Autumn International Squad

[Mellsblue]

What does Farrell actually bring to the team if he doesn’t lead by example and have a high work rate? Other than ice for the post match Woo Woos, obvs.

[Puja]

I hadn't noticed Nowell's input on the Carerras try that some of you mentioned earlier, but saw the clip pop up just now and it's not good.



Even with Nowell's pace he absolutely would have stopped Carerras being able to run at 45 degrees away from Steward. Really awful.

Oof. That is not a pretty replay to watch and a straight droppable offence from Nowell.

Farrell I can mildly find excuses for, as he was never in a position to stop Carreras and and argument could be made that he provided more utility in flapping his arms at the referee and protesting in the hope that a whistle would be blown (not that that's a great excuse, but it is something). Nowell on the other hand is probably the only player on the pitch in position to stop Carreras and he just... doesn't. My daughter's U7s are taught to play to the whistle, but he looks at an Argentine running towards his unguarded line and seems to come to the conclusion that it's nothing to do with him.

I don't even know what he's doing in that position in the first place. He's just ambling somewhere. No-one knows where. He's just on a gentle jog. He wasn't even moving to do anything useful in the abortive attack, he was just gently jogging. Perhaps his step count was low on his Fitbit and he's just getting in a quick ramble?

I haven't seen anyone that confused on a rugby pitch since watching [Redacted] wandering about against Australia.

Puja

....nah on Faz, had Carreras been caught, as he should have by a Nowell Steward combo, ad been tackled/had to pass/had to kick then he has a part to play if he gets in the vicinity. Poor.

Fair point.

On a related point, I don't think Steward should even have been involved there - if Nowell actually engages with the play and breaks into a run, instead of moving like a badly programmed EA Sports character that's possibly going to keep walking until it clips out of the stadium animation, then he should be catching Carreras only a few strides after he picks up the ball.

Two people who do deserve praise - LCD works hard to change direction and puts his all into getting back to the ball, and Steward shows good reaction time and early recognition of where he needs to go, as well as some pretty impressive pace to force Carreras out wide instead of letting him saunter under the posts. While we're castigating the people who didn't work at all, I've got time for both of them working their arses off to try and stop that.

Puja

[Beasties]

Ah! Good. Missed that

Did Itoje not captain Sarries quite a lot when he first started playing for them? I found it remarkable at his age. Or have I imagined that?

He captained England U20s and led Sarries in the Mickey Mouse Cup, but in first XV games, he was always behind Barritt.

Puja

Ta.

[Which Tyler]

What does Farrell actually bring to the team if he doesn’t lead by example and have a high work rate? Other than ice for the post match Woo Woos, obvs.

Same for Jack TBH - renowned for his workrate

In contrast, Zach was often getting accused of being workshy

Note also, 5-6 other Bath players (including workshy slow-coach Coka) also busting their arses to get back and provide whatever support they could, even if they couldn't get to Smith personally. As opposed to England's 1

[Mellsblue]

What does Farrell actually bring to the team if he doesn’t lead by example and have a high work rate? Other than ice for the post match Woo Woos, obvs.

Same for Jack TBH - renowned for his workrate

In contrast, Zach was often getting accused of being workshy

Note also, 5-6 other Bath players (including workshy slow-coach Coka) also busting their arses to get back and provide whatever support they could, even if they couldn't get to Smith personally. As opposed to England's 1

Very true. Not sure what it says/tells us that our two high work rate players are giving up so easily.

[Oakboy]

What does Farrell actually bring to the team if he doesn’t lead by example and have a high work rate? Other than ice for the post match Woo Woos, obvs.

Same for Jack TBH - renowned for his workrate

In contrast, Zach was often getting accused of being workshy

Note also, 5-6 other Bath players (including workshy slow-coach Coka) also busting their arses to get back and provide whatever support they could, even if they couldn't get to Smith personally. As opposed to England's 1

Very true. Not sure what it says/tells us that our two high work rate players are giving up so easily.

At the very least it must tell us that the players are not going on to the pitch in the right frame of mind. It probably also indicates that there is a breakdown of method because playing by numbers is failing without an automatic on-the-hoof fall-back system. Overall, a drastically poor preparation routine seems to prevail.

