RugbyRebels

twitchy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:02 pm England XV 15. Freddie Steward; 14. Max Malins 13. Henry Slade 12. Ollie Lawrence 11. Ollie Hassell-Collins; 10. Owen Farrell (Captain) 9. Jack van Poortvliet; 1. Ellis Genge 2. Jamie George 3. Kyle Sinckler 4. Maro Itoje 5. Ollie Chessum 6. Lewis Ludlam 7. Jack Willis 8. Alex Dombrandt.

Replacements 16. Jack Walker 17. Mako Vunipola 18. Dan Cole 19. Nick Isiekwe 20. Ben Earl 21. Alex Mitchell 22. Marcus Smith 23. Henry Arundell.

Back row nicely balanced (as to be fair it was with B Curry)- would have benched Farrell and Itoje though

jngf wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:49 pm

twitchy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:02 pm England XV 15. Freddie Steward; 14. Max Malins 13. Henry Slade 12. Ollie Lawrence 11. Ollie Hassell-Collins; 10. Owen Farrell (Captain) 9. Jack van Poortvliet; 1. Ellis Genge 2. Jamie George 3. Kyle Sinckler 4. Maro Itoje 5. Ollie Chessum 6. Lewis Ludlam 7. Jack Willis 8. Alex Dombrandt.

Replacements 16. Jack Walker 17. Mako Vunipola 18. Dan Cole 19. Nick Isiekwe 20. Ben Earl 21. Alex Mitchell 22. Marcus Smith 23. Henry Arundell.

Back row nicely balanced (as to be fair it was with B Curry)- would have benched Farrell and Itoje though

Why would you have benched Itoje and who for?

The centre pairing of Lawrence and Slade could work well - a hard runner and a smart footballer. But is Farrell the 10 to get the best out of them? He's not much of a running threat.
Malins and OHC are not England's best pair of wings (but they are not that bad); or Dombrandt/Earls/Willis the best backrow combination.
Still - quite an interesting team, and probably looking at a good home win over Italy.They could do well if everything clicks on the day, and if Faz does not wind up at 12.
Hoping to see Arundell get a good run off the bench, and not just the last 5 minutes.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:52 pm The centre pairing of Lawrence and Slade could work well - a hard runner and a smart footballer. But is Farrell the 10 to get the best out of them? He's not much of a running threat.
Malins and OHC are not England's best pair of wings (but they are not that bad); or Dombrandt/Earls/Willis the best backrow combination.
Still - quite an interesting team, and probably looking at a good home win over Italy.They could do well if everything clicks on the day, and if Faz does not wind up at 12.
Hoping to see Arundell get a good run off the bench, and not just the last 5 minutes.

The only issue with Lawrence and Slade is that neither have played 12 much, but theoretically it works; the former has hardly ever played there tho. The back row is Ludlam/Willis/Dombrandt....and no idea until we see it in action. Agreed on the wings- not sure either are top notch, but again, lets see again.
Faz....pfft. Its comedic.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:52 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:49 pm

twitchy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:02 pm England XV 15. Freddie Steward; 14. Max Malins 13. Henry Slade 12. Ollie Lawrence 11. Ollie Hassell-Collins; 10. Owen Farrell (Captain) 9. Jack van Poortvliet; 1. Ellis Genge 2. Jamie George 3. Kyle Sinckler 4. Maro Itoje 5. Ollie Chessum 6. Lewis Ludlam 7. Jack Willis 8. Alex Dombrandt.

Replacements 16. Jack Walker 17. Mako Vunipola 18. Dan Cole 19. Nick Isiekwe 20. Ben Earl 21. Alex Mitchell 22. Marcus Smith 23. Henry Arundell.

Back row nicely balanced (as to be fair it was with B Curry)- would have benched Farrell and Itoje though

Why would you have benched Itoje and who for?

Because he appears to have significantly dipped in form and needs to get his hunger back - Would have Ribbans and Chessum as starting locks

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:41 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:21 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:11 pm
Probably not but Lawrence has suddenly become a very good player even when playing out of position. Farrell not moving to 12 can be avoided whilst having a flyhalf on the bench.

I hope you are right but I'd guess P/D will be.

how do ya like them apples Mells. ..........

They’re rotten

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:58 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:28 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:21 pm

I hope you are right but I'd guess P/D will be. IF Farrell is always going to play 80 leave him at 10 and cover the centres from the bench is all I'm suggesting.

The sensible thing is to not have Farrell (or anyone) as above being replaced. You’re treating the symptom and not the cause. Given it’s a new regime, we have no evidence that he is now above being replaced.

