RugbyRebels

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:56 pm**

At least we will have a simple situation of win=good, lose=bad. Every minute of every game up to the RWC is vital for the new head coach, the team and every player involved. There can be no pretentious bollix about saving a plan for later. We will be back to where we always should have been: planning to win every game with no excuses for under-performing.

It's time to look forward, not back.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:38 pm**

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:36 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:33 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
Wow. That is an utterly worthless use of a journalist's time.

Puja

This journalist writes for the Telegraph, a paper that today labelled Rishi Sunak's Britain of being 'socialist' .. I think it's better they waste their time on imaginary XVs tbh

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:15 pm**

I'd never thought of Burt as a 'big hitter' tbh. Nice bloke, decent coach probably, done a good assistant's job with Leinster.

Mind, I think Borthwick has his work cut out stepping up to this role and the consequent public and press exposure- I wish him well, and hope he appoints an experienced competent group of technical coaches.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:07 pm**

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:08 pm Still, i am even more disappointed that nobody more prestigious seems to be available.

Haven't we just sacked one of, if not THE most prestigious coach? I'm more interested in a successful coach than another 'name' - and I think it's fair to say that Borthwick's coaching career has developed very nicely so far; but while I don't know if Borthwick will prove to be successful, I'm not going to judge him solely on the outcome of the 2023 RWC, I just look for improvement on what has been served up for well over 12 months now.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:24 pm**

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:56 pm At least we will have a simple situation of win=good, lose=bad. Every minute of every game up to the RWC is vital for the new head coach, the team and every player involved. There can be no pretentious bollix about saving a plan for later. We will be back to where we always should have been: planning to win every game with no excuses for under-performing.

It's time to look forward, not back.

I look forward to you NOT complaining when we win games on a diet of box kicking, kicking and rolling mauls

. And again, do we have the quality to expect to win every game, which seems to be your start point irrespective of players available

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:02 pm**

Mush wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:07 pm
Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:08 pm Still, i am even more disappointed that nobody more prestigious seems to be available.

Haven't we just sacked one of, if not THE most prestigious coach? I'm more interested in a successful coach than another 'name' - and I think it's fair to say that Borthwick's coaching career has developed very nicely so far; but while I don't know if Borthwick will prove to be successful, I'm not going to judge him solely on the outcome of the 2023 RWC, I just look for improvement on what has been served up for well over 12 months now.

Yeah, I guess. It's also better than several other options such as cockerill. I am just worried that it will be too much too early and Borthwick ends up coming good as Ireland coach or something having floundered for England.

Of course, perhaps better to look to the positives until the results come in.

I also think the Jones tenure will be remembered more positively than many here seem to think. The last two years have stunk certainly, but then so have a lot of England teams before.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:20 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:24 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:56 pm At least we will have a simple situation of win=good, lose=bad. Every minute of every game up to the RWC is vital for the new head coach, the team and every player involved. There can be no pretentious bollix about saving a plan for later. We will be back to where we always should have been: planning to win every game with no excuses for under-performing.

It's time to look forward, not back.
I look forward to you NOT complaining when we win games on a diet of box kicking, kicking and rolling mauls . And again, do we have the quality to expect to win every game, which seems to be your start point irrespective of players available

Shit, on the naughty step again!

I promise to not whinge about how we win until after the RWC.

I can't believe any professional player, coach or team would NOT plan to win every game. Surely, nobody plans to lose? Getting more specific, England should look to beat every team they encounter, not try to minimise the extent of defeat or accept tame draws. If the opposition is too good for us, fair enough.

Borthwick, or whoever, must aim to beat all the NH teams and be disappointed not to win a GS. That does not mean they will. France and/or Ireland might be too good for us. But, let's see a team for each match march out 100% committed and give their all. Is that too much to ask?

Oh, and I'm not a fan of Borthwick but I am so happy to have him in charge, if it happens, whatever his methods. It is impossible for him not to be an improvement.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:26 pm**

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:20 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:24 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:56 pm At least we will have a simple situation of win=good, lose=bad. Every minute of every game up to the RWC is vital for the new head coach, the team and every player involved. There can be no pretentious bollix about saving a plan for later. We will be back to where we always should have been: planning to win every game with no excuses for under-performing.

It's time to look forward, not back.
I look forward to you NOT complaining when we win games on a diet of box kicking, kicking and rolling mauls . And again, do we have the quality to expect to win every game, which seems to be your start point irrespective of players available
Shit, on the naughty step again! I promise to not whinge about how we win until after the RWC.

I can't believe any professional player, coach or team would NOT plan to win every game. Surely, nobody plans to lose? Getting more specific, England should look to beat every team they encounter, not try to minimise the extent of defeat or accept tame draws. If the opposition is too good for us, fair enough.