[Banquo]

Same for Jack TBH - renowned for his workrate

In contrast, Zach was often getting accused of being workshy

Note also, 5-6 other Bath players (including workshy slow-coach Coka) also busting their arses to get back and provide whatever support they could, even if they couldn't get to Smith personally. As opposed to England's 1

Very true. Not sure what it says/tells us that our two high work rate players are giving up so easily.

At the very least it must tell us that the players are not going on to the pitch in the right frame of mind. It probably also indicates that there is a breakdown of method because playing by numbers is failing without an automatic on-the-hoof fall-back system. Overall, a drastically poor preparation routine seems to prevail.

Sorry, but Nowell not doing what any decent player would do is not down to preparation. For a guy who is pretty lucky to be in the side, he's not showing much nous there. I'd have a go at Eddie for picking him, mind- and other things

[Oakboy]

Sorry, but Nowell not doing what any decent player would do is not down to preparation. For a guy who is pretty lucky to be in the side, he's not showing much nous there. I'd have a go at Eddie for picking him, mind- and other things

I understand your take on it and you have never rated Nowell as an international winger. I don't think you can accuse him of (normally) not thinking, not working his nuts off or not being a team man. Specifically, for Exeter I have seen him run loads of yards fruitlessly in an attempt to make a last-ditch tackle etc. What I am getting at is that this indefensible behaviour/attitude is not characteristic of him as a player/person. That is not necessarily any sort of excuse but I can't help wondering about his state of mind in that specific situation. Why behave like that for England on this single occasion, not do it normally for England and never do it for Exeter? Throw him out and never pick him again is one answer. Fair enough.

But, was the collective preparation of attitude up to scratch? Might someone else act uncharacteristically next?

[Mikey Brown]

I quite like this guy and I don't mean this as a dig at him, but it does seem funny describing 'scrum-half passes to a big guy 5m out' as an excellent set play attack. Granted, it's a nice touch to run more at the gaps than the defenders.



That shove from Farrell was probably his best contribution.

[Mikey Brown]

Sorry, but Nowell not doing what any decent player would do is not down to preparation. For a guy who is pretty lucky to be in the side, he's not showing much nous there. I'd have a go at Eddie for picking him, mind- and other things

I understand your take on it and you have never rated Nowell as an international winger. I don't think you can accuse him of (normally) not thinking, not working his nuts off or not being a team man. Specifically, for Exeter I have seen him run loads of yards fruitlessly in an attempt to make a last-ditch tackle etc. What I am getting at is that this indefensible behaviour/attitude is not characteristic of him as a player/person. That is not necessarily any sort of excuse but I can't help wondering about his state of mind in that specific situation. Why behave like that for England on this single occasion, not do it normally for England and never do it for Exeter? Throw him out and never pick him again is one answer. Fair enough.

But, was the collective preparation of attitude up to scratch? Might someone else act uncharacteristically next?

Even I can say that you do have a tendency to blame Eddie for absolutely everything, but you do wonder if the players are so micro-managed they're just forgetting how to react or think for themselves? I'd have thought Nowell's first instinct there is to chase him, as you say he's got his issues but commitment isn't normally one.

[Oakboy]

Even I can say that you do have a tendency to blame Eddie for absolutely everything, but you do wonder if the players are so micro-managed they're just forgetting how to react or think for themselves? I'd have thought Nowell's first instinct there is to chase him, as you say he's got his issues but commitment isn't normally one.

MB, I accept that general criticism. However, when it comes to getting the team 'up for it' and instilling the right attitude concerning commitment and discipline, can a head-coach delegate? Jones MUST set the tone, surely? All the constituent coaching parts are laid at the door of the appropriate assistant but the essence of mood and application can only come from the top, IMO. If a team does not perform on the day the buck stops with the guy in charge.

You'd get no argument from me if this incident waved goodbye to Nowell and Farrell. It might be a good example to set. I want to see a fully prepared and committed team on the pitch for 80 minutes. When was the last time that happened, though?

