England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope

[Spiffy]

..on the park. Lovely guy off it, strangely, and sort of sadly.

I mean Farrell and Sexton seem to be perfectly nice guys off the field too, but I guess that on-field persona is inseparable from the kinds of players they are.

Biggar is genuinely nice and generous with his time. dunno re f and s, tho never really noticed sextons on field persona, certainly compared to the other 2.

Sexton is ultra competitive and can certainly be mouthy, snarly and all-round nasty on the field. Ireland fans know this and have tolerated it mostly because he's such a brilliant FH - far ahead of either Farrell or Biggar. At least he's not a cheap shot merchant (nor is Biggar), though he is a regular target of dirty play from opponents attempting to injure him off the pitch.

[Puja]

Biggar is drastically underrated by the Welsh as a player as well. He's such a good player, especially with the control that he has in his kicks, and does so many things so well, but it feels like the Welsh fans are always looking for their next mercurial genius and getting depressed at having this high quality fly-half available to them.

Puja

[Banquo]

I mean Farrell and Sexton seem to be perfectly nice guys off the field too, but I guess that on-field persona is inseparable from the kinds of players they are.

Biggar is genuinely nice and generous with his time. dunno re f and s, tho never really noticed sextons on field persona, certainly compared to the other 2.

Sexton is ultra competitive and can certainly be mouthy, snarly and all-round nasty on the field. Ireland fans know this and have tolerated it mostly because he's such a brilliant FH - far ahead of either Farrell or Biggar. At least he's not a cheap shot merchant (nor is Biggar), though he is a regular target of dirty play from opponents attempting to injure him off the pitch.

I suppose next to POM-who you'd always want on your side- anyone looks a decent guy . TBH the irish team is packed with competitive and snarly- and high competence.

[Banquo]

Biggar is drastically underrated by the Welsh as a player as well. He's such a good player, especially with the control that he has in his kicks, and does so many things so well, but it feels like the Welsh fans are always looking for their next mercurial genius and getting depressed at having this high quality fly-half available to them.

Puja

always rated him. always plays well and knows his own game.

[Sandydragon]

Biggar is drastically underrated by the Welsh as a player as well. He's such a good player, especially with the control that he has in his kicks, and does so many things so well, but it feels like the Welsh fans are always looking for their next mercurial genius and getting depressed at having this high quality fly-half available to them.

Puja

But he’s not Barry John.

Which ignores the fact that even the great welsh teams of the 70s could play boring pragmatic rugby when necessary.

[Spiffy]

Biggar is drastically underrated by the Welsh as a player as well. He's such a good player, especially with the control that he has in his kicks, and does so many things so well, but it feels like the Welsh fans are always looking for their next mercurial genius and getting depressed at having this high quality fly-half available to them.

Puja

always rated him. always plays well and knows his own game.

Not sure that Wales got the best out of Biggar over the years. I feel he was constrained playing Gatball, but showed at Saints that he is capable of a more comprehensive and rounded game. Rather like Neil Jenkins in his day - conservative (but effective) for Wales but more of a laid-back play maker/runner at club level.

[p/d]

[. TBH the irish team is packed with competitive and snarly- and high competence.

Absolutely!!! We are so lacking in that, more content to run around congratulating each other on winning a scrum than bashing the oppo off the park

[Mellsblue]

[. TBH the irish team is packed with competitive and snarly- and high competence.

Absolutely!!! We are so lacking in that, more content to run around congratulating each other on winning a scrum than bashing the oppo off the park

And we’re all a bunch of sausages…

[Oakboy]

I've always thought there was something neat and compact about Biggar's style. The football expression about pace, 'the first yard is in your head', seems to apply. Catching the ball and accelerating with it, perhaps just over 3 or 4 yards, looks natural to him (as it does with Ford). It means that short carries can make passes more effective occasionally within a more conservative normal game. The contrast with Farrell's less graceful movement is marked as we saw on Saturday.

[Oakboy]

[. TBH the irish team is packed with competitive and snarly- and high competence.

Absolutely!!! We are so lacking in that, more content to run around congratulating each other on winning a scrum than bashing the oppo off the park

Agreed but it leaves me failing to understand why so few like Hill. His attitude and pure aggression often got him over the line for Exeter. He's no Martin Johnson but he fronts up.

[p/d]

[. TBH the irish team is packed with competitive and snarly- and high competence.

