RugbyRebels

Just seen the Quins Saints highlights - for Ward's try, Mallinder Jnr's tackle is so piss weak it's laughable

He needs to sort out his D or he'll totally waste his considerable talent. I also don't think he's a natural 15

TheNomad wrote:Just seen the Quins Saints highlights - for Ward's try, Mallinder Jnr's tackle is so piss weak it's laughable

He needs to sort out his D or he'll totally waste his considerable talent. I also don't think he's a natural 15

agreed. I actually think he needs a break- I've heard he has an iffy shoulder for a start.

The defending for the Ward try was damn amusing, given it actually coughed up a try into the bargain it was probably worse than Johnny May farting around at fullback having an attack of the Twelvetrees. Not sure Mallinder is quite into French fullback territory, but he's close, very close

Chris Ashton's defensive bomb behind his own line will take some beating for any aspiring spastic 15.

Speaking of fullbacks, I just had a random thought ...

So Ollie Woodburn is one of the best under a high ball in the AP, has good positional sense, tackles well, can turn the ball over and runs good lines in attack.

Admittedly I’m not sure about his kicking game, but it looks to me as though he has a good skill set for a fullback and if I were him, I’d be looking at the England squad and think I l’d have a better chance of getting in at 15 rather than on the wing.

Exeter have Short, Nowell and Turner to cover the wing spots, so if he pushed for it to happen, I’d see it as a worthwhile experiment.

Scrumhead wrote:Speaking of fullbacks, I just had a random thought ...

So Ollie Woodburn is one of the best under a high ball in the AP, has good positional sense, tackles well, can turn the ball over and runs good lines in attack.

Admittedly I’m not sure about his kicking game, but it looks to me as though he has a good skill set for a fullback and if I were him, I’d be looking at the England squad and think I l’d have a better chance of getting in at 15 rather than on the wing.

Exeter have Short, Nowell and Turner to cover the wing spots, so if he pushed for it to happen, I’d see it as a worthwhile experiment.

Shouldn't think the Chiefs will with a load of big games to come. He's never struck me as a likely 15, nor a good decision maker. If he wants to spend a season or two in the a league at 15, that's up to him I suppose,, but I'd be amazed if Chiefs would support it. An experiment at 15 can, and does, cost games, especially at the top level.

Scrumhead wrote:Speaking of fullbacks, I just had a random thought ...

So Ollie Woodburn is one of the best under a high ball in the AP, has good positional sense, tackles well, can turn the ball over and runs good lines in attack.

Admittedly I’m not sure about his kicking game, but it looks to me as though he has a good skill set for a fullback and if I were him, I’d be looking at the England squad and think I l’d have a better chance of getting in at 15 rather than on the wing.

Exeter have Short, Nowell and Turner to cover the wing spots, so if he pushed for it to happen, I’d see it as a worthwhile experiment.

Bath have recently been trying this same move with Anthony Watson and look how well that’s turned out.

Exactly.

Next.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Speaking of fullbacks, I just had a random thought ...

So Ollie Woodburn is one of the best under a high ball in the AP, has good positional sense, tackles well, can turn the ball over and runs good lines in attack.

Admittedly I’m not sure about his kicking game, but it looks to me as though he has a good skill set for a fullback and if I were him, I’d be looking at the England squad and think I l’d have a better chance of getting in at 15 rather than on the wing.

Exeter have Short, Nowell and Turner to cover the wing spots, so if he pushed for it to happen, I’d see it as a worthwhile experiment.

Bath have recently been trying this same move with Anthony Watson and look how well that’s turned out.

Exactly.

Next.

I know its an attempt at amusement, but Watson had played a lot at 15 before he even went to Bath iirc

Banquo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Speaking of fullbacks, I just had a random thought ...

So Ollie Woodburn is one of the best under a high ball in the AP, has good positional sense, tackles well, can turn the ball over and runs good lines in attack.

Admittedly I’m not sure about his kicking game, but it looks to me as though he has a good skill set for a fullback and if I were him, I’d be looking at the England squad and think I l’d have a better chance of getting in at 15 rather than on the wing.

Exeter have Short, Nowell and Turner to cover the wing spots, so if he pushed for it to happen, I’d see it as a worthwhile experiment.

Shouldn't think the Chiefs will with a load of big games to come. He's never struck me as a likely 15, nor a good decision maker. If he wants to spend a season or two in the a league at 15, that's up to him I suppose,, but I'd be amazed if Chiefs would support it. An experiment at 15 can, and does, cost games, especially at the top level.

You’re probably right in that it’s probably not in Chiefs’ best interests to experiment, but I don’t think he’s a bad decision-maker these days.

Possibly a left field idea, but I’m still not convinced by Watson at 15 or any of the current alternatives so I thought I’d throw it out there.

