RugbyRebels

Response on twitter to the former diplomats Craig Murray fanciful piece. This guy appears to know his stuff.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/9741 ... 22592.html

Well, we can argue about who'se right and who's wrong till the cows come home, but this pretty much sums the situation up right now:

rowan wrote: Shame on Jeremy Corbyn for yet again wanting to see the evidence before jumping to conclusions

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has a despicable track record of wanting to see evidence before concluding that people are guilty – and it’s simply not the British way. Corbyn did it with Iraq, with Afghanistan, with Libya and with Syria – and now the meddling nelly is up to his old tricks again with Russia.

Granted, when the evidence finally came out, Corbyn was proved right on Iraq. And Afghanistan. And definitely Libya and Syria given that Britain’s rush to war sparked the catastrophic proliferation of the ISIS death cult. But with Russia’s alleged involvement in the poisoning of Double Agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Corbyn really needs to stop asking tough questions and simply accept that Russia definitely must have done it.

Today after Theresa May’s statement on the Salisbury attack, the know-it-all Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn began asking the Prime Minister completely irrelevant questions such as if the Tories had ordered samples of the nerve agent to be sent for analysis to see if it originated in Moscow (which the Tories hadn’t), and about why the Tories decided to make sweeping cuts to the British Diplomatic Service – a service which definitely wouldn’t have prevented the attack despite this kind of attack being one of the things the service would have previously made plans to try and prevent.

These questions were about as irrelevant as when the public and a small minority of MPs had the temerity to ask the government for proof that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction (WMD) before we invaded Iraq and killed around a million civilians. It doesn’t matter one jot that Saddam turned out not to have them – what matters is that he was an evil dictator and deserved what was coming to him – much like Putin.

Evidence should always be irrelevant when it comes to our decisions to attack the bad guys – and, as Britain and our Western allies are so clearly always the good guys because we try (and sometimes inevitably fail) to spread freedom, we should simply be forgiven for making catastrophic mistakes in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, and be allowed to flout whatever international laws we like and jump to whatever conclusions we see fit based only on flimsy evidence in the pursuit of our strangely murderous but definitely righteous version of freedom.

Dr Patricia White, who served on the 2004-6 WMD Commission and is now the Research Director for International Security at Chatham House, said that British experts would definitely be able to detect minute trace elements in the Novichok nerve agent used in Salisbury that would prove the country of origin, stating:

“There are very high resolution analysis techniques that can track down trace elements, certain types of chemicals in the particular region where it has been made.

Russia knows there are techniques to pinpoint where something came from” adding that “Whoever did this would know this was traceable back to Russia. So why use such an obvious thing, leaving such an obvious trace?”

And, whilst briefing journalists after his traitorous rebuttal to our glorious leader in the Commons today, Corbyn’s spokesman Seamus Milne grumbled that:

“I think obviously the government has access to information and intelligence on this matter which others don’t; however, also there’s a history in relation to WMD and intelligence which is problematic to put it mildly.

So I think the right approach is to seek the evidence; to follow international treaties, particularly in relation to prohibited chemical weapons, because this was a chemical weapons attack, carried out on British soil. There are procedures that need to be followed in relation to that.”

But the fact that Corbyn is whining on about wanting to see proof again shouldn’t pressure the government into releasing the definitive scientific evidence that British authorities should already be in possession of – because it would only tell us what we already know, that Russia are definitely culpable. Plus, it would vindicate Corbyn’s obvious lack of trust in the establishment – an establishment who quite rightly need the general public to place their blind trust in everything they say without feeling like they need to ask valid questions or wanting to see evidence.

And the fact that ex-MI5 agent Annie Machon also questioned the government’s rush to judgement to blame Russia – saying that the “UK facility for identifying those agents was able to identify this very quickly [which would] indicate that they [knew] exactly what this nerve agent is, which means that they have the chemical formula for it too.” – should simply be ignored. British secret service agents are notoriously untrustworthy and unintelligent – MI5 have virtually no background checks and regularly let any Tom, Dick or Harry work for them and trust to keep Britain’s most important State secrets.

