Team for Japan

[p/d]

the gap in the quality of carrying and jacklng in the early kick off compared to the ponderous tripe served up by those wearing purple velour was staggering.

[Spiffy]

Er Furbank and Slade were subbed

Wasn't Furbank subbed some time before Slade?

well a- you said Freeman, and b- slade was hooked....Smith went to second/third playmaker from 15, and Slade went not long after. (54 and 60 mins)

Woops. Yes - a slip of the pen. I did mean Furbank. I thought it was a little unfair to yank him since he was playing well. I suppose SB has decreed that Marcus Smith has to be on the pitch somewhere. A straight Smith for Smith swap at 10 would have been interesting with Marcus departing the field. Don't know how much longer SB will persevere with Slade.

[Banquo]

Wasn't Furbank subbed some time before Slade?

well a- you said Freeman, and b- slade was hooked....Smith went to second/third playmaker from 15, and Slade went not long after. (54 and 60 mins)

Woops. Yes - a slip of the pen. I did mean Furbank. I thought it was a little unfair to yank him since he was playing well. I suppose SB has decreed that Marcus Smith has to be on the pitch somewhere. A straight Smith for Smith swap at 10 would have been interesting with Marcus departing the field. Don't know how much longer SB will persevere with Slade.

agreed on yanking Furbank.

[Captainhaircut]

Defence is a mess- not helped at all by having almost zero jackal threat. Isn’t that jackal threat a key part of the saffa defence? Force people inside and then get over the ball?

Martin looks dreadful- is he fit? Both legs strapped..

Earl woeful- bounced off tackles, running around like headless chicken with the ball.

Slade just as bad- looks very slow and some very poor decisions at the line in attack.

Stuart the big plus of this autumn series. Scrummaged well and got around the pitch. Big bonus.

jackalling and dreadful wide defence are two distinct areas for um....urgent attention.
Not sure what Martin did wrong (aside from try fck up, fair) decent tackle count and a big hitter, couple of hard carries, won his lineouts, and doubtless was a big help at tighthead lock for your boy Stuart.

Defence, midfield, backrow and overall plot are just four of our issues.
And carrying. ...and...

Martin comment was based on the series as a whole. He’s missed loads of tackles and seems to be way down in terms of general physicality in the tackle and the carry. Sure he does impact the scrum of course.

I don’t think he was great today either- not terrible but again missed tackles and should really be massively asserting himself physically against the likes of Japan.

[Danno]

Defence is a mess- not helped at all by having almost zero jackal threat. Isn’t that jackal threat a key part of the saffa defence? Force people inside and then get over the ball?

Martin looks dreadful- is he fit? Both legs strapped..

Earl woeful- bounced off tackles, running around like headless chicken with the ball.

Slade just as bad- looks very slow and some very poor decisions at the line in attack.

Stuart the big plus of this autumn series. Scrummaged well and got around the pitch. Big bonus.

jackalling and dreadful wide defence are two distinct areas for um....urgent attention.
Not sure what Martin did wrong (aside from try fck up, fair) decent tackle count and a big hitter, couple of hard carries, won his lineouts, and doubtless was a big help at tighthead lock for your boy Stuart.

Defence, midfield, backrow and overall plot are just four of our issues.
And carrying. ...and...

Martin comment was based on the series as a whole. He’s missed loads of tackles and seems to be way down in terms of general physicality in the tackle and the carry. Sure he does impact the scrum of course.

I don’t think he was great today either- not terrible but again missed tackles and should really be massively asserting himself physically against the likes of Japan.

Agreed here as well. He's either knackered or (more likely) playing through an injury. He doesn't look right at all and it's definitely not second season syndrome.

[Stom]

So I didn’t get to watch the game, but caught a glimpse. Enough to see England concede a terrible try where Furbank once again took neither the inside nor outside man and allowed a clear run.

I understand he did some good in attack, but I’m starting to think we’d be better off with Smith at FB permanently.


Also, what was the point of that? Beat up Japan up front? Absolutely pointless.

[FKAS]

The RFU won't, but I'd be head-hunting for an actual experienced and competent international head coach now.
I would give SB an ultimatum that he needs to secure 1st or 2nd on the 6N to avoid triggering his 6 months notice.