Even taking the fullback idea out of the equation, I’d much rather he’d been called in to the training squad than Cokanasiga.

Ben Curry included in the U20 squad

Surely he's a level above that now?!

Scrumhead wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Speaking of fullbacks, I just had a random thought ...

So Ollie Woodburn is one of the best under a high ball in the AP, has good positional sense, tackles well, can turn the ball over and runs good lines in attack.

Admittedly I’m not sure about his kicking game, but it looks to me as though he has a good skill set for a fullback and if I were him, I’d be looking at the England squad and think I l’d have a better chance of getting in at 15 rather than on the wing.

Exeter have Short, Nowell and Turner to cover the wing spots, so if he pushed for it to happen, I’d see it as a worthwhile experiment.

Shouldn't think the Chiefs will with a load of big games to come. He's never struck me as a likely 15, nor a good decision maker. If he wants to spend a season or two in the a league at 15, that's up to him I suppose,, but I'd be amazed if Chiefs would support it. An experiment at 15 can, and does, cost games, especially at the top level.

You’re probably right in that it’s probably not in Chiefs’ best interests to experiment, but I don’t think he’s a bad decision-maker these days.

Possibly a left field idea, but I’m still not convinced by Watson at 15 or any of the current alternatives so I thought I’d throw it out there.

Even taking the fullback idea out of the equation, I’d much rather he’d been called in to the training squad than Cokanasiga.

I have to say I don't see an international player in Woodburn. He's in a good run of form and playing in a good team that affords him lots of opportunities. He's like Sharples or Bassett - solid enough and, in peaks of form, might make the grade, but not someone with the talent to be a long-term international.

Cokanasiga, on the other hand, has just a ridiculous amount of potential. If we had a must-win game tomorrow and were missing 10 wings, then I'd pick Woodburn, but in terms of who's got a future with England, it's Cokanasiga all the way.

Puja

TheNomad wrote:Ben Curry included in the U20 squad

Surely he's a level above that now?!

He is going to wreck that level.

Have you the full squad there? Worth a thread of its own?

Puja

Puja wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Banquo wrote: Shouldn't think the Chiefs will with a load of big games to come. He's never struck me as a likely 15, nor a good decision maker. If he wants to spend a season or two in the a league at 15, that's up to him I suppose,, but I'd be amazed if Chiefs would support it. An experiment at 15 can, and does, cost games, especially at the top level.

You’re probably right in that it’s probably not in Chiefs’ best interests to experiment, but I don’t think he’s a bad decision-maker these days.

Possibly a left field idea, but I’m still not convinced by Watson at 15 or any of the current alternatives so I thought I’d throw it out there.

Even taking the fullback idea out of the equation, I’d much rather he’d been called in to the training squad than Cokanasiga.

I have to say I don't see an international player in Woodburn. He's in a good run of form and playing in a good team that affords him lots of opportunities. He's like Sharples or Bassett - solid enough and, in peaks of form, might make the grade, but not someone with the talent to be a long-term international.

Cokanasiga, on the other hand, has just a ridiculous amount of potential. If we had a must-win game tomorrow and were missing 10 wings, then I'd pick Woodburn, but in terms of who's got a future with England, it's Cokanasiga all the way.

Puja

I can see Cokanasiga’s obvious potential, but I thought he looked a liability positionally and defensively for the U20s and his time in the AP (albeit limited) doesn’t warrant any attention.

You might argue he’s in a struggling side, but that hasn’t stopped Lewington from looking good.

A couple of years ago, I might have agreed Woodburn wasn’t test class, but I’d say he’s arguably the most improved player in the Premiership since joining Chiefs and I now think he’s at least worth a wider squad place.

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:
You’re probably right in that it’s probably not in Chiefs’ best interests to experiment, but I don’t think he’s a bad decision-maker these days.

Possibly a left field idea, but I’m still not convinced by Watson at 15 or any of the current alternatives so I thought I’d throw it out there.

Even taking the fullback idea out of the equation, I’d much rather he’d been called in to the training squad than Cokanasiga.

I have to say I don't see an international player in Woodburn. He's in a good run of form and playing in a good team that affords him lots of opportunities. He's like Sharples or Bassett - solid enough and, in peaks of form, might make the grade, but not someone with the talent to be a long-term international.

Cokanasiga, on the other hand, has just a ridiculous amount of potential. If we had a must-win game tomorrow and were missing 10 wings, then I'd pick Woodburn, but in terms of who's got a future with England, it's Cokanasiga all the way.

Puja

I can see Cokanasiga’s obvious potential, but I thought he looked a liability positionally and defensively for the U20s and his time in the AP (albeit limited) doesn’t warrant any attention.

You might argue he’s in a struggling side, but that hasn’t stopped Lewington from looking good.

