RugbyRebels

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:08 am**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:53 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:33 am
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:06 am

Times-

Willis was cut from the England squad on Tuesday, with the fact he plays his club rugby in France a factor in the decision. The former Wasps flanker, 26, moved to Toulouse after his old club went bust and only has managed to train with Steve Borthwick’s England three times over the past ten days.

Willis is a victim of the system. He is eligible for England selection, with the RFU invoking the “exceptional circumstances” ruling for players who are abroad, due to Wasps’ demise. However, as he had to return to Toulouse to face Montpellier in the Top 14 on Sunday night at 9pm, he was only permitted to watch Monday’s training back in Bagshot.

“It has been such a close, tough call for us, we have some unbelievable players in that position,” Kevin Sinfield, the England defence coach, said of their back-row selection.

“Jack is going to be a huge part of us going forward and he is outstanding. Unfortunately we have only had him for three sessions, really, and that has made it difficult with selection for him but he has shown us absolutely what a great player he is.
“I know his situation is tricky at the moment. Hopefully for the next seven or eight weeks we have more opportunity to have him in camp. Then we’ll see.”
I like the way Sinfield talks. It’s like he’s a real human? Positive stuff on Willis too.

I’ve been banging the Ben Curry drum for a while, thought-leader and trend-setter that I am.

Is that largely me being unable to tell the difference except for when Ben does wicked chip kicks? Partly. I don’t think being in rotation at Sale with the backrow stocks they have available is that much of a condemnation either, but fair point on his form having really picked up recently.
In fairness, I did find your Ben Curry drumbeat in March 2022 but Scrumhead shot you down, so I didn't want to bring that trauma back.

What did I say?

I do really rate Ben Curry (and always have) so I imagine it was related to form at the time.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:11 am**

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:55 am If the back row is Ludlam, B Curry, Dombrandt (?) as rumoured will it get the better of the Scottish one?

If that is the back row we pick, then yes, I think it will.

That is based upon two things … 1) having two actual flankers and 2) the Scots being a bit depleted with no Watson or Darge to call on. Ritchie will still be a pain, but whoever is picked out of Crosbie or Christie isn’t as good as Ludlam or Curry IMO.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:16 am**

Who's going to be in the Scotland back row though? Watson and Darge are both injured, so there's a hole on the openside for a start. Ritchie starts at 6, probably Dempsey at 8... is that really any better than Ludlam/Curry/Dombrandt? Not sure IMO. I'd take the Scotland centres and back three over what we're likely to put out, but not the back row personally.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:21 am**

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:16 am Who's going to be in the Scotland back row though? Watson and Darge are both injured, so there's a hole on the openside for a start. Ritchie starts at 6, probably Dempsey at 8... is that really any better than Ludlam/Curry/Dombrandt? Not sure IMO. I'd take the Scotland centres and back three over what we're likely to put out, but not the back row personally.

Back three? Really? Just asking.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:25 am**

Watson played 80 at the weekend. I’m unsure if he should be brought straight back in though. Crosbie has been playing very well (good performances against the SA club sides recently) but is unproven at international level. As is Ben Curry in fairness.

Fagerson is in great form. I’d have him ahead of any England 8 by a distance.

The Scottish backs could well be an absolute mess. I don’t think any of the first choice back three will be fully fit*, with Graham definitely out. Tuipulotu and Harris together has a touch of Tindall and Noon.

*Apparently this is completely wrong, but I guess we’ll see.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:27 am**

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:21 am
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:16 am Who's going to be in the Scotland back row though? Watson and Darge are both injured, so there's a hole on the openside for a start. Ritchie starts at 6, probably Dempsey at 8... is that really any better than Ludlam/Curry/Dombrandt? Not sure IMO. I'd take the Scotland centres and back three over what we're likely to put out, but not the back row personally.
Back three? Really? Just asking.

Van der Merwe and Hogg probably get into an England XV at the moment don't they, given the relative inexperience of our back three options? If Graham was fit it would be no contest.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:35 am**

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:25 am Watson played 80 at the weekend. I’m unsure if he should be brought straight back in though. Crosbie has been playing very well (good performances against the SA club sides recently) but is unproven at international level. As is Ben Curry in fairness.

Fagerson is in great form. I’d have him ahead of any England 8 by a distance.

The Scottish backs could well be an absolute mess. I don’t think any of the first choice back three will be fully fit*, with Graham definitely out. Tuipulotu and Harris together has a touch of Tindall and Noon.

*Apparently this is completely wrong, but I guess we’ll see.

How dare you slander England's greatest ever centre partnership.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:39 am**

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:27 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:21 am
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:16 am Who's going to be in the Scotland back row though? Watson and Darge are both injured, so there's a hole on the openside for a start. Ritchie starts at 6, probably Dempsey at 8... is that really any better than Ludlam/Curry/Dombrandt? Not sure IMO. I'd take the Scotland centres and back three over what we're likely to put out, but not the back row personally.
Back three? Really? Just asking.
Van der Merwe and Hogg probably get into an England XV at the moment don't they, given the relative inexperience of our back three options? If Graham was fit it would be no contest.

