RugbyRebels

Adam_P wrote:

padprop wrote:

Rich wrote:

Hartley's mythical leadership skills were most evident in the 2015 RWC where a rudderless England lost at home to Wales and Australia.

The scrum was crap too.

I mean its a stretch in the first place if he even played those games, but he wasn't even in the 23.

Chin up.

I think that is exactly the point that Rich was making? That England were an absolute shambles with Youngs at hooker and without the leadership of Hartley.

The use of the word mythical would suggest otherwise but it's the only way it makes sense.

Well he is clearly suggesting that Hartley's leadership skills are not mythical, which I agree with. If Hartley is as crap a hooker as most on this board suggest, then his leadership skills must surely be astronomical for Eddie Jones to like him so much.

Adam_P wrote:Well he is clearly suggesting that Hartley's leadership skills are not mythical, which I agree with. If Hartley is as crap a hooker as most on this board suggest, then his leadership skills must surely be astronomical for Eddie Jones to like him so much.

Or maybe he just likes a hooker thats very solid in the set piece and hits a lot of rucks?

padprop wrote:

Adam_P wrote:Well he is clearly suggesting that Hartley's leadership skills are not mythical, which I agree with. If Hartley is as crap a hooker as most on this board suggest, then his leadership skills must surely be astronomical for Eddie Jones to like him so much.

Or maybe he just likes a hooker thats very solid in the set piece and hits a lot of rucks?

And makes him captain ever since he has taken over? It is clearly working, there is no doubt in my mind that Hartley is a great leader. Eddie Jones is not an idiot, and clearly agrees.

Adam_P wrote:

padprop wrote:

Adam_P wrote:Well he is clearly suggesting that Hartley's leadership skills are not mythical, which I agree with. If Hartley is as crap a hooker as most on this board suggest, then his leadership skills must surely be astronomical for Eddie Jones to like him so much.

Or maybe he just likes a hooker thats very solid in the set piece and hits a lot of rucks?

And makes him captain ever since he has taken over? It is clearly working, there is no doubt in my mind that Hartley is a great leader. Eddie Jones is not an idiot, and clearly agrees.

I agree his leadership must be highly regarded, but I just don't get the camp of people that can see now possible reason why Hartley is starting over George. Yes, George is by far the more complete rugby player, but the job that eddie wants from his hooker maybe suits Hartley a lot better.

Mellsblue wrote:If I had to guess Jones’s XXIII if all are fit and in form:
Mako
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Itoje
Robshaw
Underhill
Billy

Youngs
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Teo
Watson
Brown

George
Marler
Sinckler
Launchbury
Hughes
Care
Joseph
Nowell


I’m hoping he wants to evolve the back 3 to get rid of Brown but I’m getting less sure of that by the match.

You assuming Tuilagi is perma-crocked?

Guess I need to try and get around to doing ruck marks, see where the breakdown work ended up. Bit different since it wasn't a top tier nation, but may still show us some stuff. Not sure I can be bothered though...

padprop wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:If I had to guess Jones’s XXIII if all are fit and in form:
Mako
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Itoje
Robshaw
Underhill
Billy

Youngs
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Teo
Watson
Brown

George
Marler
Sinckler
Launchbury
Hughes
Care
Joseph
Nowell


I’m hoping he wants to evolve the back 3 to get rid of Brown but I’m getting less sure of that by the match.

You assuming Tuilagi is perma-crocked?

Yep.

Anyone catch the Japan France game? My lord.

Mellsblue wrote:

Rich wrote:

Spiffy wrote:...Jones has already said that Hartley is his 6N captain. He is consistently average-to-poor as a player and I don't think I've ever actually seen the mythical leadership skills on the pitch.

Hartley's mythical leadership skills were most evident in the 2015 RWC where a rudderless England lost at home to Wales and Australia.

The scrum was crap too.

Not sure we can blame him for the outcome of those matches.....

No, we can blame Lancaster for dropping his captain and best hooker.

Mellsblue wrote:

Adam_P wrote:

padprop wrote:
I mean its a stretch in the first place if he even played those games, but he wasn't even in the 23.

Chin up.

I think that is exactly the point that Rich was making? That England were an absolute shambles with Youngs at hooker and without the leadership of Hartley.

The use of the word mythical would suggest otherwise but it's the only way it makes sense.

