England vs Australia

[p/d]

So, as someone who missed this match...predictable.

Seems like Soggy Biscuit is not learning, which is a problem. If the players cannot keep up the intensity, then find players who can.

It's the weight of the shirt Stom, the weight of the shirt!!!

[Mellsblue]

So, as someone who missed this match...predictable.

Seems like Soggy Biscuit is not learning, which is a problem. If the players cannot keep up the intensity, then find players who can.

It's the weight of the shirt Stom, the weight of the shirt!!!

I would suggest a cotton and merino wool blend in that case.

[p/d]

So, as someone who missed this match...predictable.

Seems like Soggy Biscuit is not learning, which is a problem. If the players cannot keep up the intensity, then find players who can.

It's the weight of the shirt Stom, the weight of the shirt!!!

I would suggest a cotton and merino wool blend in that case.

The Fran & José.

I think they tried that before but found too much mud clung to it and the blend was totally overrated for what it cost

[Mikey Brown]

What did anyone make of the switch at centre? Were they actually doing anything different. Slade was still at 13 in defence?

[Puja]

What did anyone make of the switch at centre? Were they actually doing anything different. Slade was still at 13 in defence?

Bold of you to assume they were doing anything at all, let alone different.

Puja

[FKAS]

What did anyone make of the switch at centre? Were they actually doing anything different. Slade was still at 13 in defence?

Bold of you to assume they were doing anything at all, let alone different.

Puja

I presumed it was a misprint on the team sheet and no one wanted to as admit to it so they just went with it.

[Oakboy]

Experience counts for everything, remember. Just look at Oz's 13.

Assuming that a real cracking English prospect turned up in similar circumstances, what are the chances of him getting picked?

We have world-beating under-20 stars that don't get regular club starts, for example. Those that do have almost zero chance of getting in the EPS. Dombrandt on the bench ahead of Pollock is where we are at.

[FKAS]

Experience counts for everything, remember. Just look at Oz's 13.

Assuming that a real cracking English prospect turned up in similar circumstances, what are the chances of him getting picked?

We have world-beating under-20 stars that don't get regular club starts, for example. Those that do have almost zero chance of getting in the EPS. Dombrandt on the bench ahead of Pollock is where we are at.

Suaalii is two years older than Pollock. I'm in general approving of bringing through some fresh blood into the team but 19 year olds less so. I'd prefer to manage their workloads for a couple of years and then bring them through. I'd have liked to see him the squad as an apprentice though.

Some of the selections for the AIs really have been underwhelming. Cole and Davison both in their thirties and middling form. One or both could have been replaced by Heyes and/or AOF from the go. Given us some young tightheads for the future.

At least some apprentice picks for the squad would have been a nod to trying to bring things on.

[fivepointer]

Experience counts for everything, remember. Just look at Oz's 13.

Assuming that a real cracking English prospect turned up in similar circumstances, what are the chances of him getting picked?

We have world-beating under-20 stars that don't get regular club starts, for example. Those that do have almost zero chance of getting in the EPS. Dombrandt on the bench ahead of Pollock is where we are at.

Suaalii is two years older than Pollock. I'm in general approving of bringing through some fresh blood into the team but 19 year olds less so. I'd prefer to manage their workloads for a couple of years and then bring them through. I'd have liked to see him the squad as an apprentice though.

Some of the selections for the AIs really have been underwhelming. Cole and Davison both in their thirties and middling form. One or both could have been replaced by Heyes and/or AOF from the go. Given us some young tightheads for the future.

At least some apprentice picks for the squad would have been a nod to trying to bring things on.

Heyes exclusion is utterly inexplicable. Here's a player England have invested some time in who had started the season off very well. To be overlooked in favour of Cole and Davison is just terrible selecting.

Pollack is with the A team and that seems right to me.

Pre 6N SB needs to have a bit of a clear out. You cant just replace everyone all at once but some players are obviously over the hill, some getting very close to it or are simply not up to it.

[p/d]

Experience counts for everything, remember. Just look at Oz's 13.

Assuming that a real cracking English prospect turned up in similar circumstances, what are the chances of him getting picked?

We have world-beating under-20 stars that don't get regular club starts, for example. Those that do have almost zero chance of getting in the EPS. Dombrandt on the bench ahead of Pollock is where we are at.

