RugbyRebels

Yep. Be nice for Tigers to net a cool £2m if England do insist on fucking them over completely and taking their leadership team on one go. Given they'd almost certainly have to go out and hire replacements midway through a season, no doubt hampering results as well I wholeheartedly agree on Pinchen's stance. She has got a reputation for being tough so I'm not surprised.

Hopefully, Borthwick plays hardball in needing those assistants even though the RFU can't afford them, and the RFU go for Robertson instead of Borthwick, and pay a hell of a lot less for (currently) better coaches.

Leicester keep their lot (except Walters), and they're groomed for 2028

Yes please.

I'n not a fan of Borthwick but there is a chance that he could take all the best from Jones in terms of international experience, add it to a pretty comprehensive knowledge of the English club scene and come up with ideas, especially with the right assistants. He is a far better successor than anyone else who might have been groomed for the job by Jones from this point forward, had Jones remained in charge.

Borthwick is renowned for attention to detail and articles by those close to him claim he is warmer and more inspirational than his dour countenance suggests. Puja and FKAS defend his playing style - in terms of varying it with circumstances/opposition.

The big test will be how the players react. I'd guess that the first 20 minutes of his first match in charge will tell us.

Really? I’d suspect an incredibly fired up performance regardless of who/how we’re playing. There’s always a big uptick with a new system and new coaches to impress. That being sustainable and adaptable over the longer term, or at least until the World Cup, will be the interesting part.

I really have no idea if Borthwick would prefer to finesse what he knows already of what EJ has put in place, or wipe the slate clean and try to completely start again with a very short turnaround.

If the ‘Robust Succession Plan’ existed and Jones’s successor has 2/3/4 years until RWC then I’d probably agree Robertson is the better choice but it didn’t and we don’t.
Borthwick has worked in two international setups and been to two world cups, plus he knows the English game inside out*. Robertson, on the other hand… one of the reasons many of us didn’t fancy Baxter for the England job is that he’s only succeeded in one place which, to the best of my knowledge, is the same for Robertson other than the NZ u20 stint.
As a few of us have said, Wayne Smith and Robertson until the World Cup with Robertson moving to the top afterwards? Now we’re talking but it seems highly, highly unlikely. I’d like a Ferrari and a fortnight in the Maldives with Liz Hurley but I know I’ll have to accept a night at a boutique hotel with the long suffering Mrs Mellsblue and a thorough valet of the Passat, which is not as glamorous but is a good, sensible plan, like Borthers.

*might not be a plus as a fresh set of eyes might be a good thing.

I'd go for Robertson myself. I think we need an injection of fresh thinking and to drastically up the intelligence of the team / squad, and also bring in a level of freedom into the mix. The players have been totally constrained (so it appears) under the Jones regime. It looked like the tightness of control got tighter and tighter over the last few years.

This should be the antithesis of Jones. It's not about he next world cup, it is about re-inventing the team.

Though that is a viewpoint as a coach and what I'd like to see England move towards. It far more aligns to what we've been trying to instill in the age grade sides since the days of Brian Ashton, Fletch, Rusty, Walts et al. The prem sides are opening up far more, and age grade sides have for years, and then we beat that shit out of them at the top level. Robertson is more aligned to that mantra.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:47 am I'd go for Robertson myself. I think we need an injection of fresh thinking and to drastically up the intelligence of the team / squad, and also bring in a level of freedom into the mix. The players have been totally constrained (so it appears) under the Jones regime. It looked like the tightness of control got tighter and tighter over the last few years.

This should be the antithesis of Jones. It's not about he next world cup, it is about re-inventing the team.

Though that is a viewpoint as a coach and what I'd like to see England move towards. It far more aligns to what we've been trying to instill in the age grade sides since the days of Brian Ashton, Fletch, Rusty, Walts et al. The prem sides are opening up far more, and age grade sides have for years, and then we beat that shit out of them at the top level. Robertson is more aligned to that mantra.

My worry is that we might be throwing the baby out with the bath water whilst digging a deeper hole if we went for Robertson. The RFU don’t have time for a settling in period, on or off the field.
I think we need to cut our cloth accordingly as much as I think Robertson is the better long term bet. The RFU shat the bed and now we all have to lie in it.

