him flying up randomly; same as when Faz is at 12.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:37 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:17 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:04 am Which players enhanced their reputation? Earl, Smith, Lawrence.

Went backwards: Chessum, Mitchell, Daly, Ford.

Stayed about the same: the rest, though, arguably, some (e.g Tuilagi) could not get worse.

Where do we go from here? I accept, now, that picking a settled side to get continuity matters little. What the hell they did in training since the Argentina game, I can't imagine. Puja commented early in the game that the players looked like they'd just met each other in the car park and that looked about right. Tactics seemed to be 'kick'. (The full stop should be bolded, italicised and underlined.)

Changes? IMO, Smith and Lawrence must start. I'd pick them at 10/12 with Ford on the bench. I'd have Willis at 7. SB will do none of that, I'd guess.

what's your beef with Tuilagi? He's played pretty well in both games. He only touched it 4 times yesterday, such was our kicking obsession. Sure he's below his physical peak, but he's a pretty effective batterer and tackler at 12.

Tuilagi fulfils only one useful function, IMO - possibly keeping Farrell out of the 12 shirt. Quite honestly I'm not sure which of them is worse.

I would never argue with your opinion on defence. Were you happy with Tuilagi stepping up as he did several times? I thought once or twice he was a whisker away from giving Japan an inviting dog-leg opening, only rescued by Marchant or Japan's incompetence.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:49 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:39 am I'm a bit puzzled by Ford yesterday- he is a good kicker, with a great range of kicks; but his USP as a player is playing flat to the tackle line and putting runners over it. Then again, no-one was really running off him, so its a tad confusing; when a line was run, gainline was generally achieved. So do it more, rather than 3 set up plays for a kick.

This sums it up for me. We had so many opportunities of set, solid, attacking ball, where we passed to Ford and he had the square root of fuck all options available to him. At the absolute bare minimum, at all times, we need to give him one player running on each shoulder and an option out the back, but yesterday he was lucky if he had Daly standing still 15m behind and outside him.

Puja

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:39 am Christ, this is depressing. The collective opinion on here seems to be predicting (by implication) an inevitable return for Farrell on the grounds that he is the expert at negativity. Or, is it a plot by the coaching crew to demonstrate that we are actually MORE creative with him on the park?

When do Ireland play SA? There must be a match worth watching some time.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:44 am We look like a team that is simply scared to play. We dont want to screw up so its safety first all the way down the line. There's enough talent at SB's disposal to play a far more exciting and i would say effective attacking game, but he simply doesnt want to do it. The intent just isnt there.

Danno wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:43 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:39 am Christ, this is depressing. The collective opinion on here seems to be predicting (by implication) an inevitable return for Farrell on the grounds that he is the expert at negativity. Or, is it a plot by the coaching crew to demonstrate that we are actually MORE creative with him on the park?

When do Ireland play SA? There must be a match worth watching some time.

Farrell's immediate return as a starter is inevitable.

Did you miss Fiji v Aus? Mistakes a plenty, but your heart is made of stone and possibly decorating someone's final resting place if it didn't get you yelling by the end

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:05 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:44 am We look like a team that is simply scared to play. We dont want to screw up so its safety first all the way down the line. There's enough talent at SB's disposal to play a far more exciting and i would say effective attacking game, but he simply doesnt want to do it. The intent just isnt there.

Agreed but why? Is he convinced that his game plan is our best chance? Does he not think he and his coaching crew are up to to it?

What happens when we finally get to decent opposition?

Questions but no answers.

p/d wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:26 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:05 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:44 am We look like a team that is simply scared to play. We dont want to screw up so its safety first all the way down the line. There's enough talent at SB's disposal to play a far more exciting and i would say effective attacking game, but he simply doesnt want to do it. The intent just isnt there.

Agreed but why? Is he convinced that his game plan is our best chance? Does he not think he and his coaching crew are up to to it?

What happens when we finally get to decent opposition?

Questions but no answers.

It's all about damage limitation. We can't be Fiji and we are currently a mile away from being the wet dream of SA.

Take the emotion out of it - which is nigh on impossible when having to sit through the turgid, what seems now to be, 120 mins - but SB will be over the moon with the 2 wins, not give a jot whether they entertained and tickled pink his defence coach makes a great water carrier.