Lions squad named

[Big D]

Live action picture of Biggar

[Big D]

I'm with you on Farrell having been rotten and also that I don't believe he has the skills to unpick the Boks defence, however I would say there is somewhere between zero and no chance of Gatland not having him in his XXIII. I don't rate him as a captain at all and, while he's a decent player, I don't see him as this world class performer that he's so often held up as. However, the fact remains that coach after coach after coach won't stop picking him, presumably for character reasons that we can't see, and I don't see Gatland breaking that streak. I'll be surprised enough if he benches him!

I hope I'm wrong, cause he's been pretty average since Saracens got relegated and he got a year long rest to get rusty in, but I don't think I will be.

Puja

I thought he was a shoe in at 12 pre tour but Henshaw at 12 for Saturday has to be a pointer to the test team imo.

[Mellsblue]

Ah, the non-England supporter thinking Farrell will rightly be dropped because he was rank average....

[Mellsblue]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see that front row or back row named for the first test. Would be Gatland picking predominantly on form rather than favourites but it could happen.
That backline could be amazing to watch.

[Puja]

Ah, the non-England supporter thinking Farrell will rightly be dropped because he was rank average....

It's why I enjoy the Lions. The supporters of all four nations getting to share in each others everyday experiences - excitement over Rees-Zammit's potential, admitting that Rory Sutherland probably is better than your loosehead, enjoying the fun of watching Henshaw bosh, expressing confusion as to why Owen Farrell is utterly undroppable.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I think Mr. Motivator makes the 23 regardless of form. Whatever it was that POC was rambling about in that Lions changing room video seems to be enough.

I think this tour is largely nonsense, and it's a shame we won't get what could have been a far better tour next year instead, but I'm very interested to see where Gatland and his team land in terms of tactics and approach in the tests.

[Numbers]

From what I have seen so far there are a few who I reckon are nailed on for the test team:

George
Furlong
Itoje
H Watson
Adams

Beirne is close also as is A Watson

[Son of Mathonwy]

Eh. I think Smith could score 50 points personally and still not stand a chance - the Stormers aren't a strong enough opposition to change Gatland's mind about things that he's already certain about. The last opportunity for a bolter to make their way in for the tests was the A game.

Puja

I am not so sure. Farrell was rotten last night and it showed that the boks defence is hard to break down and Farrell although a player I rate, doesn't have the skills to do it.

If the coaches plan was for Russell to be the bench 10, which we don't really know it was or wasn't, then they'd at least need to discuss Smith if he puts up a really great performance. I didn't say I would or they should pick him but it would need to be discussed and be interesting.

I'm with you on Farrell having been rotten and also that I don't believe he has the skills to unpick the Boks defence, however I would say there is somewhere between zero and no chance of Gatland not having him in his XXIII. I don't rate him as a captain at all and, while he's a decent player, I don't see him as this world class performer that he's so often held up as. However, the fact remains that coach after coach after coach won't stop picking him, presumably for character reasons that we can't see, and I don't see Gatland breaking that streak. I'll be surprised enough if he benches him!

I hope I'm wrong, cause he's been pretty average since Saracens got relegated and he got a year long rest to get rusty in, but I don't think I will be.

Puja

What is it all about? Even Gatland, the man who dropped BOD, doesn't seem likely to do the same for Farrell. It's like a place needs to be found for him, and he's not even captain.

Hopefully Gats will prove me wrong. Or Farrell will become brilliant.

[Son of Mathonwy]

From what I have seen so far there are a few who I reckon are nailed on for the test team:

George
Furlong
Itoje
H Watson
Adams

Beirne is close also as is A Watson

I'd add Wyn Jones. And Biggar.

Not convinced about A Watson, I see Van der Merwe ahead of him. And LRZ in contention too.
For me, Owens is too good for George to be nailed on.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Hoping for neutral refs in the tests.

[Big D]

I am not so sure. Farrell was rotten last night and it showed that the boks defence is hard to break down and Farrell although a player I rate, doesn't have the skills to do it.

If the coaches plan was for Russell to be the bench 10, which we don't really know it was or wasn't, then they'd at least need to discuss Smith if he puts up a really great performance. I didn't say I would or they should pick him but it would need to be discussed and be interesting.

I'm with you on Farrell having been rotten and also that I don't believe he has the skills to unpick the Boks defence, however I would say there is somewhere between zero and no chance of Gatland not having him in his XXIII. I don't rate him as a captain at all and, while he's a decent player, I don't see him as this world class performer that he's so often held up as. However, the fact remains that coach after coach after coach won't stop picking him, presumably for character reasons that we can't see, and I don't see Gatland breaking that streak. I'll be surprised enough if he benches him!