[Stom]

Sorry, but Nowell not doing what any decent player would do is not down to preparation. For a guy who is pretty lucky to be in the side, he's not showing much nous there. I'd have a go at Eddie for picking him, mind- and other things

I understand your take on it and you have never rated Nowell as an international winger. I don't think you can accuse him of (normally) not thinking, not working his nuts off or not being a team man. Specifically, for Exeter I have seen him run loads of yards fruitlessly in an attempt to make a last-ditch tackle etc. What I am getting at is that this indefensible behaviour/attitude is not characteristic of him as a player/person. That is not necessarily any sort of excuse but I can't help wondering about his state of mind in that specific situation. Why behave like that for England on this single occasion, not do it normally for England and never do it for Exeter? Throw him out and never pick him again is one answer. Fair enough.

But, was the collective preparation of attitude up to scratch? Might someone else act uncharacteristically next?

Even I can say that you do have a tendency to blame Eddie for absolutely everything, but you do wonder if the players are so micro-managed they're just forgetting how to react or think for themselves? I'd have thought Nowell's first instinct there is to chase him, as you say he's got his issues but commitment isn't normally one.

I blame his scrum cap.

[Spiffy]

Sorry, but Nowell not doing what any decent player would do is not down to preparation. For a guy who is pretty lucky to be in the side, he's not showing much nous there. I'd have a go at Eddie for picking him, mind- and other things

I understand your take on it and you have never rated Nowell as an international winger. I don't think you can accuse him of (normally) not thinking, not working his nuts off or not being a team man. Specifically, for Exeter I have seen him run loads of yards fruitlessly in an attempt to make a last-ditch tackle etc. What I am getting at is that this indefensible behaviour/attitude is not characteristic of him as a player/person. That is not necessarily any sort of excuse but I can't help wondering about his state of mind in that specific situation. Why behave like that for England on this single occasion, not do it normally for England and never do it for Exeter? Throw him out and never pick him again is one answer. Fair enough.

But, was the collective preparation of attitude up to scratch? Might someone else act uncharacteristically next?

Even I can say that you do have a tendency to blame Eddie for absolutely everything, but you do wonder if the players are so micro-managed they're just forgetting how to react or think for themselves? I'd have thought Nowell's first instinct there is to chase him, as you say he's got his issues but commitment isn't normally one.

Perhaps Nowell realized he just hadn't the gas for it and didn't want to be shown up in a sprint.

Both he and Youngs should be gone from the squad for good. They bring little and there are better options. Same applies to Farrell, at least as a 12. How silly to keep picking him in that slot - he doesn't even play club rugby there.

[Banquo]

Sorry, but Nowell not doing what any decent player would do is not down to preparation. For a guy who is pretty lucky to be in the side, he's not showing much nous there. I'd have a go at Eddie for picking him, mind- and other things

I understand your take on it and you have never rated Nowell as an international winger. I don't think you can accuse him of (normally) not thinking, not working his nuts off or not being a team man. Specifically, for Exeter I have seen him run loads of yards fruitlessly in an attempt to make a last-ditch tackle etc. What I am getting at is that this indefensible behaviour/attitude is not characteristic of him as a player/person. That is not necessarily any sort of excuse but I can't help wondering about his state of mind in that specific situation. Why behave like that for England on this single occasion, not do it normally for England and never do it for Exeter? Throw him out and never pick him again is one answer. Fair enough.

But, was the collective preparation of attitude up to scratch? Might someone else act uncharacteristically next?

There is no excuse. Zero. You read far too much into tracing a players idiocy back to Jones; he has got a lot wrong for sure, but players being dim and not being even sensible is not down to him, save he picked em.

[Banquo]

What does Farrell actually bring to the team if he doesn’t lead by example and have a high work rate? Other than ice for the post match Woo Woos, obvs.

his kicking from the deck has been good, ironically better than when he was mr golden bollox. But he stinks the place out mostly, and he's an embarrassing skipper and intl 12. But apparently he's tearing up the prem at 10, so....

[Freddo]

Youngs passing has always been pretty weak left to right- in fairness in common with a lot of right handed 9's- tends to pick it up and adjust the ball for a spin pass as well as at least two steps to help with power....but on Sunday he was doing a weird sort of push pass going right. It wasn't pretty. JVP at least when he goes right has only the one step and some good zip on the pass.