Former MI5 agent Machon also ridiculously speculated that Russia may not have had a motive for poisoning Mr Skripal, saying that “From the very start of this story… they need to work out what the motive was […] Skripal was a guy who had been caught by the Russians. He’d been tried and convicted, sent to prison, and then released and pardoned by the Russians, and sent back to the UK. He had been debriefed – picked clean, intelligence-wise, both by the Russians… and by MI6 when he came to live in the UK. So what is the motive there?”

It makes no odds that Skripal had been released from a Russian prison and pardoned – Putin is evil and would clearly jump at the chance to risk potentially catastrophic ramifications by deploying a banned chemical weapon which could obviously be traced back to him on British soil to try and murder someone who he had released from prison and pardoned.

And, as Theresa May said in her incredibly strong and stable statement today:

“[…] on Monday I set out that Mr Skripal and his daughter were poisoned with Novichok: a military grade nerve agent developed by Russia.

Based on this capability, combined with their [Russia’s] record of conducting state sponsored assassinations – including against former intelligence officers whom they regard as legitimate targets – the UK Government concluded it was highly likely that Russia was responsible for this reckless and despicable act.”

For the Tories and almost every Labour right-winger who got it completely wrong about Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria, the circumstantial evidence set out by Theresa May today is, quite rightly, all the proof that these truly patriotic Brits need to jump to conclusions once again.

I mean, what possible harm can getting it completely wrong and jumping to conclusions on such an important foreign policy decision do again?

There were cries of “shame” from both the Tory benches and the Labour backbenches after Jeremy Corbyn failed to condemn the Kremlin outright for the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter, and they were right. Shame on Jeremy Corbyn for yet again wanting to see the evidence before jumping to conclusions.

https://evolvepolitics.com/shame-on-jer ... nclusions/

"That this even needs to be pointed out (via heavy sarcasm) is a huge indictment of Britain's childish political and media culture." - Jonathan Cook

May be for you but for me this sums it up far better.

If your default view is that UK government/intelligence services must be lying but Vladimir Putin must be given the benefit of the doubt, you are not a sceptic/independent thinker. You are a credulous dupe/useful idiot who will believe anything but evidence.
If you cannot tell the difference between a government manipulating intelligence to justify a war it is already hell-bent on pursuing, & a government relying on intelligence in an unwanted dispute that has been forced upon it, you should consider a course in critical thinking.
If you think Jeremy Corbyn, Seumas Milne & co are keen on facts & fairness rather than giving pious-sounding cover to a worldview that says the West is always wrong & therefore even an autocratic, oligarchic Russia always right, I have a lovely bridge that might interest you.

Not my words but i'm pretty much on the same page.

May be for you but for me this sums it up far better.

If your default view is that UK government/intelligence services are telling the honest truth about Vladimir Putin you are not a sceptic/independent thinker. You are a credulous dupe/useful idiot who will believe anything but evidence.
If you cannot tell the difference between a government manipulating intelligence to justify a war it is already hell-bent on pursuing, & a government (unlike Britain's) relying on legitimate evidence, you should consider a course in critical thinking.
If you think Jeremy Corbyn, Seumas Milne & co are giving pious-sounding cover to a worldview that says the West is always wrong & therefore even an autocratic, oligarchic Russia always right, then you were undoubtedly a cheerleader for the genocidal and illegal war on Iraq which has led to over a million deaths, as well as similarly destructive wars elsewhere, and a Russophobic idiot to boot.

Not my words but i'm pretty much on the same page.

As clear an admission that Russia has stocks of Novichok as you are going to get from a Russian.

France & the Irish press now sharing Corbyn's skepticism, apparently:

rowan wrote:France & the Irish press now sharing Corbyn's skepticism, apparently:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -statement

The leaders of Britain, the US, Germany and France have released a joint statement strongly condemning the Salisbury nerve agent attack as “an assault on UK sovereignty” and saying it is highly likely that Russia was behind it.

George Galloway is an RT funded window-licker.

Stones of granite wrote:

rowan wrote:France & the Irish press now sharing Corbyn's skepticism, apparently:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -statement

The leaders of Britain, the US, Germany and France have released a joint statement strongly condemning the Salisbury nerve agent attack as “an assault on UK sovereignty” and saying it is highly likely that Russia was behind it.

