RugbyRebels

I think we are all missing the fact that Asian countries have had a horror drill in the form of previous epidemics that has resulted in the establishment of centralised, dedicated response infrastructure. That's not cultural, it's logical. The failure of the west to deal with this with comparable efficiency is rooted in the 4 decades long erosion of trust in a centralised infrastructure by way of a, now manifest, flawed ideology. Focusing on cultural stereotypes is not only lazy, it risks lessons being learned now not being reinforced for future episodes.

Some of the best cyber defences are to be found in Estonia. Getting a kicking is a good teaching method it appears. Certainly we should have learnt lessons from a number of Asian governments following SARS but if we don’t learn the lessons this time then we don’t deserve to survive.

morepork wrote:I think we are all missing the fact that Asian countries have had a horror drill in the form of previous epidemics that has resulted in the establishment of centralised, dedicated response infrastructure. That's not cultural, it's logical. The failure of the west to deal with this with comparable efficiency is rooted in the 4 decades long erosion of trust in a centralised infrastructure by way of a, now manifest, flawed ideology. Focusing on cultural stereotypes is not only lazy, it risks lessons being learned now not being reinforced for future episodes.

I wrote ‘there are things we could learn from them’. Not sure how that equates to ‘it risks lessons being learned now not being reinforced for future episodes‘.
Different countries have different cultures. Nothing lazy about it, just fact. We can learn from their response and realise we have very different cultures. They are not mutually exclusive.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

Banquo wrote: Isn't that the UK strategy of about two weeks ago?

Yes it seems to be.

When this is all over, I hope there will be an honest appraisal of why so many more people died in the West than in the far East.

They took it seriously early on. We kept comparing it to the flu and not really preparing for it to hit us. It’s taken the unfolding crisis in Italy to change opinion, although there are one ty who keep banging on about the damage to the economy and the cure being worse than the disease.

Sandydragon wrote:Some of the best cyber defences are to be found in Estonia. Getting a kicking is a good teaching method it appears. Certainly we should have learnt lessons from a number of Asian governments following SARS but if we don’t learn the lessons this time then we don’t deserve to survive.

True but, for example, I doubt Europeans would tolerate the lockdown they implemented in China.
The obvious lesson to learn is that China must radically improve standards in their markets.

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Donny osmond wrote: Yes it seems to be.

When this is all over, I hope there will be an honest appraisal of why so many more people died in the West than in the far East.

They took it seriously early on. We kept comparing it to the flu and not really preparing for it to hit us. It’s taken the unfolding crisis in Italy to change opinion, although there are one ty who keep banging on about the damage to the economy and the cure being worse than the disease.

a- anyone believe the Chinese stats?
b- societal differences huge
c- we are all guessing

Banquo wrote: a- anyone believe the Chinese stats?
b- societal differences huge
c- we are all guessing

Does anyone believe anyone's stats?

Mellsblue wrote:

morepork wrote:I think we are all missing the fact that Asian countries have had a horror drill in the form of previous epidemics that has resulted in the establishment of centralised, dedicated response infrastructure. That's not cultural, it's logical. The failure of the west to deal with this with comparable efficiency is rooted in the 4 decades long erosion of trust in a centralised infrastructure by way of a, now manifest, flawed ideology. Focusing on cultural stereotypes is not only lazy, it risks lessons being learned now not being reinforced for future episodes.

I wrote ‘there are things we could learn from them’. Not sure how that equates to ‘it risks lessons being learned now not being reinforced for future episodes‘.
Different countries have different cultures. Nothing lazy about it, just fact. We can learn from their response and realise we have very different cultures. They are not mutually exclusive.

It's biology. If country A has gone through a biohazard drill and come out of it with a more efficient infrastructure and country B has decided not to adopt that infrastructure, country B has not had thatunderstood that object lesson bourne of the country A experience. Country B has not responded to the data. Was that idiot UK minister feeding his kids beef burgers on TV during a CJD outbreak just a cultural quirk or a product of ignorance of a biological phenomenon?

Sandydragon wrote:Some of the best cyber defences are to be found in Estonia. Getting a kicking is a good teaching method it appears. Certainly we should have learnt lessons from a number of Asian governments following SARS but if we don’t learn the lessons this time then we don’t deserve to survive.

Fucking hell Sylvia Plath. Easy does it.

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Some of the best cyber defences are to be found in Estonia. Getting a kicking is a good teaching method it appears. Certainly we should have learnt lessons from a number of Asian governments following SARS but if we don’t learn the lessons this time then we don’t deserve to survive.

True but, for example, I doubt Europeans would tolerate the lockdown they implemented in China.
The obvious lesson to learn is that China must radically improve standards in their markets.

I don’t disagree but we seemed to take an age getting testing resources in place, not to mention PPE.

If the outbreak can definitely be traced to Chinese food markets then it’s time they had their practices reviewed. This can’t keep happening if these outbreaks are preventable.

Regarding Germany's low mortality rate, there is another siver lining in that Dräger is the world's biggest manufacturer of ventilators and orders understandably have gone durch das Dach.

Meanwhile UK resorts to type (last minute larry/ go-it alone garry) and heads toward a potential
crisis that may require friends' help in providing machines..GTech's quick/basic offering got the 'thanks/no thanks' I understand, and there have been delays elsewhere in the UK bolstering of the 30k required.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52083998

This is a guide to dealing with Covid-19, South Korean-style:

https://www.csis.org/analysis/timeline- ... e-covid-19

Big investment in testing.
Special immigration procedures for arrivals from risk areas (initially Wuhan, now much of the rest of the World).
Strict quarantining of those infected.
School closure.
The economy has NOT shut down, because effective action was taken. Much less expensive than letting the virus get a hold.