This has been a long running issue. Farrell as captain makes it less likely he'll come off even if he's not playing well.
Would be interesting to see just how many times he's been subbed during his England career. I bet it can't be more than half a dozen.

George Ford leading the comeback after Farrell shat the bed vs Scotland comes to mind…

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:03 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:53 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:29 pm

The only downside will be how early in the game replacements see Farrell shift back out one

Have this coaching crew got the collective bottle to NOT do that if Slade and Lawrence are both playing well? Why not let them do the 80 and make a decision to let Farrell stay on OR take him off for Smith? SB & Co are starting from scratch so there is nothing to stop them making decisions on what they see. In fact, the more I think about it the more I believe that the best interest of the team would be served by NOT having Smith on the bench. It would make a statement if Marchant was there instead. In the unlikely event that Farrell could not do the 80 Malins or Slade could do the FH job.

I would be exceedingly nervous about either Slade or Malins playing 10 if Farrell went down injured or got red carded in the first minute.

You are right though that Smith should be coming on as a direct sub for Farrell. Whether it'll happen? Eh.

Puja

Of of course it won’t … Farrell will play the full 80 unless he goes down injured.

There is almost no point in picking an exciting bench if we’re going to put Farrell the human handbrake in the middle of it.

Essentially, Farrell gets to play with centres. Smith gets to play with someone who wants to play 10 from 12. Dumb.

jngf wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:06 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:52 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:49 pm

Back row nicely balanced (as to be fair it was with B Curry)- would have benched Farrell and Itoje though

Why would you have benched Itoje and who for?

Because he appears to have significantly dipped in form and needs to get his hunger back - Would have Ribbans and Chessum as starting locks

What in his form has dipped, and you are ok with playing a tight head lock behind the loose head?

I really wouldn't think that's much of a concern - both play at club level with other TH & LH locks. When you have 3 in a matchday 23 there isn't really any way around it. As long as there's enough grunt in the scrum/maul and lineout smarts I can't see why it would be a problem. Two loosies would surely be more of a concern?

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:23 pm I really wouldn't think that's much of a concern - both play at club level with other TH & LH locks. When you have 3 in a matchday 23 there isn't really any way around it. As long as there's enough grunt in the scrum/maul and lineout smarts I can't see why it would be a problem. Two loosies would surely be more of a concern?

maybe not as big of a concern, but still a (imo needless) concern for starting one lock out of normal position when both are novice internationals with newish team mates in an inconsistent scrum; perhaps a more compelling point would be replacing what Itoje does (you missed his enormous loose 'grunt') when you bring in a quite different player, who definitely cant do 80.

Would you bench Itoje and bring Ribbans in?

I think lock is far from topping the list as an ‘issue’. However do think the fact that we are discussing it would suggest that he is droppable. That said I don’t believe he is coasting under the veil of his own ego, but just as the team performance falls short his contribution becomes more under the spotlight

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:18 pm I think lock is far from topping the list as an ‘issue’. However do think the fact that we are discussing it would suggest that he is droppable. That said I don’t believe he is coasting under the veil of his own ego, but just as the team performance falls short his contribution becomes more under the spotlight

Think he is part of the solution, not the problem. Bit baffled by said discussion, given the objective evidence.

Farrell has planted a rumour as deflection.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:34 pm Farrell has planted a rumour as deflection.

He'd undermine one of the few players capable of cleaning up his snail trail?

Danno wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:48 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:34 pm Farrell has planted a rumour as deflection.

He'd undermine one of the few players capable of cleaning up his snail trail?

true, too sophisticated a tactic as well

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:57 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:23 pm I really wouldn't think that's much of a concern - both play at club level with other TH & LH locks. When you have 3 in a matchday 23 there isn't really any way around it. As long as there's enough grunt in the scrum/maul and lineout smarts I can't see why it would be a problem. Two loosies would surely be more of a concern?

maybe not as big of a concern, but still a (imo needless) concern for starting one lock out of normal position when both are novice internationals with newish team mates in an inconsistent scrum; perhaps a more compelling point would be replacing what Itoje does (you missed his enormous loose 'grunt') when you bring in a quite different player, who definitely cant do 80.

Would you bench Itoje and bring Ribbans in?

No just arguing for the sake of it, to be honest. I’d have considered it if we wanted to give Itoje a break but wouldn’t ‘drop’ him.