I hope I'm wrong, cause he's been pretty average since Saracens got relegated and he got a year long rest to get rusty in, but I don't think I will be.

Puja

What is it all about? Even Gatland, the man who dropped BOD, doesn't seem likely to do the same for Farrell. It's like a place needs to be found for him, and he's not even captain.

Hopefully Gats will prove me wrong. Or Farrell will become brilliant.

He also benched Warburton in NZ.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I'm with you on Farrell having been rotten and also that I don't believe he has the skills to unpick the Boks defence, however I would say there is somewhere between zero and no chance of Gatland not having him in his XXIII. I don't rate him as a captain at all and, while he's a decent player, I don't see him as this world class performer that he's so often held up as. However, the fact remains that coach after coach after coach won't stop picking him, presumably for character reasons that we can't see, and I don't see Gatland breaking that streak. I'll be surprised enough if he benches him!

I hope I'm wrong, cause he's been pretty average since Saracens got relegated and he got a year long rest to get rusty in, but I don't think I will be.

Puja

What is it all about? Even Gatland, the man who dropped BOD, doesn't seem likely to do the same for Farrell. It's like a place needs to be found for him, and he's not even captain.

Hopefully Gats will prove me wrong. Or Farrell will become brilliant.

He also benched Warburton in NZ.

True, although that was after years of preferring Warburton to Tipuric at 7.

[Banquo]

From what I have seen so far there are a few who I reckon are nailed on for the test team:

George
Furlong
Itoje
H Watson
Adams

Beirne is close also as is A Watson

Agreed, and if you try and put Watson and Curry in the same backrow, you'll get smashed at the breakdown imo. I'd also have Biggar nailed on if he wasn't a bit crocked.

Farrell should be sent home, he stinks the place up so much; Murray was pretty poor as well. 13 has to be Henshaw, except we don't have a 12 then.

[Puja]

From what I have seen so far there are a few who I reckon are nailed on for the test team:

George
Furlong
Itoje
H Watson
Adams

Beirne is close also as is A Watson

Agreed, and if you try and put Watson and Curry in the same backrow, you'll get smashed at the breakdown imo. I'd also have Biggar nailed on if he wasn't a bit crocked.

Farrell should be sent home, he stinks the place up so much; Murray was pretty poor as well. 13 has to be Henshaw, except we don't have a 12 then.

Wait, you think you'd get smashed at the breakdown with Watson and Curry? Cause if I was picking a team solely around performing at the breakdown, it'd probably have those two in it.

Puja

[Banquo]

From what I have seen so far there are a few who I reckon are nailed on for the test team:

George
Furlong
Itoje
H Watson
Adams

Beirne is close also as is A Watson

Agreed, and if you try and put Watson and Curry in the same backrow, you'll get smashed at the breakdown imo. I'd also have Biggar nailed on if he wasn't a bit crocked.

Farrell should be sent home, he stinks the place up so much; Murray was pretty poor as well. 13 has to be Henshaw, except we don't have a 12 then.

Wait, you think you'd get smashed at the breakdown with Watson and Curry? Cause if I was picking a team solely around performing at the breakdown, it'd probably have those two in it.

Puja

Did you watch last night? If you aren't quite a chunky monkey, you will just get knocked off the ball. If you go in relatively lightweight against SA, you will have issues. Its not just about the ability to get over the ball, I'd have thought you would know that, as a forward; see Curry and Underhill RWC 2019. So yes imo; pretty easy to spot how SA will play. Of course we could try and play uber quickly....but that means something else for the backline.

[whatisthejava]

Curry was good but I’m wondering if we will see a Curry/Watson/Simmons. Back row for the first test. Beirne and Navidi are good but not in the same class as those 2.

Simmonds has been anonymous for me and seems to be struggling to be involved. What is it that you've seen? Or is the cupboard a bit bare?

Weirdly I changed my mind to Conan today but actually think faletua could be it.

Can’t decide what Gatland is going to do. The plan A failed yesterday and I’m wondering what Gatland does next

[whatisthejava]

That 5 kg that H Watson is lacking is the heaviest 5kg in the history of the universe

[Banquo]

That 5 kg that H Watson is lacking is the heaviest 5kg in the history of the universe

Not sure what that refers to, but I’d pick him. But he needs ballast around for how SA will play.

[jngf]

I'd pick Watson Faletau and either Curry or Beirne.

Simmons has looked a good club player in the bits I have seen but not done anything to answer doubts. I think Faletau is coming back into some form.

Watson has been a standout all tour. Curry is a very good all round player but (I didn't see the second half today), I wouldn't say has been amazing for a while.

I don't normally like locks at 6 but Beirne impresses every time he plays. Has that mobility and game awareness. I see Lawes as more of a bench option personally.