George Galloway is an RT funded window-licker.

President Emmanuel Macron and other French officials have declined to point a finger directly at Russia https://www.todayonline.com/world/franc ... ing-affair

France undermined Theresa May’s attempts to build a consensus for punitive action against Russia last night by accusing her of punishing the regime prematurely. President Macron’s spokesman derided Mrs May’s decision to act against Moscow after the Salisbury poisonings https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fran ... -37b27qd2s

As a neutral, I'll take RT over the Guardian any day. You need to stop reading that warmongering propaganda

Zhivago wrote: I must say, it was really fortunate that this attack happened just 7 miles away from where our experts in this field work...

It's a helluva coincidence. And now that nice Mr.Williamson is giving them a whopping new budget.
But , let's be clear, this £48million is for chemical weapons 'defence'.

rowan wrote:

Stones of granite wrote:

rowan wrote:France & the Irish press now sharing Corbyn's skepticism, apparently:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -statement

The leaders of Britain, the US, Germany and France have released a joint statement strongly condemning the Salisbury nerve agent attack as “an assault on UK sovereignty” and saying it is highly likely that Russia was behind it.

George Galloway is an RT funded window-licker.

President Emmanuel Macron and other French officials have declined to point a finger directly at Russia https://www.todayonline.com/world/franc ... ing-affair

France undermined Theresa May’s attempts to build a consensus for punitive action against Russia last night by accusing her of punishing the regime prematurely. President Macron’s spokesman derided Mrs May’s decision to act against Moscow after the Salisbury poisonings https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fran ... -37b27qd2s

As a neutral, I'll take RT over the Guardian any day. You need to stop reading that warmongering propaganda

OK, you don't believe the Guardian report. What newspaper would you like? Here's the same report in the Swiss Tagesanzeiger.
https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ausland/st ... y/28166788

Auch die USA, Grossbritannien, Frankreich und Deutschland vermuten, dass Russland hinter dem Giftanschlag auf den Ex-Spion steckt.

translation:

The USA, Great Britain, France, and Germany also suspect that Russia is behind the poison attack on the former spy.

Here it is again on your puppet-master's pet news site
https://www.rt.com/news/421396-nerve-ag ... e-skripal/

France, Germany, US, UK say Salisbury incident a violation of UK’s territorial integrity by Russia

Mind you, I'll give you that this IS a warmonger's mouthpiece.

kk67 wrote:

Zhivago wrote: I must say, it was really fortunate that this attack happened just 7 miles away from where our experts in this field work...

It's a helluva coincidence. And now that nice Mr.Williamson is giving them a whopping new budget.
But , let's be clear, this £48million is for chemical weapons 'defence'.

It's not a coincidence at all. It's a message. Loud and clear.

Someone who is Russian certainly did it.....but this is espionage, there's no real way of knowing. Like Zhivago said this guy would have had hundreds of enemies. I get the feeling our government is pissed because it seems like they can't protect their pet oligarchs, crooks and traitors who bring so much Wonga into the city and info to the secret services.
Someone's fcked up and government is going on the offensive.

kk67 wrote:Someone who is Russian certainly did it.....but this is espionage, there's no real way of knowing. Like Zhivago said this guy would have had hundreds of enemies. I get the feeling our government is pissed because it seems like they can't protect their pet oligarchs, crooks and traitors who bring so much Wonga into the city and info to the secret services.
Someone's fcked up and government is going on the offensive.

You don't think a foreign government carrying out a chemical weapons attack on British sovereign territory is enough to make our government pissed?

kk67 wrote:Someone who is Russian certainly did it.....but this is espionage, there's no real way of knowing. Like Zhivago said this guy would have had hundreds of enemies. I get the feeling our government is pissed because it seems like they can't protect their pet oligarchs, crooks and traitors who bring so much Wonga into the city and info to the secret services.
Someone's fcked up and government is going on the offensive.