Absolutely!!! We are so lacking in that, more content to run around congratulating each other on winning a scrum than bashing the oppo off the park

And we’re all a bunch of sausages…

[Mellsblue]

[. TBH the irish team is packed with competitive and snarly- and high competence.

Absolutely!!! We are so lacking in that, more content to run around congratulating each other on winning a scrum than bashing the oppo off the park

Agreed but it leaves me failing to understand why so few like Hill. His attitude and pure aggression often got him over the line for Exeter. He's no Martin Johnson but he fronts up.

Because he’s a penalty machine and mostly ineffective, imo, ie he doesn’t meet the competent criterion.

[Mellsblue]

A silver lining: England are good at killing the clock



and their fans’ interest in test rugby.

[Banquo]

I've always thought there was something neat and compact about Biggar's style. The football expression about pace, 'the first yard is in your head', seems to apply. Catching the ball and accelerating with it, perhaps just over 3 or 4 yards, looks natural to him (as it does with Ford). It means that short carries can make passes more effective occasionally within a more conservative normal game. The contrast with Farrell's less graceful movement is marked as we saw on Saturday.

Probably the best self kick and chase in world rugby.

[Banquo]

[. TBH the irish team is packed with competitive and snarly- and high competence.

Absolutely!!! We are so lacking in that, more content to run around congratulating each other on winning a scrum than bashing the oppo off the park

Agreed but it leaves me failing to understand why so few like Hill. His attitude and pure aggression often got him over the line for Exeter. He's no Martin Johnson but he fronts up.

I like Hill, bar the stoopid penalties....not alone there tbh...we do stoopid sausages very well. Suspect its the mullet that did for him.

[Banquo]

Absolutely!!! We are so lacking in that, more content to run around congratulating each other on winning a scrum than bashing the oppo off the park

Agreed but it leaves me failing to understand why so few like Hill. His attitude and pure aggression often got him over the line for Exeter. He's no Martin Johnson but he fronts up.

Because he’s a penalty machine and mostly ineffective, imo, ie he doesn’t meet the competent criterion.

Half of that imo- I think he's a good lineout operator, good scrummager, and can carry very well with a bit of surprising skill; offset by a lot of stupidity at the breakdown tho. As above, as a team we are a penalty machine too often.

[Mellsblue]

Agreed but it leaves me failing to understand why so few like Hill. His attitude and pure aggression often got him over the line for Exeter. He's no Martin Johnson but he fronts up.

Because he’s a penalty machine and mostly ineffective, imo, ie he doesn’t meet the competent criterion.

Half of that imo- I think he's a good lineout operator, good scrummager, and can carry very well with a bit of surprising skill; offset by a lot of stupidity at the breakdown tho. As above, as a team we are a penalty machine too often.

Maybe I’m being harsh as I don’t understand Dors’ strength of feeling over his omission. To me he’s an ok test player but nothing more. Perhaps it’s because he’s followed Launch, Lawes and Kruis who were all good test locks or because Chessum came in and was almost immediately good/better or because I see more of a ceiling in Martin and more of a consistent impact in Ribbans (all imo, obvs) whilst Hill is just a bit ok with the ability to have a brain fart at any given moment.

[Banquo]

Because he’s a penalty machine and mostly ineffective, imo, ie he doesn’t meet the competent criterion.

Half of that imo- I think he's a good lineout operator, good scrummager, and can carry very well with a bit of surprising skill; offset by a lot of stupidity at the breakdown tho. As above, as a team we are a penalty machine too often.

Maybe I’m being harsh as I don’t understand Dors’ strength of feeling over his omission. To me he’s an ok test player but nothing more. Perhaps it’s because he’s followed Launch, Lawes and Kruis who were all good test locks or because Chessum came in and was almost immediately good/better or because I see more of a ceiling in Martin and more of a consistent impact in Ribbans (all imo, obvs) whilst Hill is just a bit ok with the ability to have a brain fart at any given moment.

He's an OK test player,and I'm not bothered by his omission. But I think he actually has a better player in him than he often displays as it were; he could be a Ribbans but fitter, say.

[fivepointer]

Hill's a little unlucky. He wouldnt weaken us and i'd currently rate him a a better lock than Martin, who isnt as good in the air but does have the ability to play 6..

[Puja]

Was reading a Charlie Morgan article the other day and he was way more positive about Martin's game this weekend than I was (with gifed examples, of course). I still don't think he's ready for primetime, but it does make me wonder what else I missed from him.