Perhaps I should have put "mythical" in inverted commas ?

Rich wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Rich wrote:

Hartley's mythical leadership skills were most evident in the 2015 RWC where a rudderless England lost at home to Wales and Australia.

The scrum was crap too.

Not sure we can blame him for the outcome of those matches.....

No, we can blame Lancaster for dropping his captain and best hooker.

except he wasn't his captain....and wasn't he banned for the 1st week of the world cup?

padprop wrote:Anyone catch the Japan France game? My lord.

Good for Japan! I think the game needed that with the RWC looming on the horizon. You'd've thought the French will be battling the Italians for the wooden spoon come the 6N.

I think we'll actually learn more about where this team is come the 6N actually. We are injury-ridden, experimenting, and coming up against some very average opposition. Given that Scotland and Ireland are clearly better than any of the teams we've faced this autumn and that Wales will be a different team if any of them stay fit, I expect it to be a tougher challenge and one that we'll take more seriously.

Puja

If everyone was fit, I think Jones' England XV would look like:

Mako
Hartley
Cole

Itoje
Kruis/Lawes (form choice)

Hughes
Underhill
Billy V

Youngs
Ford / Farrell (form choice)

Daly
T'eo
Joseph
Watson

Brown


If Ford could kick nervously like Farrell does, he would be nailed on at No 10 but we all know he can't...I get the feeling that Jones wants a "bosh" option in the midfield and T'eo or (if ever he gets fit) Tuilagi will make the staring XV

The back row is interesting, Robshaw is always willing but there's a reason he doesn't make Lions tours, he's not amongst the best in the British Isles let alone the world. With Billy V at No 8, Hughes will, I think move the blindside. Who plays openside is open to question...the back row is still a grey area as far as selection goes.

Banquo wrote:

Rich wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Not sure we can blame him for the outcome of those matches.....

No, we can blame Lancaster for dropping his captain and best hooker.

except he wasn't his captain....and wasn't he banned for the 1st week of the world cup?

He was and IMO still is the best option for captain.

Even though he was banned for the first week of the world cup, it was Lancaster biggest mistake to drop him from the world cup squad.

England's set piece (especially the scrum) went to hell with no Hartley.

Rich wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Rich wrote:

No, we can blame Lancaster for dropping his captain and best hooker.

except he wasn't his captain....and wasn't he banned for the 1st week of the world cup?

He was and IMO still is the best option for captain.

Even though he was banned for the first week of the world cup, it was Lancaster biggest mistake to drop him from the world cup squad.

England's set piece (especially the scrum) went to hell with no Hartley.

The scum was nothing to do with Hartley though. It looked weak in the 6N when Hartley played and strong against a very strong French side and Irish side when Youngs played. Just because Youngs is short, people think he can't scrummage and there was never any correlation for that.

The lineout is a fair cop; I'll give you that one.

Puja

So how physical was that game? It didn't really strike me as anything special. I'd expect more from Wales, Ireland, NZ easily, and probably more from France, SA, Arg and Aus.

Think it was Digby who said some of the players came back from the lions saying that NZ seem to actively try and hurt you, and with that in mind, and watching them play during this series, it really does resonate, they genuinely do seem to really hit with an intent not much seen elsewhere.

Rich wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Rich wrote:

No, we can blame Lancaster for dropping his captain and best hooker.

except he wasn't his captain....and wasn't he banned for the 1st week of the world cup?

He was and IMO still is the best option for captain.

Even though he was banned for the first week of the world cup, it was Lancaster biggest mistake to drop him from the world cup squad.

England's set piece (especially the scrum) went to hell with no Hartley.

well he wasn't Lancaster's captain, which is what you said. And Lancaster made much bigger mistakes.

If Eddie is done with experimenting, has anyone forced their way past Ford/Farrell/Joseph to make him change anything at 10/12/13? T'eo hasn't played. Tuilagi is always injured. Slade and Lozowski have offered a mixed bag without convincing.

Eddie now has to pick a team to win with no base of continuity to work from.

In the forwards, a simple form check might pick front and second rows from strength. Similarly, three from four - Brown, Watson, Daly and May - gives a convincing back unit.

Back-row? Robshaw and Billy to start but who gets the 3rd shirt? If I was picking a team to win at all costs tomorrow I'd not be sure of Underhill or Simmonds.