No, the British (& fellow NATO governments) are pissed because Russia thwarted their attempt to seize control of Syria with yet another genocidal war. That's why Russophobic paranoia and racism have reached fever pitch over the last couple of years. My guess is the British government staged the whole thing to heighten the hysteria and create a diplomatic crisis on the eve of the Russian elections (& FIFA World Cup).

Stones of granite wrote:

kk67 wrote:Someone who is Russian certainly did it.....but this is espionage, there's no real way of knowing. Like Zhivago said this guy would have had hundreds of enemies. I get the feeling our government is pissed because it seems like they can't protect their pet oligarchs, crooks and traitors who bring so much Wonga into the city and info to the secret services.
Someone's fcked up and government is going on the offensive.

You don't think a foreign government carrying out a chemical weapons attack on British sovereign territory is enough to make our government pissed?

Yeah, good point. Should have taken him into international waters like we did to Robert Maxwell.

rowan wrote: No, the British (& fellow NATO governments) are pissed because Russia thwarted their attempt to seize control of Syria with yet another genocidal war. That's why Russophobic paranoia and racism have reached fever pitch over the last couple of years.

It's all about the access to the natural gas market.
Article in Private Eye yesterday. We had to buy gas back wholesale from industry during the recent snowmaggeddon (4 days),...they charged a huge price. The consumer prices will rocket in the Autumn and the price won't restabilise for awhile.
Oddly it seems the fault was that the French were stockpiling and had been told not to sell to us. That's a hard Brexit.

These theories are brilliant guys, keep them coming. I haven't had a belly laugh like this in ages.

My pet theory is that Eddie Jones had the attack carried out in order to divert attention from his inability to pick a backrow than can compete in the 6 Nations.

I did it and so did my wife!

The UK is totally dependant on imported gas during the winter as our storage ability is so small. The prices shoot up in winter in any case and any shortage of supply quickly becomes a problem. We get most of it from Norway but the supply from Qataar (who we're totally in bed with) comes by ship which will be prone to weather conditions and the rest is topped up with whatever we can buy on the open market or buy back from industry.
The price has increased almost 10 fold in the cold weather.
And that might seem commercially worth starting a war,.... if you're a feckwit politician.

kk67 wrote:The UK is totally dependant on imported gas during the winter as our storage ability is so small. The prices shoot up in winter in any case and any shortage of supply quickly becomes a problem. We get most of it from Norway but the supply from Qataar (who we're totally in bed with) comes by ship which will be prone to weather conditions and the rest is topped up with whatever we can buy on the open market or buy back from industry.
The price has increased almost 10 fold in the cold weather.
And that might seem commercially worth starting a war,.... if you're a feckwit politician.

We're trying to start a war with Russia to make gas prices cheaper? How would that work?

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:I did it and so did my wife!

I knew it!
The whole of Wiltshire is reeking from the noxious gaseous product of part-digested stilton and cauliflower soup. There can only be one culprit.

Stones of granite wrote:These theories are brilliant guys, keep them coming. I haven't had a belly laugh like this in ages.

My pet theory is that Eddie Jones had the attack carried out in order to divert attention from his inability to pick a backrow than can compete in the 6 Nations.

I've been of the view that either Israel did it, or we did it to have an excuse to close down RT to prevent the truth reaching the people, but yours is better. Is Eddie perhaps Jewish? That could complete the circle.

Digby wrote:

Stones of granite wrote:These theories are brilliant guys, keep them coming. I haven't had a belly laugh like this in ages.

My pet theory is that Eddie Jones had the attack carried out in order to divert attention from his inability to pick a backrow than can compete in the 6 Nations.

I've been of the view that either Israel did it, or we did it to have an excuse to close down RT to prevent the truth reaching the people, but yours is better. Is Eddie perhaps Jewish? That could complete the circle.

Not only is he jewish, but he's japanese, australian jewish, and you know what they're like.

Stones of granite wrote: We're trying to start a war with Russia to make gas prices cheaper? How would that work?

Like I said, we're in bed with Qataar but it comes by ship. If it comes by pipeline it gets a lot cheaper. Iraq also has massive reserves and they both want to build a pipeline through Syria. Hence the pipeline war.
We could take a lot more gas from Gazprom like several other European countries.