This is how a nation of 51 million, next door but one to China only has 152 Covid-19 death as of today.
Western governments should pay close attention.
It's too late to get it right but we can improve the trajectory of this thing massively.

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Some of the best cyber defences are to be found in Estonia. Getting a kicking is a good teaching method it appears. Certainly we should have learnt lessons from a number of Asian governments following SARS but if we don’t learn the lessons this time then we don’t deserve to survive.

True but, for example, I doubt Europeans would tolerate the lockdown they implemented in China.
The obvious lesson to learn is that China must radically improve standards in their markets.

I don’t disagree but we seemed to take an age getting testing resources in place, not to mention PPE.

If the outbreak can definitely be traced to Chinese food markets then it’s time they had their practices reviewed. This can’t keep happening if these outbreaks are preventable.

Agreed. There are things we could/should’ve learned but we couldn’t just pick up a plan in its whole from elsewhere and seamlessly transplant it here.

morepork wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

morepork wrote:I think we are all missing the fact that Asian countries have had a horror drill in the form of previous epidemics that has resulted in the establishment of centralised, dedicated response infrastructure. That's not cultural, it's logical. The failure of the west to deal with this with comparable efficiency is rooted in the 4 decades long erosion of trust in a centralised infrastructure by way of a, now manifest, flawed ideology. Focusing on cultural stereotypes is not only lazy, it risks lessons being learned now not being reinforced for future episodes.

I wrote ‘there are things we could learn from them’. Not sure how that equates to ‘it risks lessons being learned now not being reinforced for future episodes‘.
Different countries have different cultures. Nothing lazy about it, just fact. We can learn from their response and realise we have very different cultures. They are not mutually exclusive.

It's biology. If country A has gone through a biohazard drill and come out of it with a more efficient infrastructure and country B has decided not to adopt that infrastructure, country B has not had thatunderstood that object lesson bourne of the country A experience. Country B has not responded to the data. Was that idiot UK minister feeding his kids beef burgers on TV during a CJD outbreak just a cultural quirk or a product of ignorance of a biological phenomenon?

As per my previous post, you can and should learn lessons but I maintain you couldn’t just implement the social distancing measures in Europe the way you could in eg Japan or China.

https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/

Mellsblue wrote:

morepork wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: I wrote ‘there are things we could learn from them’. Not sure how that equates to ‘it risks lessons being learned now not being reinforced for future episodes‘.
Different countries have different cultures. Nothing lazy about it, just fact. We can learn from their response and realise we have very different cultures. They are not mutually exclusive.

It's biology. If country A has gone through a biohazard drill and come out of it with a more efficient infrastructure and country B has decided not to adopt that infrastructure, country B has not had thatunderstood that object lesson bourne of the country A experience. Country B has not responded to the data. Was that idiot UK minister feeding his kids beef burgers on TV during a CJD outbreak just a cultural quirk or a product of ignorance of a biological phenomenon?

As per my previous post, you can and should learn lessons but I maintain you couldn’t just implement the social distancing measures in Europe the way you could in eg Japan or China.

why not?

morepork wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

morepork wrote:

It's biology. If country A has gone through a biohazard drill and come out of it with a more efficient infrastructure and country B has decided not to adopt that infrastructure, country B has not had thatunderstood that object lesson bourne of the country A experience. Country B has not responded to the data. Was that idiot UK minister feeding his kids beef burgers on TV during a CJD outbreak just a cultural quirk or a product of ignorance of a biological phenomenon?

As per my previous post, you can and should learn lessons but I maintain you couldn’t just implement the social distancing measures in Europe the way you could in eg Japan or China.

why not?

For the same reasons that some schools in the UK decided to close prior to the govt telling them to close, that people are already disobeying social distancing measures, that there are already reports of unrest in Italy and that there is already a growing movement in the UK that the risk is overblown and/or the economic fall out is not worth it. That’s before you get the fact a decent percentage of this country have a deep mistrust in this govt.

Not helped that this government and their supporters have spent the last few years being strong on the idea you cannot trust authority/experts and that you the uniformed irrational retard are the better judge of reality

Yep. Plus anti-vaxxers in charge in Italy, Trump in the US and numerous experts (I mean actual experts not Colin the tree surgeon on Twitter) openly criticising the govt in the UK (nothing wrong with that), most vociferous of whom is the editor of The Lancet who refused to withdraw Wakefield’s anti-MMR vaccine until 2010.
It’s going to be a long few months.

I didn't even know there was an anti-MMR vaccine, what was it and what was it claimed that it did?

Digby wrote:I didn't even know there was an anti-MMR vaccine, what was it and what was it claimed that it did?

I’m assuming you’re being facetious.

I knew there was a push not to have the MMR vaccine and I knew there was a push the vaccine shouldn't be a combined MMR approach. I didn't know there was a vaccine that was designed to protect against the MMR vaccine

Digby wrote:I knew there was a push not to have the MMR vaccine and I knew there was a push the vaccine shouldn't be a combined MMR approach. I didn't know there was a vaccine that was designed to protect against the MMR vaccine

It was my poor editing, ironically. Should’ve read:
‘refused to withdraw Wakefield’s anti-MMR vaccine paper’

An interesting, and depressing, thread from someone at the coal face:

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote: a- anyone believe the Chinese stats?
b- societal differences huge
c- we are all guessing

Does anyone believe anyone's stats?

No, ours are also bollocks, so why try and draw a comparison.