Not picking Hartley doesn't equate to making a mistake. Not that I can remember which ban saw him miss out on another big event

Oakboy wrote:If Eddie is done with experimenting, has anyone forced their way past Ford/Farrell/Joseph to make him change anything at 10/12/13? T'eo hasn't played. Tuilagi is always injured. Slade and Lozowski have offered a mixed bag without convincing.

Eddie now has to pick a team to win with no base of continuity to work from.

In the forwards, a simple form check might pick front and second rows from strength. Similarly, three from four - Brown, Watson, Daly and May - gives a convincing back unit.

Back-row? Robshaw and Billy to start but who gets the 3rd shirt? If I was picking a team to win at all costs tomorrow I'd not be sure of Underhill or Simmonds.

Dors- I wouldn't get too fixated on knowing exactly the starting 23 for the nearly two years away world cup. You may not like it, but the majority of the squad are pretty much established and settled in EJ's mind, with some strong contenders around the edges; in any case, knowing your 23 now means nothing for the RWC- injuries and imo age will force change- plus talent could easily emerge. Nobody is picking a win at all costs game tomorrow- that's the point of why he is looking at options.

Oakboy wrote:If Eddie is done with experimenting, has anyone forced their way past Ford/Farrell/Joseph to make him change anything at 10/12/13? T'eo hasn't played. Tuilagi is always injured. Slade and Lozowski have offered a mixed bag without convincing.

Eddie now has to pick a team to win with no base of continuity to work from.

In the forwards, a simple form check might pick front and second rows from strength. Similarly, three from four - Brown, Watson, Daly and May - gives a convincing back unit.

Back-row? Robshaw and Billy to start but who gets the 3rd shirt? If I was picking a team to win at all costs tomorrow I'd not be sure of Underhill or Simmonds.

I think Loz and Slade have both proved they are options. Loz at 12 and Slade at 13. I’d have Loz ahead of Farrell but we know that ain’t going to happen. I think Teo is ahead of both solely due to the type of player he is.

For the back row, I’d agree that it’s tgree from those four. I’d start Underhill and have Simmonds in the bench.

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:If Eddie is done with experimenting, has anyone forced their way past Ford/Farrell/Joseph to make him change anything at 10/12/13? T'eo hasn't played. Tuilagi is always injured. Slade and Lozowski have offered a mixed bag without convincing.

Eddie now has to pick a team to win with no base of continuity to work from.

In the forwards, a simple form check might pick front and second rows from strength. Similarly, three from four - Brown, Watson, Daly and May - gives a convincing back unit.

Back-row? Robshaw and Billy to start but who gets the 3rd shirt? If I was picking a team to win at all costs tomorrow I'd not be sure of Underhill or Simmonds.

Dors- I wouldn't get too fixated on knowing exactly the starting 23 for the nearly two years away world cup. You may not like it, but the majority of the squad are pretty much established and settled in EJ's mind, with some strong contenders around the edges; in any case, knowing your 23 now means nothing for the RWC- injuries and imo age will force change- plus talent could easily emerge. Nobody is picking a win at all costs game tomorrow- that's the point of why he is looking at options.

I accept that. However, the 6N is a must-win, IMO. The next time Eddie has the players together it IS to pick his best available 23. Yes, the RWC is not tomorrow but we have to start building a team. At present we have a reasonable group of players with hardly any cohesion. We are butchering chances, not so much because of individual skill-flaws (except for Brown), but because we lack unit-based practice. Nothing looks slick and co-ordinated in attack.

Oakboy wrote: I accept that. However, the 6N is a must-win, IMO.

More than normal is that? And either way why?

I'm not sure any fringe/new player made an unanswerable case for selection over the 3 games. I liked what i saw of Underhill and think Simmonds played really well yesterday. They should be involved in the 6N's. Slade did enough without quite nailing it. Feel he's better at 13 and theres more to come. Be nice to start seeing it consistently. Loz and Francis, who looked very good yesterday, are in the same boat. Williams was underplayed and really should have started one of the games. Genge is there or thereabouts. Its going to be a great tussle to see who wins the No 1 shirt. Ewels and Isiekwe show promise but unless there are injuries, its difficult to see them being involved much.
They are all in the mix.
We do have great depth in most positions when you factor in the players who have been missing.
Now about that 3rd SH......