Not enough to make me want to subject myself to a minute-by-minute, mind, but still curious.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Was reading a Charlie Morgan article the other day and he was way more positive about Martin's game this weekend than I was (with gifed examples, of course). I still don't think he's ready for primetime, but it does make me wonder what else I missed from him.

Not enough to make me want to subject myself to a minute-by-minute, mind, but still curious.

Puja

I actually think that this is a game where the minute-by-minute, whilst not fun, would be very enlightening.

I am NOT volunteering for that shit

[p/d]

Hill's a little unlucky. He wouldnt weaken us and i'd currently rate him a a better lock than Martin, who isnt as good in the air but does have the ability to play 6..

Sorry 5P, but on that basis he should be ahead of Martin (how many lock-cum-back row players do we need).

[FKAS]

Was reading a Charlie Morgan article the other day and he was way more positive about Martin's game this weekend than I was (with gifed examples, of course). I still don't think he's ready for primetime, but it does make me wonder what else I missed from him.

Not enough to make me want to subject myself to a minute-by-minute, mind, but still curious.

Puja

I watched the game again yesterday whilst doing dinner. Martin was pretty low key but the things he was doing were the things you'd want him to be doing. If you look at the Plumtree knock on early doors. Two tackles in two phases Martin makes beyond the gain line, kills momentum and then I think it's Earl disrupts a bit and the pass is fumbled. The other bit that caught my eye was on the goal line before the penalty try. Big hit to drive the Welsh ball carrier and escort back into the previous ruck, again killing speed of pass, takes a phase to get from under the bodies but then bounces back up into position to stop Reffell from scrabbling through the gap and scoring.

It's not the big impact stuff we've been wanting to see from him but it's the hard work you want your lock doing. I kinda think he's on his way to getting up to speed at this level but isn't quite there yet. He's not making errors at least.

[Oakboy]

Because he’s a penalty machine and mostly ineffective, imo, ie he doesn’t meet the competent criterion.

Half of that imo- I think he's a good lineout operator, good scrummager, and can carry very well with a bit of surprising skill; offset by a lot of stupidity at the breakdown tho. As above, as a team we are a penalty machine too often.

Maybe I’m being harsh as I don’t understand Dors’ strength of feeling over his omission. To me he’s an ok test player but nothing more. Perhaps it’s because he’s followed Launch, Lawes and Kruis who were all good test locks or because Chessum came in and was almost immediately good/better or because I see more of a ceiling in Martin and more of a consistent impact in Ribbans (all imo, obvs) whilst Hill is just a bit ok with the ability to have a brain fart at any given moment.

I was reacting to p/d's yearning for 'attitude' in a lock (or the front five generally). On the back of Jones wasting countless caps on Ewels, Hill came along and looked more the part, IMO. I still think he's potentially Itoje's best partner, though I rate Chessum (both Chessums, come to that). Competent coaching should find it easier to sort out disciplinary errors in a player with skill and physical impact than it is to add 'dog' to someone who hasn't got it. It seems weird to me how players that Baxter got the best from don't gel, first with Jones, and now with SB. Trying to lever Martin into the job just seems tougher than straightening out Hill. I'd have no issue with a fit Chessum starting and Hill on the bench. Both are better than Ribbans, IMO.

One other factor is getting the best out of Itoje. Is it coincidence that he has not been tip-top by his standards? I think he looks better with Hill than any of the others and would argue that the short-term gain available in the 2nd row as a unit from that pairing is being wasted. That is not to argue that Hill is a better individual player than Chessum. In fact, if a new incoming Head Coach were to look at the squad as a whole and conclude that getting the very best from Itoje was his number one priority, I'd applaud. I certainly don't want him trying to carry a succession of new partners.

Even if I am totally off the mark about Hill, it is surely reasonable to look at the pack's performance as a whole, together with the second row's contribution within it, and ask whether SB has cracked it. I'd say the answer is 'no'. He has decided to dump Hill. Maybe that decision is a factor.

[FKAS]

The problem is that Hill has failed to bring a lot of those strengths you mention to international rugby. He went through a spell of being devastating 5m out for Chiefs but has never really threatened ball in hand for England. He's not a dominant tackler, his skill levels aren't high when you consider the other international locks. Itoje and Ribbans are a considerable distance ahead there Chessum not far behind them.

He is a good lineout jumper but Hill just looks a big lump at international level. The four options selected are more mobile and get through as much if not more work. Hill's pretty poor showing off the bench in the second half in Cardiff the other weekend put the nail in the coffin of his selection.