On the unstructured/players in the right place, that does take a lot of drills, but more importantly small sided opposed games, so (say) if a player gets caught in a ruck, or has to unexpectedly resource a ruck, then the other players react accordingly. Mind, the basics of support play remain the same- arrowhead around the carrier, keep your depth etc, its just making sure the players are there. If not, communication.
(there's a bit of an irony in calling it unstructured when there is nearly always a 'call' to go with it, and that's what Faz and Youngs spent a lot of time grumbling over)

Interesting explanation as always, thanks. What grates is that Barbarians' teams can look more slick after a few days together. How many caps/training camp days could our lot muster between them? Even Smith can't be regarded as a rookie any more.

This is what really rankles with me. The more time we spend in camp the worse our performances become.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah. Don't make me post the graph again.

[FKAS]

I hadn't noticed Nowell's input on the Carerras try that some of you mentioned earlier, but saw the clip pop up just now and it's not good.



Even with Nowell's pace he absolutely would have stopped Carerras being able to run at 45 degrees away from Steward. Really awful.

Oof. That is not a pretty replay to watch and a straight droppable offence from Nowell.

Farrell I can mildly find excuses for, as he was never in a position to stop Carreras and and argument could be made that he provided more utility in flapping his arms at the referee and protesting in the hope that a whistle would be blown (not that that's a great excuse, but it is something). Nowell on the other hand is probably the only player on the pitch in position to stop Carreras and he just... doesn't. My daughter's U7s are taught to play to the whistle, but he looks at an Argentine running towards his unguarded line and seems to come to the conclusion that it's nothing to do with him.

I don't even know what he's doing in that position in the first place. He's just ambling somewhere. No-one knows where. He's just on a gentle jog. He wasn't even moving to do anything useful in the abortive attack, he was just gently jogging. Perhaps his step count was low on his Fitbit and he's just getting in a quick ramble?

I haven't seen anyone that confused on a rugby pitch since watching [Redacted] wandering about against Australia.

Puja

....nah on Faz, had Carreras been caught, as he should have by a Nowell Steward combo, ad been tackled/had to pass/had to kick then he has a part to play if he gets in the vicinity. Poor.

You could say that about half the England team though. Nowell has got to take that one on his shoulders he's in a prime position to go after Carreras.

[Banquo]

Oof. That is not a pretty replay to watch and a straight droppable offence from Nowell.

Farrell I can mildly find excuses for, as he was never in a position to stop Carreras and and argument could be made that he provided more utility in flapping his arms at the referee and protesting in the hope that a whistle would be blown (not that that's a great excuse, but it is something). Nowell on the other hand is probably the only player on the pitch in position to stop Carreras and he just... doesn't. My daughter's U7s are taught to play to the whistle, but he looks at an Argentine running towards his unguarded line and seems to come to the conclusion that it's nothing to do with him.

I don't even know what he's doing in that position in the first place. He's just ambling somewhere. No-one knows where. He's just on a gentle jog. He wasn't even moving to do anything useful in the abortive attack, he was just gently jogging. Perhaps his step count was low on his Fitbit and he's just getting in a quick ramble?

I haven't seen anyone that confused on a rugby pitch since watching [Redacted] wandering about against Australia.

Puja

....nah on Faz, had Carreras been caught, as he should have by a Nowell Steward combo, ad been tackled/had to pass/had to kick then he has a part to play if he gets in the vicinity. Poor.

You could say that about half the England team though. Nowell has got to take that one on his shoulders he's in a prime position to go after Carreras.

Nowell was a given and responded specifically to Puja's point about Farrell having an 'excuse'.

[Mikey Brown]

Fair enough I guess, he’s owned it at least.

[Banquo]

fair play.

[twitchy]

Good lad.

[Banquo]

Good lad.

should still have been dropped

[twitchy]

Fair.

[Spiffy]

fair play.

Yes. Fair play to Jack for fessing up. Sill, the real point remains that he just doesn't have the gas to overhaul Carreras, though he probably would have provided one side of a pincer movement, with Steward, to make things less easy for him.