I believe they have someone on the books who monitors and helps develop English coaches here and abroad. If he doesn't have a dossier of prospective options then what's the point in having him.

I'm not sure there's many experienced coaches available I'd actually want. I'd keep Borthwick and more likely force a change in coaching setup on him with O'Shea taking more oversight and helping select new assistants.

O'shea better left with elite pathways....what does 'more oversight' mean and then what Borthwick's job look like? It would look like a dead duck imo and put him in an impossible position. If he's not up to appointing coaches or preparing an intl team, let him learn somewhere else.

You'd use O'Shea as more of an unofficial mentor. Give some additional advice around assistant coaches make up. Borthwick is a good coach and you'd not have O'Shea there on match day or day to day training. Just don't leave the head coach in isolation again like Eddie was.

[Banquo]

I believe they have someone on the books who monitors and helps develop English coaches here and abroad. If he doesn't have a dossier of prospective options then what's the point in having him.

I'm not sure there's many experienced coaches available I'd actually want. I'd keep Borthwick and more likely force a change in coaching setup on him with O'Shea taking more oversight and helping select new assistants.

O'shea better left with elite pathways....what does 'more oversight' mean and then what Borthwick's job look like? It would look like a dead duck imo and put him in an impossible position. If he's not up to appointing coaches or preparing an intl team, let him learn somewhere else.

You'd use O'Shea as more of an unofficial mentor. Give some additional advice around assistant coaches make up. Borthwick is a good coach and you'd not have O'Shea there on match day or day to day training. Just don't leave the head coach in isolation again like Eddie was.

So O’Shea just chats to him every so often? Pretty sure he already does tbh.

[Banquo]

Defence is a mess- not helped at all by having almost zero jackal threat. Isn’t that jackal threat a key part of the saffa defence? Force people inside and then get over the ball?

Martin looks dreadful- is he fit? Both legs strapped..

Earl woeful- bounced off tackles, running around like headless chicken with the ball.

Slade just as bad- looks very slow and some very poor decisions at the line in attack.

Stuart the big plus of this autumn series. Scrummaged well and got around the pitch. Big bonus.

jackalling and dreadful wide defence are two distinct areas for um....urgent attention.
Not sure what Martin did wrong (aside from try fck up, fair) decent tackle count and a big hitter, couple of hard carries, won his lineouts, and doubtless was a big help at tighthead lock for your boy Stuart.

Defence, midfield, backrow and overall plot are just four of our issues.
And carrying. ...and...

Martin comment was based on the series as a whole. He’s missed loads of tackles and seems to be way down in terms of general physicality in the tackle and the carry. Sure he does impact the scrum of course.

I don’t think he was great today either- not terrible but again missed tackles and should really be massively asserting himself physically against the likes of Japan.

Not sure he’s the biggest of our problems tbh. I’d thought he’d gone ok, but maybe it’s all relative.

[Mikey Brown]

So I didn’t get to watch the game, but caught a glimpse. Enough to see England concede a terrible try where Furbank once again took neither the inside nor outside man and allowed a clear run.

I understand he did some good in attack, but I’m starting to think we’d be better off with Smith at FB permanently.


Also, what was the point of that? Beat up Japan up front? Absolutely pointless.

I’m also a bit unsure about some of the omissions. Are Cole, B Curry, Dombrandt, Spencer, Lozowski done?

[Banquo]

So I didn’t get to watch the game, but caught a glimpse. Enough to see England concede a terrible try where Furbank once again took neither the inside nor outside man and allowed a clear run.

I understand he did some good in attack, but I’m starting to think we’d be better off with Smith at FB permanently.


Also, what was the point of that? Beat up Japan up front? Absolutely pointless.

So you are blaming Furbank for that try? Blimey.

If Smith m is to be Englands 15, he needs to be Quins 15. Can’t see that happening.

[Oakboy]

The RFU won't, but I'd be head-hunting for an actual experienced and competent international head coach now.
I would give SB an ultimatum that he needs to secure 1st or 2nd on the 6N to avoid triggering his 6 months notice.

I believe they have someone on the books who monitors and helps develop English coaches here and abroad. If he doesn't have a dossier of prospective options then what's the point in having him.

I'm not sure there's many experienced coaches available I'd actually want. I'd keep Borthwick and more likely force a change in coaching setup on him with O'Shea taking more oversight and helping select new assistants.