Borthwick, or whoever, must aim to beat all the NH teams and be disappointed not to win a GS. That does not mean they will. France and/or Ireland might be too good for us. But, let's see a team for each match march out 100% committed and give their all. Is that too much to ask?

Oh, and I'm not a fan of Borthwick but I am so happy to have him in charge, if it happens, whatever his methods. It is impossible for him not to be an improvement.

Not at all, but you have persistently criticised the style (s) of play even when winning; now you have accepted winning is everything we can move on

.

Of course you should plan to win every game- but when critiquing post match in the event of defeat, you have to be realistic; and in preparing you have to be realistic about how you are going to win. I don't think under Eddie they didn't give 100% tbh, if anything they tended to be a bit overzealous, apart from Faz and Nowell not chasing back

. The point I was making is expecting to win a GS or every game as a fan is just unrealistic.

We will see on Borthwick- its not impossible imo for him to be worse; depends how he copes with being in front of an intl team.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:32 pm**

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:20 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:24 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:56 pm At least we will have a simple situation of win=good, lose=bad. Every minute of every game up to the RWC is vital for the new head coach, the team and every player involved. There can be no pretentious bollix about saving a plan for later. We will be back to where we always should have been: planning to win every game with no excuses for under-performing.

It's time to look forward, not back.
I look forward to you NOT complaining when we win games on a diet of box kicking, kicking and rolling mauls . And again, do we have the quality to expect to win every game, which seems to be your start point irrespective of players available
Shit, on the naughty step again! I promise to not whinge about how we win until after the RWC.

I can't believe any professional player, coach or team would NOT plan to win every game. Surely, nobody plans to lose? Getting more specific, England should look to beat every team they encounter, not try to minimise the extent of defeat or accept tame draws. If the opposition is too good for us, fair enough.

Borthwick, or whoever, must aim to beat all the NH teams and be disappointed not to win a GS. That does not mean they will. France and/or Ireland might be too good for us. But, let's see a team for each match march out 100% committed and give their all. Is that too much to ask?

Oh, and I'm not a fan of Borthwick but I am so happy to have him in charge, if it happens, whatever his methods. It is impossible for him not to be an improvement.

Seems like a weird criteria to say "aim to beat all the NH teams"? France and Ireland are pretty much undisputed as the two best sides in the world right now, so that feels like saying that we should aim to be good enough to beat everyone? Feels more like a goal from the 2010s, when the 6N were a distinct drop down from the 3N in quality so aiming to beat them would be a good solid target.

I will note, for the people tearing their hair around box-kicking, Borthwick's (limited) history as head coach so far shows he tends to adapt to what he's got available. When Leicester are missing 10 players to internationals, it's kick the leather off it and play conservative. When we've got a decent team out, it's been long passes to Nadolo in our own half to make sides regret dropping back to cover the 50:22.

Not saying that he'll have England playing like Barbarians, but he will have a very different toolbox as England coach to what he was working with from a workmanlike Leicester squad.

Puja

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:40 pm**

There are no certainties with Borthwick. He might take to it like a duck to water or he might fall flat on his face. He has experience but being #1 at this level is a demanding task. You'd expect him to take a bit of time to adjust and to get used to a different environment and personnel.
He's got the 6N's and then will have the players for quite a long camp with some pre WC games. So he's got a nice run up to the WC itself. We have a very favourable draw and its not hard to see us making a SF at least.
I guess it depends just who he can bring in to the coaching team and what they might contribute.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:44 pm**

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:32 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:20 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:24 pm

I look forward to you NOT complaining when we win games on a diet of box kicking, kicking and rolling mauls . And again, do we have the quality to expect to win every game, which seems to be your start point irrespective of players available
Shit, on the naughty step again! I promise to not whinge about how we win until after the RWC.

I can't believe any professional player, coach or team would NOT plan to win every game. Surely, nobody plans to lose? Getting more specific, England should look to beat every team they encounter, not try to minimise the extent of defeat or accept tame draws. If the opposition is too good for us, fair enough.

Borthwick, or whoever, must aim to beat all the NH teams and be disappointed not to win a GS. That does not mean they will. France and/or Ireland might be too good for us. But, let's see a team for each match march out 100% committed and give their all. Is that too much to ask?

Oh, and I'm not a fan of Borthwick but I am so happy to have him in charge, if it happens, whatever his methods. It is impossible for him not to be an improvement.
Seems like a weird criteria to say "aim to beat all the NH teams"? France and Ireland are pretty much undisputed as the two best sides in the world right now, so that feels like saying that we should aim to be good enough to beat everyone? Feels more like a goal from the 2010s, when the 6N were a distinct drop down from the 3N in quality so aiming to beat them would be a good solid target.