Curry was very good today. And he can play 8. Faletau/Conan/Simmonds have not been that impressive (though I'd say that Conan looks sharper than the other two.)
On form I'd go for a back row of Beirne (6), Watson (7) and Curry (8).
Big problem at 10 where Farrell lies deep, does not threaten the gain line, just shovels the ball on, or more usually, kicks away possession repeatedly. The Lions had a lot of possession but wasted most of it. They need Henshaw in midfield, whether at 12 or 13. Don't know his fitness status.

Beg to differ

[Digby]

Curry was good but I’m wondering if we will see a Curry/Watson/Simmons. Back row for the first test. Beirne and Navidi are good but not in the same class as those 2.

Simmonds has been anonymous for me and seems to be struggling to be involved. What is it that you've seen? Or is the cupboard a bit bare?

Weirdly I changed my mind to Conan today but actually think faletua could be it.

Can’t decide what Gatland is going to do. The plan A failed yesterday and I’m wondering what Gatland does next

Plan A, harder, it's Gats

[Puja]

Agreed, and if you try and put Watson and Curry in the same backrow, you'll get smashed at the breakdown imo. I'd also have Biggar nailed on if he wasn't a bit crocked.

Farrell should be sent home, he stinks the place up so much; Murray was pretty poor as well. 13 has to be Henshaw, except we don't have a 12 then.

Wait, you think you'd get smashed at the breakdown with Watson and Curry? Cause if I was picking a team solely around performing at the breakdown, it'd probably have those two in it.

Puja

Did you watch last night? If you aren't quite a chunky monkey, you will just get knocked off the ball. If you go in relatively lightweight against SA, you will have issues. Its not just about the ability to get over the ball, I'd have thought you would know that, as a forward; see Curry and Underhill RWC 2019. So yes imo; pretty easy to spot how SA will play. Of course we could try and play uber quickly....but that means something else for the backline.

I saw bits and pieces of last night, but I was working so I wasn't really in a position to do good analysis work. Were we turned over lots? I know that we got a half-decent number of turnovers with Simmonds and Curry in the back row and stopped SA from getting quick ball, so I'd call that half-decent. I don't remember Underhill and Curry being smashed about in the RWC final as a major issue (although I have repressed that game quite well) and I would counter that good technique and timing trumps physicality every time at the ruck - no point going smash if you've been beaten there and they're in a great position (although I doubt that'll stop Jasper Wiese from getting a yellow card for something).

If you called out Watson/Curry for lack of impact in carrying or defending against big close carriers, I'd be on board, but picking them out for their strongest area because the other side are less adept, but more physical, seems like an odd choice.

That 5 kg that H Watson is lacking is the heaviest 5kg in the history of the universe

Not sure what that refers to, but I’d pick him. But he needs ballast around for how SA will play.

He's noting that Watson is only a very small weight lighter than other players who are seen as good, physical options and that him being 5kg "underweight" seems to make a ridiculous amount of difference in the minds of a lot of people. A quick google says Watson is 8kg lighter than Faletau or Curry, players that no-one says you need ballast to play alongside. He's also same weight as Simmonds and only 3kg off Navidi.

Puja

[Banquo]

Wait, you think you'd get smashed at the breakdown with Watson and Curry? Cause if I was picking a team solely around performing at the breakdown, it'd probably have those two in it.

Puja

Did you watch last night? If you aren't quite a chunky monkey, you will just get knocked off the ball. If you go in relatively lightweight against SA, you will have issues. Its not just about the ability to get over the ball, I'd have thought you would know that, as a forward; see Curry and Underhill RWC 2019. So yes imo; pretty easy to spot how SA will play. Of course we could try and play uber quickly....but that means something else for the backline.

I saw bits and pieces of last night, but I was working so I wasn't really in a position to do good analysis work. Were we turned over lots? I know that we got a half-decent number of turnovers with Simmonds and Curry in the back row and stopped SA from getting quick ball, so I'd call that half-decent. I don't remember Underhill and Curry being smashed about in the RWC final as a major issue (although I have repressed that game quite well) and I would counter that good technique and timing trumps physicality every time at the ruck - no point going smash if you've been beaten there and they're in a great position (although I doubt that'll stop Jasper Wiese from getting a yellow card for something).

If you called out Watson/Curry for lack of impact in carrying or defending against big close carriers, I'd be on board, but picking them out for their strongest area because the other side are less adept, but more physical, seems like an odd choice.

That 5 kg that H Watson is lacking is the heaviest 5kg in the history of the universe

Not sure what that refers to, but I’d pick him. But he needs ballast around for how SA will play.