O'shea better left with elite pathways....what does 'more oversight' mean and then what Borthwick's job look like? It would look like a dead duck imo and put him in an impossible position. If he's not up to appointing coaches or preparing an intl team, let him learn somewhere else.

Did the professional elite at the RFU do Borthwick any favours with the fixture order of the AIs? Having to win the last of the four made it a bit of a farce. Japan being in any position other than 4th had to serve development better.

It makes me still wonder whether there is a realistic environment for any HC to succeed/excel. Borthwick is not the brightest, IMO, and he has issues left by his predecessor. Together with Wigglesworth, is there an adequate overview to simply get the best out of our players?

All that is before selection and tactics. Any of us could get 10 out of 15 right which is about all Borthwick can claim. Most of us would arguably have done better with numbers 19 - 23!!! As for the blitz defence, I don't see how the decision process will evolve easily ready for the 6N. If the new defence coach was told to stick with it what does that say about him? And, now that it has failed again where will his credibility stand in either keeping it or dumping it?

Overall, there is more wrong than right.

[Epaminondas Pules]

jackalling and dreadful wide defence are two distinct areas for um....urgent attention.
Not sure what Martin did wrong (aside from try fck up, fair) decent tackle count and a big hitter, couple of hard carries, won his lineouts, and doubtless was a big help at tighthead lock for your boy Stuart.

Defence, midfield, backrow and overall plot are just four of our issues.
And carrying. ...and...

Martin comment was based on the series as a whole. He’s missed loads of tackles and seems to be way down in terms of general physicality in the tackle and the carry. Sure he does impact the scrum of course.

I don’t think he was great today either- not terrible but again missed tackles and should really be massively asserting himself physically against the likes of Japan.

Not sure he’s the biggest of our problems tbh. I’d thought he’d gone ok, but maybe it’s all relative.

I thought he was fine too. Not spectacular, but plenty of workload and a lot of physicallity. Martin has always missed a good number of tackles. It's how he plays. Still made 14 yesterday!

He's been there or thereabouts top of the tackling charts each game. 14 v Japan, 12 v SA, 17 v Aus and 16 v NZ.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I believe they have someone on the books who monitors and helps develop English coaches here and abroad. If he doesn't have a dossier of prospective options then what's the point in having him.

I'm not sure there's many experienced coaches available I'd actually want. I'd keep Borthwick and more likely force a change in coaching setup on him with O'Shea taking more oversight and helping select new assistants.

O'shea better left with elite pathways....what does 'more oversight' mean and then what Borthwick's job look like? It would look like a dead duck imo and put him in an impossible position. If he's not up to appointing coaches or preparing an intl team, let him learn somewhere else.

You'd use O'Shea as more of an unofficial mentor. Give some additional advice around assistant coaches make up. Borthwick is a good coach and you'd not have O'Shea there on match day or day to day training. Just don't leave the head coach in isolation again like Eddie was.

O'Shea is, to all intents, a bit of a nodding dog. He's best left with pathways, where he can influence what is coming.

At the top table we have a decent lineout coach, masquerading as a Head Coach surrounded by very inexperienced coaches.

We could do a lot worse than bringing back people like Fletch, who are very good and deeply experienced coaches.

[FKAS]

So I didn’t get to watch the game, but caught a glimpse. Enough to see England concede a terrible try where Furbank once again took neither the inside nor outside man and allowed a clear run.

I understand he did some good in attack, but I’m starting to think we’d be better off with Smith at FB permanently.


Also, what was the point of that? Beat up Japan up front? Absolutely pointless.

So you are blaming Furbank for that try? Blimey.

If Smith m is to be Englands 15, he needs to be Quins 15. Can’t see that happening.

It is a bit harsh. Furbank buying the dummy on an overlap break isn't really at fault.

That was definitely Slade's fault.

[FKAS]

Martin comment was based on the series as a whole. He’s missed loads of tackles and seems to be way down in terms of general physicality in the tackle and the carry. Sure he does impact the scrum of course.

I don’t think he was great today either- not terrible but again missed tackles and should really be massively asserting himself physically against the likes of Japan.

Not sure he’s the biggest of our problems tbh. I’d thought he’d gone ok, but maybe it’s all relative.