I will note, for the people tearing their hair around box-kicking, Borthwick's (limited) history as head coach so far shows he tends to adapt to what he's got available. When Leicester are missing 10 players to internationals, it's kick the leather off it and play conservative. When we've got a decent team out, it's been long passes to Nadolo in our own half to make sides regret dropping back to cover the 50:22.

Not saying that he'll have England playing like Barbarians, but he will have a very different toolbox as England coach to what he was working with from a workmanlike Leicester squad.

Puja

I'm slightly exeggerating, and recognise that he does cut the cloth according to what's available and pragmatism is good- but not seen anything to suggest that Dors will be celebrating a new dawn of open rugby.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:45 pm**

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:40 pm There are no certainties with Borthwick. He might take to it like a duck to water or he might fall flat on his face. He has experience but being #1 at this level is a demanding task. You'd expect him to take a bit of time to adjust and to get used to a different environment and personnel.
He's got the 6N's and then will have the players for quite a long camp with some pre WC games. So he's got a nice run up to the WC itself. We have a very favourable draw and its not hard to see us making a SF at least.
I guess it depends just who he can bring in to the coaching team and what they might contribute.

Have to say its not long at all- he would do well to a- as we've said, get the best backroom staff, b- get a mentor with intl head coach experience (someone like Jones

). Its a fast turnaround situation- funnily enough, exactly what Jones is good at

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:49 pm**

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:32 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:20 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:24 pm

I look forward to you NOT complaining when we win games on a diet of box kicking, kicking and rolling mauls . And again, do we have the quality to expect to win every game, which seems to be your start point irrespective of players available
Shit, on the naughty step again! I promise to not whinge about how we win until after the RWC.

I can't believe any professional player, coach or team would NOT plan to win every game. Surely, nobody plans to lose? Getting more specific, England should look to beat every team they encounter, not try to minimise the extent of defeat or accept tame draws. If the opposition is too good for us, fair enough.

Borthwick, or whoever, must aim to beat all the NH teams and be disappointed not to win a GS. That does not mean they will. France and/or Ireland might be too good for us. But, let's see a team for each match march out 100% committed and give their all. Is that too much to ask?

Oh, and I'm not a fan of Borthwick but I am so happy to have him in charge, if it happens, whatever his methods. It is impossible for him not to be an improvement.
Seems like a weird criteria to say "aim to beat all the NH teams"? France and Ireland are pretty much undisputed as the two best sides in the world right now, so that feels like saying that we should aim to be good enough to beat everyone? Feels more like a goal from the 2010s, when the 6N were a distinct drop down from the 3N in quality so aiming to beat them would be a good solid target.

I will note, for the people tearing their hair around box-kicking, Borthwick's (limited) history as head coach so far shows he tends to adapt to what he's got available. When Leicester are missing 10 players to internationals, it's kick the leather off it and play conservative. When we've got a decent team out, it's been long passes to Nadolo in our own half to make sides regret dropping back to cover the 50:22.

Not saying that he'll have England playing like Barbarians, but he will have a very different toolbox as England coach to what he was working with from a workmanlike Leicester squad.

Puja

He's a very tactical coach who invests a lot of time in improving players. He won't come into games with a set game plan but he's also fairly pragmatic. We aren't going to play like Quins.

I do enjoy the games where the opposition assume Borthwick will play a certain way and he brings out a twist to the tactics. I think it was Gloucester away last year that was particularly notable for those tactics Puja mentions of seeing the wingers drop deep so moving the ball wide and fast in the 22 to exploit the space. He does like a general at 10 and a sprinkling of experience through the side which may not work out well for those that think Youngs should be done and Smith a given at 10.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:59 pm**

Not long for new coach to get us ready for France but might well be opportunity to revitalise things!

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:10 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:45 pm
fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:40 pm There are no certainties with Borthwick. He might take to it like a duck to water or he might fall flat on his face. He has experience but being #1 at this level is a demanding task. You'd expect him to take a bit of time to adjust and to get used to a different environment and personnel.
He's got the 6N's and then will have the players for quite a long camp with some pre WC games. So he's got a nice run up to the WC itself. We have a very favourable draw and its not hard to see us making a SF at least.
I guess it depends just who he can bring in to the coaching team and what they might contribute.
Have to say its not long at all- he would do well to a- as we've said, get the best backroom staff, b- get a mentor with intl head coach experience (someone like Jones ). Its a fast turnaround situation- funnily enough, exactly what Jones is good at

Wonder if Wayne Smith could be tempted to offer some insights over the next few months?