I think there is an element of being handicapped by having a bigger pool to choose from. If memory serves Hooper was 20 when winning his first cap and captain by 23. We might not have even selected a similar player by then!

How old was Curry when he won his first cap. 19/20?

If Pollock and Pepper are deemed good enough then get them in

[Mr Mwenda]

O'Keefe should be getting hairdryers at the review, this is shocking

I'm always a bit sceptical about the 'ref clearly saw x' chat. It does look like it from the video but in fluid situation he might have thought Curry was moving or just not have seen it properly. He also blew up a few seconds later. It can take a sec to process things. Given he did then blow up, I think it is strange to conclude that he saw he was unconscious but didn't think it mattered.

It's not a good look but also really unfair on refs. It must be sensory overload for them all the time.

[FKAS]

Experience counts for everything, remember. Just look at Oz's 13.

Assuming that a real cracking English prospect turned up in similar circumstances, what are the chances of him getting picked?

We have world-beating under-20 stars that don't get regular club starts, for example. Those that do have almost zero chance of getting in the EPS. Dombrandt on the bench ahead of Pollock is where we are at.

I think there is an element of being handicapped by having a bigger pool to choose from. If memory serves Hooper was 20 when winning his first cap and captain by 23. We might not have even selected a similar player by then!

How old was Curry when he won his first cap. 19/20?

If Pollock and Pepper are deemed good enough then get them in

Where did Curry play his first England games? Vs the Baabaas and then part of a makeshift side playing against Argentina in a Lions year. Not Vs NZ and SA in the AIs at an expectant Twickers. Capping them at A level now and then taking them on next summer's tour (if their form is good enough) makes a lot of sense. Particularly for Pollock who's still 19.

[Mellsblue]

From The Times:

‘Borthwick and England were enormously frustrated that a package of law trials and refereeing directives for the Autumn Nations Series were announced only two weeks before the first game. Included among them is a crackdown from referees on escorts who used to protect the catcher of a high ball and make it easier to launch a counterattack.

“Over the last few years, the kick counter has been viewed as another set piece, arguably the most fruitful possession source as you had a genuine opportunity to guarantee an unprepared and unstructured defence,” one coach explained.

“You would have a highly probable possession source with 12 attackers versus six or seven defenders. Time and investment was allocated as such throughout training.”

But with referees demanding clear access for those chasing the kick, catchers are now more likely to be nailed when they land or at least face a disruptive contest for possession, encouraging opposing scrum halves to launch shallower contestable kicks. England did eventually score their second try on Saturday from a kick reception but one of their main attacking launchpads has been muted, hence George Furbank struggling to bring his creativity to bear from full back.’

[Oakboy]

From The Times:

‘Borthwick and England were enormously frustrated that a package of law trials and refereeing directives for the Autumn Nations Series were announced only two weeks before the first game. Included among them is a crackdown from referees on escorts who used to protect the catcher of a high ball and make it easier to launch a counterattack.

“Over the last few years, the kick counter has been viewed as another set piece, arguably the most fruitful possession source as you had a genuine opportunity to guarantee an unprepared and unstructured defence,” one coach explained.

“You would have a highly probable possession source with 12 attackers versus six or seven defenders. Time and investment was allocated as such throughout training.”

But with referees demanding clear access for those chasing the kick, catchers are now more likely to be nailed when they land or at least face a disruptive contest for possession, encouraging opposing scrum halves to launch shallower contestable kicks. England did eventually score their second try on Saturday from a kick reception but one of their main attacking launchpads has been muted, hence George Furbank struggling to bring his creativity to bear from full back.’

Is that the best excuse he could come up with?

[p/d]

Well that’s Furbank off the hook…… now for the rest

[Mellsblue]

Well that’s Furbank off the hook…… now for the rest

I’m afraid some aren’t so lucky. Barnsey isn’t happy:
‘After losing a fifth straight match against a leading rugby nation, the England manager said his team failed to follow the preconceived plan: “When you drift away from the game plan, it generally leads to more errors.”
The manager is deluding himself.
He is blaming the players’ failure to stay on message as the reason for defeat. An equally strong case for admonition can be made for pointing the finger at those who blindly stick to the pre match strategy.’