I thought he was fine too. Not spectacular, but plenty of workload and a lot of physicallity. Martin has always missed a good number of tackles. It's how he plays. Still made 14 yesterday!

He's been there or thereabouts top of the tackling charts each game. 14 v Japan, 12 v SA, 17 v Aus and 16 v NZ.

Depends what his role is as well. If it's to shoot off the line from close in to the breakdown he might end up missing but the pressure applied means the other forwards can then swarm on the ball carrier before the ball is moved or before they get to the gain line. That is the type of thing we've tried to do.

[Puja]

I think the main conclusion that we can draw from that game is that Felix Jones's defence does not work without Felix Jones.

The bizarre-looking combination of absurd overcommitted charging up regardless of numbers and making the players who fold around cross behind their teammates (rather than filling the inside and pushing them out) somehow works, but it goes against every tenet of defensive organisation that players have ever known. Those are two things that every single previous coach from their youth rugby has hammered it into them are cardinal defensive sins and it's a massive ask to coach an international team to override their engrained instincts.

FJones can clearly make it work in a tight environment and it started looking like he'd managed to make it work in the summer, even with the restriction of working with our spread out player pool from 8 different clubs. It really looked like we'd cracked it in New Zealand, where it neutered one of the best attacking teams in the world.

However, it appears clear that a FJones tribute act cannot make it work, as the tackling accuracy and the organisation weren't there against NZ, we had no ability to adapt to Australia's exploit of overwhelming with short, quick-fire carries, and even on easy mode against Japan, we couldn't get the organisation right of the second line sweeping around to cover the space. I feel a bit for Slade (not enough that I'd still pick him, mind), as he has carried the can from the pundits and the press all series for "mistakes" that were actually him doing exactly what he's supposed to, only to be let down by the team effort, that's supposed to be covering behind him, being entirely absent. Made him look like all the pricks of the day in defence because he was sometimes the only one doing this complex thing that requires everyone to be involved if it's going to work.

Six Nations needs to see the Joe El-Abd defensive system. I don't know what that will be - whether it will be a blitz of some kind or a more traditional defence, but it needs to be his system that he is preparing, because "Joe El-Abd, playing Felix Jones" is not a functional option.

Either that, or we hope the mooted player rebellion against Galthie takes root and he gets ousted so that Edwards becomes unexpectedly free.

Puja

[Stom]

So I didn’t get to watch the game, but caught a glimpse. Enough to see England concede a terrible try where Furbank once again took neither the inside nor outside man and allowed a clear run.

I understand he did some good in attack, but I’m starting to think we’d be better off with Smith at FB permanently.


Also, what was the point of that? Beat up Japan up front? Absolutely pointless.

I’m also a bit unsure about some of the omissions. Are Cole, B Curry, Dombrandt, Spencer, Lozowski done?

TBH, they probably should be...but that's not necessarily their fault. We really need a drastic change of approach, and I feel like I'm going to change my tune slightly and not blame it on Slutty Brafastner...and instead blame it on his bosses...

The RFU have not created a system for success in senior rugby.

[Stom]

So I didn’t get to watch the game, but caught a glimpse. Enough to see England concede a terrible try where Furbank once again took neither the inside nor outside man and allowed a clear run.

I understand he did some good in attack, but I’m starting to think we’d be better off with Smith at FB permanently.


Also, what was the point of that? Beat up Japan up front? Absolutely pointless.

So you are blaming Furbank for that try? Blimey.

If Smith m is to be Englands 15, he needs to be Quins 15. Can’t see that happening.

No, just that he consistently makes the same mistake...

It was a total system failure, again. I do have some sympathy, El-Abd has just started, he's adapting someone else's system, and has had limited time with the players.

BUT

When the mistakes are so obvious and pervasive, to not be able to adapt during the past month is not a good look.

On the Furbank thing, for Japan's second try, there was a moment earlier where Smith had to make a decision from FB. And he made it, made the tackle, and got a breakdown. We then completely failed to defend. And yes, it was much easier than Furbank, but...I have a bit of a hang up about FBs being able to actually defend. Whatever you say about Mike Brown, he could read an attack and make a good decision more times than not. Furbank, like Goode before him, seems unable to do so.