He's noting that Watson is only a very small weight lighter than other players who are seen as good, physical options and that him being 5kg "underweight" seems to make a ridiculous amount of difference in the minds of a lot of people. A quick google says Watson is 8kg lighter than Faletau or Curry, players that no-one says you need ballast to play alongside. He's also same weight as Simmonds and only 3kg off Navidi.

Puja

we were hammered at the breakdown in the first half, muscled off the ball , counter rucked and turned over- shouldnt have been a surprise how SA (and this was a test quality pack) played, as it was what they did last time out in the RWC final. .....When we were hammered at the breakdown- and whilst SA approach the breakdown differently wtth mad physicality and bulk, that doesnt mean they lack technique, decision making or tactical nous. So if you want to play two 7's, even if one is at 8, you`ll need to compensate else you'll be really struggling as happened yesterday, with a pretty handy tight 5 at the breakdown, but relatively small back row. And now you mention the carrying either side of the ball......and I cant see hw we would compensate tbh. You have to match em physically, or you get steamrollered.
On another note, I'd expect the scrum to come under pressure a fair bit, and would worry re Curry's experience and control at the base plus carrying from the base under pressure.

PS also note that you supported a Beirne, Curry, Faletau backrow earlier? and 8kg is quite a lot of weight....and most conventional 7 s need some ballast with then, its not a slight and esp so v SA (though sheer commitment helps!). I rate Watson, hence having him as a cert.

[Puja]

Did you watch last night? If you aren't quite a chunky monkey, you will just get knocked off the ball. If you go in relatively lightweight against SA, you will have issues. Its not just about the ability to get over the ball, I'd have thought you would know that, as a forward; see Curry and Underhill RWC 2019. So yes imo; pretty easy to spot how SA will play. Of course we could try and play uber quickly....but that means something else for the backline.

I saw bits and pieces of last night, but I was working so I wasn't really in a position to do good analysis work. Were we turned over lots? I know that we got a half-decent number of turnovers with Simmonds and Curry in the back row and stopped SA from getting quick ball, so I'd call that half-decent. I don't remember Underhill and Curry being smashed about in the RWC final as a major issue (although I have repressed that game quite well) and I would counter that good technique and timing trumps physicality every time at the ruck - no point going smash if you've been beaten there and they're in a great position (although I doubt that'll stop Jasper Wiese from getting a yellow card for something).

If you called out Watson/Curry for lack of impact in carrying or defending against big close carriers, I'd be on board, but picking them out for their strongest area because the other side are less adept, but more physical, seems like an odd choice.

Not sure what that refers to, but I’d pick him. But he needs ballast around for how SA will play.

He's noting that Watson is only a very small weight lighter than other players who are seen as good, physical options and that him being 5kg "underweight" seems to make a ridiculous amount of difference in the minds of a lot of people. A quick google says Watson is 8kg lighter than Faletau or Curry, players that no-one says you need ballast to play alongside. He's also same weight as Simmonds and only 3kg off Navidi.

Puja

we were hammered at the breakdown in the first half, muscled off the ball , counter rucked and turned over- shouldnt have been a surprise how SA (and this was a test quality pack) played, as it was what they did last time out in the RWC final. .....When we were hammered at the breakdown- and whilst SA approach the breakdown differently wtth mad physicality and bulk, that doesnt mean they lack technique, decision making or tactical nous. So if you want to play two 7's, even if one is at 8, you`ll need to compensate else you'll be really struggling as happened yesterday, with a pretty handy tight 5 at the breakdown, but relatively small back row. And now you mention the carrying either side of the ball......and I cant see hw we would compensate tbh. You have to match em physically, or you get steamrollered.
On another note, I'd expect the scrum to come under pressure a fair bit, and would worry re Curry's experience and control at the base plus carrying from the base under pressure.

PS also note that you supported a Beirne, Curry, Faletau backrow earlier? and 8kg is quite a lot of weight....and most conventional 7 s need some ballast with then, its not a slight and esp so v SA (though sheer commitment helps!). I rate Watson, hence having him as a cert.

Oh yeah, I'm not in favour of Beirne/Watson/Curry - there's so many risks with it in carrying and scrummaging (the control at the base is a big one) and it's not where I'd go. I just found it odd that you were ruling it out, upon the only grounds on which I'd consider ruling it in!

Puja

[morepork]

This is getting surreal now. South Africa has other priorities at the moment. Sorry, but this is bullshit.

[Mr Mwenda]

This is getting surreal now. South Africa has other priorities at the moment. Sorry, but this is bullshit.

SARU are stating that in the event of a volcano erupting in Cape Town the match will be played.

It is very rugby, mind, to be playing tour matches in empty stadia while apocalyptic conditions play out outside the ground.