[jngf]

I felt it at home. When curry went off, you could almost see them wilt.

They started to hurt us with one out carries. Dombrandt for Curry is far from a like for like swap.

I would say this is another instance adding to the body of proof that Ben Earl is not an international quality flanker. He's just not good enough in that role to step in for the likes of Curry or Underhill - he's an 8 or nothing.

Puja

If you pick Earl at flanker then you ask him to play to his strengths namely using his additional pace to link up with the backs. If one views the role of flanker as primarily more defence oriented than attack then certainly imo Underhill is ideal for that though I think the ceiling has been raised a further notch from playing the ‘Kamikazee kids’ together these days ( which to be fair was itself a vast step up from the days of perming Wood, Robshaw and the BRAND into two 6.5 berths )

[Mikey Brown]

Is that how you've perceived England to be using the 7 and 8 recently?

[Oakboy]

They started to hurt us with one out carries. Dombrandt for Curry is far from a like for like swap.

I would say this is another instance adding to the body of proof that Ben Earl is not an international quality flanker. He's just not good enough in that role to step in for the likes of Curry or Underhill - he's an 8 or nothing.

Puja

If you pick Earl at flanker then you ask him to play to his strengths namely using his additional pace to link up with the backs. If one views the role of flanker as primarily more defence oriented than attack then certainly imo Underhill is ideal for that though I think the ceiling has been raised a further notch from playing the ‘Kamikazee kids’ together these days ( which to be fair was itself a vast step up from the days of perming Wood, Robshaw and the BRAND into two 6.5 berths )

Earl is now showing flaws as a No 8, as is Dombrandt. If Earl is not a viable option at 7, might neither have an international future? We spent years picking Billy V on reputation rather than current effectiveness. We refused to play Simmonds when he was the outstanding 8 at club level, then picked him when he was in a bad patch. Hughes under-performed etc.

If you dropped a coach on to the planet who had no pre-conceived perception of form/reputation, the back row candidates in the squad would not be the current ones (in most cases). Recalling Curry too early is a classic example of getting it wrong. The same mistake has presumably been acknowledged in Underhill's case if he was not even a bench option in a 6:2 set-up.

The back row situation needs a clear, open-mind in a fresh approach. Ball presentation/acquisition is a major issue.

[Epaminondas Pules]

From The Times:

‘Borthwick and England were enormously frustrated that a package of law trials and refereeing directives for the Autumn Nations Series were announced only two weeks before the first game. Included among them is a crackdown from referees on escorts who used to protect the catcher of a high ball and make it easier to launch a counterattack.

“Over the last few years, the kick counter has been viewed as another set piece, arguably the most fruitful possession source as you had a genuine opportunity to guarantee an unprepared and unstructured defence,” one coach explained.

“You would have a highly probable possession source with 12 attackers versus six or seven defenders. Time and investment was allocated as such throughout training.”

But with referees demanding clear access for those chasing the kick, catchers are now more likely to be nailed when they land or at least face a disruptive contest for possession, encouraging opposing scrum halves to launch shallower contestable kicks. England did eventually score their second try on Saturday from a kick reception but one of their main attacking launchpads has been muted, hence George Furbank struggling to bring his creativity to bear from full back.’

It's weird, cause it is almost like England had been practicing this a lot judging by the amount of times we nailed All back kick receivers in the first game.

And of course in just about every video England put out it shows them practicing taking high balls under pressure, with soapy balls, blah blah blah.

This kind of bollocks is just shite. Just admit we were a bit shit. Cause we were.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Well that’s Furbank off the hook…… now for the rest

I’m afraid some aren’t so lucky. Barnsey isn’t happy:
‘After losing a fifth straight match against a leading rugby nation, the England manager said his team failed to follow the preconceived plan: “When you drift away from the game plan, it generally leads to more errors.”
The manager is deluding himself.
He is blaming the players’ failure to stay on message as the reason for defeat. An equally strong case for admonition can be made for pointing the finger at those who blindly stick to the pre match strategy.’

Fuck me! The guy is an absolute tool! And for once I don't mean Barnes!