[p/d]

Defence is a mess- not helped at all by having almost zero jackal threat. Isn’t that jackal threat a key part of the saffa defence? Force people inside and then get over the ball?

Martin looks dreadful- is he fit? Both legs strapped..

Earl woeful- bounced off tackles, running around like headless chicken with the ball.

Slade just as bad- looks very slow and some very poor decisions at the line in attack.

Stuart the big plus of this autumn series. Scrummaged well and got around the pitch. Big bonus.

jackalling and dreadful wide defence are two distinct areas for um....urgent attention.
Not sure what Martin did wrong (aside from try fck up, fair) decent tackle count and a big hitter, couple of hard carries, won his lineouts, and doubtless was a big help at tighthead lock for your boy Stuart.

Defence, midfield, backrow and overall plot are just four of our issues.
And carrying. ...and...

Martin comment was based on the series as a whole. He’s missed loads of tackles and seems to be way down in terms of general physicality in the tackle and the carry. Sure he does impact the scrum of course.

I don’t think he was great today either- not terrible but again missed tackles and should really be massively asserting himself physically against the likes of Japan.

Agree. Really disappointing

[Epaminondas Pules]

I think the main conclusion that we can draw from that game is that Felix Jones's defence does not work without Felix Jones.

The bizarre-looking combination of absurd overcommitted charging up regardless of numbers and making the players who fold around cross behind their teammates (rather than filling the inside and pushing them out) somehow works, but it goes against every tenet of defensive organisation that players have ever known. Those are two things that every single previous coach from their youth rugby has hammered it into them are cardinal defensive sins and it's a massive ask to coach an international team to override their engrained instincts.

FJones can clearly make it work in a tight environment and it started looking like he'd managed to make it work in the summer, even with the restriction of working with our spread out player pool from 8 different clubs. It really looked like we'd cracked it in New Zealand, where it neutered one of the best attacking teams in the world.

However, it appears clear that a FJones tribute act cannot make it work, as the tackling accuracy and the organisation weren't there against NZ, we had no ability to adapt to Australia's exploit of overwhelming with short, quick-fire carries, and even on easy mode against Japan, we couldn't get the organisation right of the second line sweeping around to cover the space. I feel a bit for Slade (not enough that I'd still pick him, mind), as he has carried the can from the pundits and the press all series for "mistakes" that were actually him doing exactly what he's supposed to, only to be let down by the team effort, that's supposed to be covering behind him, being entirely absent. Made him look like all the pricks of the day in defence because he was sometimes the only one doing this complex thing that requires everyone to be involved if it's going to work.

Six Nations needs to see the Joe El-Abd defensive system. I don't know what that will be - whether it will be a blitz of some kind or a more traditional defence, but it needs to be his system that he is preparing, because "Joe El-Abd, playing Felix Jones" is not a functional option.

Either that, or we hope the mooted player rebellion against Galthie takes root and he gets ousted so that Edwards becomes unexpectedly free.

Puja

El-Abd never ran a blitz at Oyonnax. I can't see him trying to run one here, though I can see Standing Bewildered trying to enact that very square peg round hole scenario.

Essentially the whole system was just all over the place with individuals then not knowing their roles and approach, and zero ability to adapt to the game in front of them. There was a consistent issue close in both in terms of committing inwards unnecessarily as well as at times pushing outwards without staying connected. We opened a lot of holes for teams by poor connectivity and decision making.

[Banquo]

So I didn’t get to watch the game, but caught a glimpse. Enough to see England concede a terrible try where Furbank once again took neither the inside nor outside man and allowed a clear run.

I understand he did some good in attack, but I’m starting to think we’d be better off with Smith at FB permanently.


Also, what was the point of that? Beat up Japan up front? Absolutely pointless.

So you are blaming Furbank for that try? Blimey.

If Smith m is to be Englands 15, he needs to be Quins 15. Can’t see that happening.

No, just that he consistently makes the same mistake...

Does he? Sure you aren’t confusing him with Steward?

Again, it not the thing I’d take away from that try or our defence. As the last man in a 2 v 1 in tons of space and no opportunity to really close down the ball carrier and prevent a pass, you either make it easy for the ball carrier and commit, or you hope the cover defence can do something. He was screwed tbh

[FKAS]

So you are blaming Furbank for that try? Blimey.