A couple of years ago, I might have agreed Woodburn wasn’t test class, but I’d say he’s arguably the most improved player in the Premiership since joining Chiefs and I now think he’s at least worth a wider squad place.

Agreed, but Lewington has at least five years on 'Little' Joe and didn't look as promising (or at least dangerous) when he was that green. Plus, Lil' Joe has the build that many/most, including me, would like to see somewhere in the backline when we're likely playing Ford, Daly, Fazlet, Joseph, May, Watson. A big linebusting lump would be mighty welcome, even if only at 65mins and Roko just isn't going to make the squad.

Danno wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote:
I have to say I don't see an international player in Woodburn. He's in a good run of form and playing in a good team that affords him lots of opportunities. He's like Sharples or Bassett - solid enough and, in peaks of form, might make the grade, but not someone with the talent to be a long-term international.

Cokanasiga, on the other hand, has just a ridiculous amount of potential. If we had a must-win game tomorrow and were missing 10 wings, then I'd pick Woodburn, but in terms of who's got a future with England, it's Cokanasiga all the way.

Puja

I can see Cokanasiga’s obvious potential, but I thought he looked a liability positionally and defensively for the U20s and his time in the AP (albeit limited) doesn’t warrant any attention.

You might argue he’s in a struggling side, but that hasn’t stopped Lewington from looking good.

A couple of years ago, I might have agreed Woodburn wasn’t test class, but I’d say he’s arguably the most improved player in the Premiership since joining Chiefs and I now think he’s at least worth a wider squad place.

Agreed, but Lewington has at least five years on 'Little' Joe and didn't look as promising (or at least dangerous) when he was that green. Plus, Lil' Joe has the build that many/most, including me, would like to see somewhere in the backline when we're likely playing Ford, Daly, Fazlet, Joseph, May, Watson. A big linebusting lump would be mighty welcome, even if only at 65mins and Roko just isn't going to make the squad.

As Danno said, he is 20 years of age! He's got a lot of learning still to do and I've no problem with him getting an accelerated course.

Puja

On the subject of fringe players, does anyone know if we're getting an England A match this year? The lack of announcements suggest no, but I'd be keen if only to give the youngsters a chance to show their stuff in an adult representative team. And to pick Vellacott, Graham and whomever else the Celts might have their beady little eyes on, of course.

Puja

Scrumhead wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Speaking of fullbacks, I just had a random thought ...

So Ollie Woodburn is one of the best under a high ball in the AP, has good positional sense, tackles well, can turn the ball over and runs good lines in attack.

Admittedly I’m not sure about his kicking game, but it looks to me as though he has a good skill set for a fullback and if I were him, I’d be looking at the England squad and think I l’d have a better chance of getting in at 15 rather than on the wing.

Exeter have Short, Nowell and Turner to cover the wing spots, so if he pushed for it to happen, I’d see it as a worthwhile experiment.

Shouldn't think the Chiefs will with a load of big games to come. He's never struck me as a likely 15, nor a good decision maker. If he wants to spend a season or two in the a league at 15, that's up to him I suppose,, but I'd be amazed if Chiefs would support it. An experiment at 15 can, and does, cost games, especially at the top level.

You’re probably right in that it’s probably not in Chiefs’ best interests to experiment, but I don’t think he’s a bad decision-maker these days.

Possibly a left field idea, but I’m still not convinced by Watson at 15 or any of the current alternatives so I thought I’d throw it out there.

Even taking the fullback idea out of the equation, I’d much rather he’d been called in to the training squad than Cokanasiga.

Probably better to try someone who had actually played 15, If converting from another position - Slade, Nowell, Daly spring to mind. See Johnny May for example of experimenting

Puja wrote:On the subject of fringe players, does anyone know if we're getting an England A match this year? The lack of announcements suggest no, but I'd be keen if only to give the youngsters a chance to show their stuff in an adult representative team. And to pick Vellacott, Graham and whomever else the Celts might have their beady little eyes on, of course.

Puja

True. The Saxons games are always interesting. I’m surprised the Irish don’t use the Wolfhounds more too.

Banquo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Banquo wrote: Shouldn't think the Chiefs will with a load of big games to come. He's never struck me as a likely 15, nor a good decision maker. If he wants to spend a season or two in the a league at 15, that's up to him I suppose,, but I'd be amazed if Chiefs would support it. An experiment at 15 can, and does, cost games, especially at the top level.

You’re probably right in that it’s probably not in Chiefs’ best interests to experiment, but I don’t think he’s a bad decision-maker these days.

Possibly a left field idea, but I’m still not convinced by Watson at 15 or any of the current alternatives so I thought I’d throw it out there.

Even taking the fullback idea out of the equation, I’d much rather he’d been called in to the training squad than Cokanasiga.