It was more just the question of how you pick lock combos really. Given we’ve got Chessum who will regularly pack down on the left when paired with Wells or Green, as I understood it. Who leads the lineout would be more of a concern, but any group of 3 locks have to have some flexibility to do both.

Where does Isiekwe fit in, in that regard? Is he still playing a lot of 6? Tizard had the Saracens 5 shirt sewn up I thought. May as well have looked at him if Ribbans isn’t cutting it.

God, I’m still bitter about him leaving Quins for those bastards.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:49 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:57 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:23 pm I really wouldn't think that's much of a concern - both play at club level with other TH & LH locks. When you have 3 in a matchday 23 there isn't really any way around it. As long as there's enough grunt in the scrum/maul and lineout smarts I can't see why it would be a problem. Two loosies would surely be more of a concern?

maybe not as big of a concern, but still a (imo needless) concern for starting one lock out of normal position when both are novice internationals with newish team mates in an inconsistent scrum; perhaps a more compelling point would be replacing what Itoje does (you missed his enormous loose 'grunt') when you bring in a quite different player, who definitely cant do 80.

Would you bench Itoje and bring Ribbans in?

No just arguing for the sake of it, to be honest. I’d have considered it if we wanted to give Itoje a break but wouldn’t ‘drop’ him.

It was more just the question of how you pick lock combos really.

Fair dinkum; you are right, how they combine and their roles is important; what their positional strengths, preferences and experiences are, and what you want them to do. Itoje brings a lot more than the standard positional 'givens' though- I remember Puja commenting on him looking shagged out, and when you look at what he did in the game, not surprising--- so if resting him, then there this a lot to replace.

Ah, it's all subjective. 2 or 3 years ago I'd have had Itoje in a World XV. Now, I doubt he'd start for the Lions. That he is still our best lock probably confirm's Banquo's point that it's more a team-orientated issue. However, his form for country and club, if considered below par by SB, could see him rested for long-term gain I'd guess. I hope not - simply because I hope the England coaching crew can reinvigorate him in terms of his own ambitions and his role in the team.

Just read an article on Arundell and supposedly he’s rehabbed so well that he’s beaten all his old speed and power benchmarks…

If your goal kicker drops from 86% success to 79% do you replace hon with a player with 76% success rate. Bloody awful comparison I know but not sure dropping Itoje has much merit, especially at this stage in SB’s tenure

Just read the same article Mellsblue, which was fairly interesting.

I didn't read that as saying he'd beaten speed benchmarks though.

Arundell added a couple of kilograms, and is now hovering around 99kg (15st 8lb), but likes it.

“I feel powerful,” he says. “I’m heavier, and can feel that in carries. “It’ll take time to get back to regularly being able to repeat my speed, but I’m not going into the game worried. I feel good, and fresh.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/henr ... -ncxgnt79m

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:36 am Just read the same article Mellsblue, which was fairly interesting.

I didn't read that as saying he'd beaten speed benchmarks though.

Arundell added a couple of kilograms, and is now hovering around 99kg (15st 8lb), but likes it.

“I feel powerful,” he says. “I’m heavier, and can feel that in carries. “It’ll take time to get back to regularly being able to repeat my speed, but I’m not going into the game worried. I feel good, and fresh.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/henr ... -ncxgnt79m

‘The club had all of Arundell’s data — such as his maximum speed of 10.6m/s (23.7mph), and strength scores from the gym — as markers to hit. They measured the force he exerted with his legs via two rectangular “force-plates” fixed to the ground. Arundell would perform various jumps and in his first session broke his personal-best score.’

‘Arundell wore an Apple Watch, which linked via Bluetooth to the GPS monitor in the back of his shirt, and measured the speed he was running over 30-40 metres. It was supposed to measure how close he was to his maximum velocity, but he saw it as a challenge to beat his scores. “He did become slightly obsessed with that,” Timpson says, with a laugh.’

Admittedly it’s a projection by me, other than force pb, but I read it as though he beat his benchmarks.

I also admit that I shouldn’t have put ‘all’ in my original post. Didn’t do it consciously.

Bookies giving us a 19 point handicap tomorrow. Looks like free money at this point.

Time travel 7 years ago. This script needs changing.
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/viewtopic.php ... 2fd0b0b9df

the sad thing is nearly half of them are still there.
I notice a young pup by the name of Itoje might get his first cap and people are moaning about Faz.

This match was the perfect opportunity to play Smith with centres who play there regularly, and "rest" Farrell. He will, however, surely come on with 20 minutes to go to replace ............... a centre, and we'll be back where we started.