If Smith m is to be Englands 15, he needs to be Quins 15. Can’t see that happening.

No, just that he consistently makes the same mistake...

Does he? Sure you aren’t confusing him with Steward?

Again, it not the thing I’d take away from that try or our defence. As the last man in a 2 v 1 in tons of space and no opportunity to really close down the ball carrier and prevent a pass, you either make it easy for the ball carrier and commit, or you hope the cover defence can do something. He was screwed tbh

Furbank has made the same mistake biting in, in defence and not taking man and ball this Autumn. Has done it a couple of times leading to tries for the opposition. Really has been a bad Autumn for Furbank.

This wasn't one of those times. Definitely Slade starting to come out of the line and then stopping, being in no man's land and giving Japan the space to exploit.

[Banquo]

I think the main conclusion that we can draw from that game is that Felix Jones's defence does not work without Felix Jones.

The bizarre-looking combination of absurd overcommitted charging up regardless of numbers and making the players who fold around cross behind their teammates (rather than filling the inside and pushing them out) somehow works, but it goes against every tenet of defensive organisation that players have ever known. Those are two things that every single previous coach from their youth rugby has hammered it into them are cardinal defensive sins and it's a massive ask to coach an international team to override their engrained instincts.

FJones can clearly make it work in a tight environment and it started looking like he'd managed to make it work in the summer, even with the restriction of working with our spread out player pool from 8 different clubs. It really looked like we'd cracked it in New Zealand, where it neutered one of the best attacking teams in the world.

However, it appears clear that a FJones tribute act cannot make it work, as the tackling accuracy and the organisation weren't there against NZ, we had no ability to adapt to Australia's exploit of overwhelming with short, quick-fire carries, and even on easy mode against Japan, we couldn't get the organisation right of the second line sweeping around to cover the space. I feel a bit for Slade (not enough that I'd still pick him, mind), as he has carried the can from the pundits and the press all series for "mistakes" that were actually him doing exactly what he's supposed to, only to be let down by the team effort, that's supposed to be covering behind him, being entirely absent. Made him look like all the pricks of the day in defence because he was sometimes the only one doing this complex thing that requires everyone to be involved if it's going to work.

Six Nations needs to see the Joe El-Abd defensive system. I don't know what that will be - whether it will be a blitz of some kind or a more traditional defence, but it needs to be his system that he is preparing, because "Joe El-Abd, playing Felix Jones" is not a functional option.

Either that, or we hope the mooted player rebellion against Galthie takes root and he gets ousted so that Edwards becomes unexpectedly free.

Puja

El-Abd never ran a blitz at Oyonnax. I can't see him trying to run one here, though I can see Standing Bewildered trying to enact that very square peg round hole scenario.

Essentially the whole system was just all over the place with individuals then not knowing their roles and approach, and zero ability to adapt to the game in front of them. There was a consistent issue close in both in terms of committing inwards unnecessarily as well as at times pushing outwards without staying connected. We opened a lot of holes for teams by poor connectivity and decision making.

Aye.
El Abd is an odd one when you look at his club stats. They are mates I believe?

[jngf]

Defence is a mess- not helped at all by having almost zero jackal threat. Isn’t that jackal threat a key part of the saffa defence? Force people inside and then get over the ball?

Martin looks dreadful- is he fit? Both legs strapped..

Earl woeful- bounced off tackles, running around like headless chicken with the ball.

Slade just as bad- looks very slow and some very poor decisions at the line in attack.

Stuart the big plus of this autumn series. Scrummaged well and got around the pitch. Big bonus.

jackalling and dreadful wide defence are two distinct areas for um....urgent attention.
Not sure what Martin did wrong (aside from try fck up, fair) decent tackle count and a big hitter, couple of hard carries, won his lineouts, and doubtless was a big help at tighthead lock for your boy Stuart.

Defence, midfield, backrow and overall plot are just four of our issues.
And carrying. ...and...

Martin comment was based on the series as a whole. He’s missed loads of tackles and seems to be way down in terms of general physicality in the tackle and the carry. Sure he does impact the scrum of course.

I don’t think he was great today either- not terrible but again missed tackles and should really be massively asserting himself physically against the likes of Japan.

We do need to produce another tight head lock rather than relying solely on Martin, even if we need to give out some UK passports to some big saffas