Probably better to try someone who had actually played 15, If converting from another position - Slade, Nowell, Daly spring to mind. See Johnny May for example of experimenting

You are aware that May has actually played 15 semi-regularly in the past? Actually more recently than Daly, if memory serves, although I suspect Daly would make less of a pig's ear of being dropped back into it unexpectedly.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:
You’re probably right in that it’s probably not in Chiefs’ best interests to experiment, but I don’t think he’s a bad decision-maker these days.

Possibly a left field idea, but I’m still not convinced by Watson at 15 or any of the current alternatives so I thought I’d throw it out there.

Even taking the fullback idea out of the equation, I’d much rather he’d been called in to the training squad than Cokanasiga.

Probably better to try someone who had actually played 15, If converting from another position - Slade, Nowell, Daly spring to mind. See Johnny May for example of experimenting

You are aware that May has actually played 15 semi-regularly in the past? Actually more recently than Daly, if memory serves, although I suspect Daly would make less of a pig's ear of being dropped back into it unexpectedly.

Puja

I wasn't (thought he'd filled in occasionally) and it didn't show- not a position I'd stick him at regularly; notwithstanding, it looked experimental. I knew he'd played 13 a bit- before Saturday, when did he last play there (15) as a starter. If anything, kind of emphasises the need to learn it properly.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: Probably better to try someone who had actually played 15, If converting from another position - Slade, Nowell, Daly spring to mind. See Johnny May for example of experimenting

You are aware that May has actually played 15 semi-regularly in the past? Actually more recently than Daly, if memory serves, although I suspect Daly would make less of a pig's ear of being dropped back into it unexpectedly.

Puja

I wasn't (thought he'd filled in occasionally) and it didn't show- not a position I'd stick him at regularly; notwithstanding, it looked experimental. I knew he'd played 13 a bit- before Saturday, when did he last play there (15) as a starter. If anything, kind of emphasises the need to learn it properly.

May offers a lot from the wing but positional nous, composure and kicking skills are not obvious attributes. Slade and Daly offer all three.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: Probably better to try someone who had actually played 15, If converting from another position - Slade, Nowell, Daly spring to mind. See Johnny May for example of experimenting

You are aware that May has actually played 15 semi-regularly in the past? Actually more recently than Daly, if memory serves, although I suspect Daly would make less of a pig's ear of being dropped back into it unexpectedly.

Puja

I wasn't (thought he'd filled in occasionally) and it didn't show- not a position I'd stick him at regularly; notwithstanding, it looked experimental. I knew he'd played 13 a bit- before Saturday, when did he last play there (15) as a starter. If anything, kind of emphasises the need to learn it properly.

He played there for Gloucester at around the same sort of time that Daly was 15 for Wasps, so maybe about 4 years ago. I'd like to say he was rusty, but IIRC, he didn't look that coordinated at 15 back then either.

It's definitely something he keeps on his CV, because he's been our dedicated 15 back-up for the past few games, so he's obviously volunteered it as something he can do.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
You are aware that May has actually played 15 semi-regularly in the past? Actually more recently than Daly, if memory serves, although I suspect Daly would make less of a pig's ear of being dropped back into it unexpectedly.

Puja

I wasn't (thought he'd filled in occasionally) and it didn't show- not a position I'd stick him at regularly; notwithstanding, it looked experimental. I knew he'd played 13 a bit- before Saturday, when did he last play there (15) as a starter. If anything, kind of emphasises the need to learn it properly.

He played there for Gloucester at around the same sort of time that Daly was 15 for Wasps, so maybe about 4 years ago. I'd like to say he was rusty, but IIRC, he didn't look that coordinated at 15 back then either.

Puja

that's a long time, so I'll stick with experimental. He may want it on his CV, but like Woodburn to me, doesn't look a good fit for his skills or decision making ability. Its not a position that's easy to flit in and out of.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: I wasn't (thought he'd filled in occasionally) and it didn't show- not a position I'd stick him at regularly; notwithstanding, it looked experimental. I knew he'd played 13 a bit- before Saturday, when did he last play there (15) as a starter. If anything, kind of emphasises the need to learn it properly.

He played there for Gloucester at around the same sort of time that Daly was 15 for Wasps, so maybe about 4 years ago. I'd like to say he was rusty, but IIRC, he didn't look that coordinated at 15 back then either.

Puja

that's a long time, so I'll stick with experimental. He may want it on his CV, but like Woodburn to me, doesn't look a good fit for his skills or decision making ability. Its not a position that's easy to flit in and out of.

And yet people keep touting players like Daly, Nowell, and Watson there? Granted, I think they'd do a better job and be more suited to it than May (low bar), but Daly especially hasn't played there in such a long time as to make his previous experience almost meaningless.

Puja

People keep touting Watson there because he keeps playing there...