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:13 pm**

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:10 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:45 pm
fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:40 pm There are no certainties with Borthwick. He might take to it like a duck to water or he might fall flat on his face. He has experience but being #1 at this level is a demanding task. You'd expect him to take a bit of time to adjust and to get used to a different environment and personnel.
He's got the 6N's and then will have the players for quite a long camp with some pre WC games. So he's got a nice run up to the WC itself. We have a very favourable draw and its not hard to see us making a SF at least.
I guess it depends just who he can bring in to the coaching team and what they might contribute.
Have to say its not long at all- he would do well to a- as we've said, get the best backroom staff, b- get a mentor with intl head coach experience (someone like Jones ). Its a fast turnaround situation- funnily enough, exactly what Jones is good at
Wonder if Wayne Smith could be tempted to offer some insights over the next few months?

SCW will be doing it for nothing if all else fails

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:23 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:13 pm
fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:10 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:45 pm

Have to say its not long at all- he would do well to a- as we've said, get the best backroom staff, b- get a mentor with intl head coach experience (someone like Jones ). Its a fast turnaround situation- funnily enough, exactly what Jones is good at
Wonder if Wayne Smith could be tempted to offer some insights over the next few months?
SCW will be doing it for nothing if all else fails

I'll admit, the RFU rehiring Woodward was a genuine concern of mine when Jones went.

Puja

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:25 pm**

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:23 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:13 pm
fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:10 pm

Wonder if Wayne Smith could be tempted to offer some insights over the next few months?
SCW will be doing it for nothing if all else fails
I'll admit, the RFU rehiring Woodward was a genuine concern of mine when Jones went.

Puja

Its a shame he lost the plot the day after the RWC 2003, because he was brilliant for a couple of years.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:41 pm**

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:49 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:32 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:20 pm

Shit, on the naughty step again! I promise to not whinge about how we win until after the RWC.

I can't believe any professional player, coach or team would NOT plan to win every game. Surely, nobody plans to lose? Getting more specific, England should look to beat every team they encounter, not try to minimise the extent of defeat or accept tame draws. If the opposition is too good for us, fair enough.

Borthwick, or whoever, must aim to beat all the NH teams and be disappointed not to win a GS. That does not mean they will. France and/or Ireland might be too good for us. But, let's see a team for each match march out 100% committed and give their all. Is that too much to ask?

Oh, and I'm not a fan of Borthwick but I am so happy to have him in charge, if it happens, whatever his methods. It is impossible for him not to be an improvement.
Seems like a weird criteria to say "aim to beat all the NH teams"? France and Ireland are pretty much undisputed as the two best sides in the world right now, so that feels like saying that we should aim to be good enough to beat everyone? Feels more like a goal from the 2010s, when the 6N were a distinct drop down from the 3N in quality so aiming to beat them would be a good solid target.

I will note, for the people tearing their hair around box-kicking, Borthwick's (limited) history as head coach so far shows he tends to adapt to what he's got available. When Leicester are missing 10 players to internationals, it's kick the leather off it and play conservative. When we've got a decent team out, it's been long passes to Nadolo in our own half to make sides regret dropping back to cover the 50:22.

Not saying that he'll have England playing like Barbarians, but he will have a very different toolbox as England coach to what he was working with from a workmanlike Leicester squad.

Puja
He's a very tactical coach who invests a lot of time in improving players. He won't come into games with a set game plan but he's also fairly pragmatic. We aren't going to play like Quins.

I do enjoy the games where the opposition assume Borthwick will play a certain way and he brings out a twist to the tactics. I think it was Gloucester away last year that was particularly notable for those tactics Puja mentions of seeing the wingers drop deep so moving the ball wide and fast in the 22 to exploit the space. He does like a general at 10 and a sprinkling of experience through the side which may not work out well for those that think Youngs should be done and Smith a given at 10.

Can’t talk for the general public, but I think most of us on here would be very happy with ford at 10

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:02 pm**

I seem to remember reading that Ford is due to make his long awaited début against Tigers on December 30th. I wonder if Borthers will still be with Tigers or at the ground wearing another hat?

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:21 pm**

Speaking of returning against former teams, Jones is being tipped to take on the Barbarians for the May game against England. Should get a few tickets sold!

Puja

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:20 pm**

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:33 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence

Bloody hell!!!! How ridiculous…….. no 2try Guy.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:21 pm**

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:36 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:33 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
Wow. That is an utterly worthless use of a journalist's time.

Puja

Was thinking the same! It’s such crap isn’t it?

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:51 pm**

https://archive.ph/WXQXi

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:52 pm**

What a fucking shambles.

RugbyRebels

Jones gone (Now 100% confirmed)

Re: Jones gone (Now 100% confirmed)

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