Speaking of the RFU spoiling the bedsheet… this whole mess is the responsibility of the RFU head honchos yet on they go making crucial decisions. They were completely enthral to Jones - overspend by £1mil, endorsements left right and centre, ex-employees and their ndas left right and centre, consultancy gigs on the other side of the world, books criticising current players etc etc - and now they’re struggling to sell tickets and in a shambles ten months from the World Cup. A World Cup they’ve sacrificed two years of results on.
Perhaps a nameless panel needs to review their performance in 12 months?

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:54 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:47 am I'd go for Robertson myself. I think we need an injection of fresh thinking and to drastically up the intelligence of the team / squad, and also bring in a level of freedom into the mix. The players have been totally constrained (so it appears) under the Jones regime. It looked like the tightness of control got tighter and tighter over the last few years.

This should be the antithesis of Jones. It's not about he next world cup, it is about re-inventing the team.

Though that is a viewpoint as a coach and what I'd like to see England move towards. It far more aligns to what we've been trying to instill in the age grade sides since the days of Brian Ashton, Fletch, Rusty, Walts et al. The prem sides are opening up far more, and age grade sides have for years, and then we beat that shit out of them at the top level. Robertson is more aligned to that mantra.

My worry is that we might be throwing the baby out with the bath water whilst digging a deeper hole if we went for Robertson. The RFU don’t have time for a settling in period, on or off the field.
I think we need to cut our cloth accordingly as much as I think Robertson is the better long term bet. The RFU shat the bed and now we all have to lie in it.

I don't think we'd throw that much out. A lot of Robertson's successes are built on very solid core facets (set piece, breakdown, speed of ball) which we can do with these players if there is a clear focus on nail that first. The icing that he applies in the intelligence of play, the skills as trust in theme etc. is built upon a very solid core.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:01 am Speaking of the RFU spoiling the bedsheet… this whole mess is the responsibility of the RFU head honchos yet on they go making crucial decisions. They were completely enthral to Jones - overspend by £1mil, endorsements left right and centre, ex-employees and their ndas left right and centre, consultancy gigs on the other side of the world, books criticising current players etc etc - and now they’re struggling to sell tickets and in a shambles ten months from the World Cup. A World Cup they’ve sacrificed two years of results on.
Perhaps a nameless panel needs to review their performance in 12 months?

Now that's where we do need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. A completely tsunami clear out and start again. Modern rugby people and business people, for it is both.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:01 am Speaking of the RFU spoiling the bedsheet… this whole mess is the responsibility of the RFU head honchos yet on they go making crucial decisions. They were completely enthral to Jones - overspend by £1mil, endorsements left right and centre, ex-employees and their ndas left right and centre, consultancy gigs on the other side of the world, books criticising current players etc etc - and now they’re struggling to sell tickets and in a shambles ten months from the World Cup. A World Cup they’ve sacrificed two years of results on.
Perhaps a nameless panel needs to review their performance in 12 months?

This. Absolutely this.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:01 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:54 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:47 am I'd go for Robertson myself. I think we need an injection of fresh thinking and to drastically up the intelligence of the team / squad, and also bring in a level of freedom into the mix. The players have been totally constrained (so it appears) under the Jones regime. It looked like the tightness of control got tighter and tighter over the last few years.

This should be the antithesis of Jones. It's not about he next world cup, it is about re-inventing the team.

Though that is a viewpoint as a coach and what I'd like to see England move towards. It far more aligns to what we've been trying to instill in the age grade sides since the days of Brian Ashton, Fletch, Rusty, Walts et al. The prem sides are opening up far more, and age grade sides have for years, and then we beat that shit out of them at the top level. Robertson is more aligned to that mantra.

My worry is that we might be throwing the baby out with the bath water whilst digging a deeper hole if we went for Robertson. The RFU don’t have time for a settling in period, on or off the field.
I think we need to cut our cloth accordingly as much as I think Robertson is the better long term bet. The RFU shat the bed and now we all have to lie in it.

I don't think we'd throw that much out. A lot of Robertson's successes are built on very solid core facets (set piece, breakdown, speed of ball) which we can do with these players if there is a clear focus on nail that first. The icing that he applies in the intelligence of play, the skills as trust in theme etc. is built upon a very solid core.

I could get behind that. I just worry that he’d be short of time to implement what he wants and we’d end up with some bastardisation of Jonesball and Robertsonball.