[p/d]

Well that’s Furbank off the hook…… now for the rest

I’m afraid some aren’t so lucky. Barnsey isn’t happy:
‘After losing a fifth straight match against a leading rugby nation, the England manager said his team failed to follow the preconceived plan: “When you drift away from the game plan, it generally leads to more errors.”
The manager is deluding himself.
He is blaming the players’ failure to stay on message as the reason for defeat. An equally strong case for admonition can be made for pointing the finger at those who blindly stick to the pre match strategy.’

Fuck me! The guy is an absolute tool! And for once I don't mean Barnes!

Indeed. Does Dombrandt play like Earl? No. Does Earl play like Curry? No. I would suggest it was sticking to the game plan that created the errors and gaping holes around the breakdown area.

[Cameo]

Experience counts for everything, remember. Just look at Oz's 13.

Assuming that a real cracking English prospect turned up in similar circumstances, what are the chances of him getting picked?

We have world-beating under-20 stars that don't get regular club starts, for example. Those that do have almost zero chance of getting in the EPS. Dombrandt on the bench ahead of Pollock is where we are at.

Suaalii is two years older than Pollock. I'm in general approving of bringing through some fresh blood into the team but 19 year olds less so. I'd prefer to manage their workloads for a couple of years and then bring them through. I'd have liked to see him the squad as an apprentice though.

Some of the selections for the AIs really have been underwhelming. Cole and Davison both in their thirties and middling form. One or both could have been replaced by Heyes and/or AOF from the go. Given us some young tightheads for the future.

At least some apprentice picks for the squad would have been a nod to trying to bring things on.

Heyes exclusion is utterly inexplicable. Here's a player England have invested some time in who had started the season off very well. To be overlooked in favour of Cole and Davison is just terrible selecting.

Pollack is with the A team and that seems right to me.

Pre 6N SB needs to have a bit of a clear out. You cant just replace everyone all at once but some players are obviously over the hill, some getting very close to it or are simply not up to it.

As a Scotland fan, the continued inclusion of Cole does make me smile. He's not bad. He even looked like he might get a turnover at one point on the weekend. But he's not in the least bit intimidating.

One last hurrah at a World Cup if you are worried the others' scrummaging isn't up to it is one thing. Keeping picking him now is a bit much though. Surely, even if they are a bit raw, you have someone ready to have a go as a bench option at least. When we kept picking WP Nel, we truly had no one who could hold up a scrum and even then I think we kept doing it too long.

[FKAS]

I’m afraid some aren’t so lucky. Barnsey isn’t happy:
‘After losing a fifth straight match against a leading rugby nation, the England manager said his team failed to follow the preconceived plan: “When you drift away from the game plan, it generally leads to more errors.”
The manager is deluding himself.
He is blaming the players’ failure to stay on message as the reason for defeat. An equally strong case for admonition can be made for pointing the finger at those who blindly stick to the pre match strategy.’

Fuck me! The guy is an absolute tool! And for once I don't mean Barnes!

Indeed. Does Dombrandt play like Earl? No. Does Earl play like Curry? No. I would suggest it was sticking to the game plan that created the errors and gaping holes around the breakdown area.

Unless he specifies what it was he wanted them to do instead of what they did it's a nothing comment.

[Puja]

As a Scotland fan, the continued inclusion of Cole does make me smile. He's not bad. He even looked like he might get a turnover at one point on the weekend. But he's not in the least bit intimidating.

One last hurrah at a World Cup if you are worried the others' scrummaging isn't up to it is one thing. Keeping picking him now is a bit much though. Surely, even if they are a bit raw, you have someone ready to have a go as a bench option at least. When we kept picking WP Nel, we truly had no one who could hold up a scrum and even then I think we kept doing it too long.

I get a bit of the logic. It is outright dangerous to put Opoku-Fordjour or Fasogbon in international rugby yet - not because they might not cope, but because they're too young and the last thing we want is to cripple them with injury - but they are coming (and Sela behind them), so the argument is why bother promoting Heyes who, previous to this season, has stalled and been unable to oust Cole for Leicester. Better to select the old man for another series rather than go for a younger downgrade who won't even be the long-term solution.

Of course, that logic has been ruined by Heyes kicking on this season and looking significantly better, but there was only 3 games of him playing before the EPS was named due to the stupid organisation of the season at present.

Puja