I think any new coach / setup would be given time, and has somewhat of a get out of jail free card, due to where we are, both in terms of performance and also turmoil. It was the RFU that got rid of Jones 9 months out from the RWC and 2 months from the 6 Nations.

They might be given time but I’m not sure there is time. I might be catastrophising but the England team are booed, ticket sales for the 6N are sluggish, the RFU accounts are a mess - with more £mils out the door to replace Jones - and the community game is struggling for numbers.
A successful World Cup is central to remedying all of the above.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:54 am They might be given time but I’m not sure there is time. I might be catastrophising but the England team are booed, ticket sales for the 6N are sluggish, the RFU accounts are a mess - with more £mils out the door to replace Jones - and the community game is struggling for numbers.
A successful World Cup is central to remedying all of the above.

Is 'successful' winning it or perhaps getting to the SF, though? I think most fans would accept a decent selection followed by giving their best with reasonable style. What pisses them off is iffy selection, bad results AND nothing attractive to watch. I'm not talking about champagne Barbarian rugby, just pragmatic, sensible stuff - defend well and go for it, ball in hand, if an opening arises. And, by 'iffy selection' I don't mean not picking my or your favourites, I mean picking a team to ONLY play 'hard to beat' rugby (rather than daring to try to win it).

You are right generally, of course. There has never been a larger disconnect between the RFU/England 'camp' and fans (paying public/grass roots).

I think it was a mistake getting rid of Jones - certainly at this point of time. It all feels a shambles. Now they’ve done it, they are in a rush to get a high quality coach. Without knowing who is really available, rather than saying they are or are not publicly, it’s hard to know what the options are.
I’d be interested if anyone know how many times has Cockerill been around when there have been sudden unexpected changes of the top dog?

I’m hearing Stuart Hooper is now in the mix.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:47 pm I’m hearing Stuart Hooper is now in the mix.

MB, it's December 8, not April 1.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:47 pm I’m hearing Stuart Hooper is now in the mix.

Don't even joke.

Steve Borthwick's inevitable departure from Leicester to take over as England’s head coach has become the subject of a complex club-v-country negotiation which may yet delay his arrival.

The Tigers let it be known they would not stand in the way of the man who oversaw their Premiership title win last season if the RFU made an approach to re-sign him. That has now happened, but Sportsmail understands haggling has started as Leicester seek to maximise their return for the untimely upheaval.

Well-placed sources claim the East Midlands club have demanded compensation of £500,000 for the mid-season release of Borthwick, and the RFU countered with an offer of £200,000. The gulf between the figures is leading to concerns there will be a hold-up before Borthwick can be unveiled as Eddie Jones’s successor.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:29 pm Steve Borthwick's inevitable departure from Leicester to take over as England’s head coach has become the subject of a complex club-v-country negotiation which may yet delay his arrival.

The Tigers let it be known they would not stand in the way of the man who oversaw their Premiership title win last season if the RFU made an approach to re-sign him. That has now happened, but Sportsmail understands haggling has started as Leicester seek to maximise their return for the untimely upheaval.

Well-placed sources claim the East Midlands club have demanded compensation of £500,000 for the mid-season release of Borthwick, and the RFU countered with an offer of £200,000. The gulf between the figures is leading to concerns there will be a hold-up before Borthwick can be unveiled as Eddie Jones’s successor.

I've heard rumours it was a done deal for Borthwick to join up with England at the end of the season. Tigers were apparently scouting for possible replacements. All parties happy.

The RFU now apparently want Borthwick immediately but Tigers aren't very happy about that, for obvious reasons. I suspect a delayed start (6N) and smaller compensation package will be reached.

There's obviously the concern about the assistant coaches as well.

Didn’t someone say it was 2 million earlier?

This is all looking great for Cockerill.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:15 am Hopefully, Borthwick plays hardball in needing those assistants even though the RFU can't afford them, and the RFU go for Robertson instead of Borthwick, and pay a hell of a lot less for (currently) better coaches.

Leicester keep their lot (except Walters), and they're groomed for 2028

yep. £2m is mad. As was firing Eddie without an agreed plan. As Mells said, maybe the RFU need to take a look at itself as well; Bill Sweeney has a great CV in sports management (BOA etc) but seems to have screwed the pooch here.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:58 pm Didn’t someone say it was 2 million earlier?

This is all looking great for Cockerill.

That includes the other staff iirc