I think Steward and Watson would get my votes. OHC is an unknown but, if picked, could easily forge ahead. Others rate Freeman. Arguably too, if fit, Daly would be there or thereabouts (on the wing of course).

You could be right in terms of established units but we haven't seen an English back three under SB yet. For years, our unit has been starved of decent ball.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:42 am**

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:35 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:25 am Watson played 80 at the weekend. I’m unsure if he should be brought straight back in though. Crosbie has been playing very well (good performances against the SA club sides recently) but is unproven at international level. As is Ben Curry in fairness.

Fagerson is in great form. I’d have him ahead of any England 8 by a distance.

The Scottish backs could well be an absolute mess. I don’t think any of the first choice back three will be fully fit*, with Graham definitely out. Tuipulotu and Harris together has a touch of Tindall and Noon.

*Apparently this is completely wrong, but I guess we’ll see.
How dare you slander England's greatest ever centre partnership.

How does it rank with Farrell/Tuilagi? I'd suggest that any decent winger would be hard-pushed to choose, probably just resigning himself to the odd touch in 80 minutes.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:52 am**

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:42 am
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:35 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:25 am Watson played 80 at the weekend. I’m unsure if he should be brought straight back in though. Crosbie has been playing very well (good performances against the SA club sides recently) but is unproven at international level. As is Ben Curry in fairness.

Fagerson is in great form. I’d have him ahead of any England 8 by a distance.

The Scottish backs could well be an absolute mess. I don’t think any of the first choice back three will be fully fit*, with Graham definitely out. Tuipulotu and Harris together has a touch of Tindall and Noon.

*Apparently this is completely wrong, but I guess we’ll see.
How dare you slander England's greatest ever centre partnership.
How does it rank with Farrell/Tuilagi? I'd suggest that any decent winger would be hard-pushed to choose, probably just resigning himself to the odd touch in 80 minutes.

My favourite bad centre partnership was the time Lancaster picked Farrell and Barritt against Samoa, I think back in 2014. He looked genuinely surprised about England not managing a single line break in basically the entire game.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:08 am**

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:08 am
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:53 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:33 am

I like the way Sinfield talks. It’s like he’s a real human? Positive stuff on Willis too.

I’ve been banging the Ben Curry drum for a while, thought-leader and trend-setter that I am.

Is that largely me being unable to tell the difference except for when Ben does wicked chip kicks? Partly. I don’t think being in rotation at Sale with the backrow stocks they have available is that much of a condemnation either, but fair point on his form having really picked up recently.
In fairness, I did find your Ben Curry drumbeat in March 2022 but Scrumhead shot you down, so I didn't want to bring that trauma back.
What did I say?

I do really rate Ben Curry (and always have) so I imagine it was related to form at the time.

It was- he’d had a mediocre season with Sale but injury was a big part of that, plus competing with his brother for a starting slot as Ross was usually tying down 6 iirc.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:09 am**

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:35 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:25 am Watson played 80 at the weekend. I’m unsure if he should be brought straight back in though. Crosbie has been playing very well (good performances against the SA club sides recently) but is unproven at international level. As is Ben Curry in fairness.

Fagerson is in great form. I’d have him ahead of any England 8 by a distance.

The Scottish backs could well be an absolute mess. I don’t think any of the first choice back three will be fully fit*, with Graham definitely out. Tuipulotu and Harris together has a touch of Tindall and Noon.

*Apparently this is completely wrong, but I guess we’ll see.
How dare you slander England's greatest ever centre partnership.

#justice4erinle

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:10 am**

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:27 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:21 am
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:16 am Who's going to be in the Scotland back row though? Watson and Darge are both injured, so there's a hole on the openside for a start. Ritchie starts at 6, probably Dempsey at 8... is that really any better than Ludlam/Curry/Dombrandt? Not sure IMO. I'd take the Scotland centres and back three over what we're likely to put out, but not the back row personally.
Back three? Really? Just asking.
Van der Merwe and Hogg probably get into an England XV at the moment don't they, given the relative inexperience of our back three options? If Graham was fit it would be no contest.

Id take Steward over the current Hogg, and Watson over Van Der Merwe (decent with the ball, average without it).

Obvs both will now play blinders.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:12 am**

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:52 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:42 am
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:35 am

How dare you slander England's greatest ever centre partnership.
How does it rank with Farrell/Tuilagi? I'd suggest that any decent winger would be hard-pushed to choose, probably just resigning himself to the odd touch in 80 minutes.
My favourite bad centre partnership was the time Lancaster picked Farrell and Barritt against Samoa, I think back in 2014. He looked genuinely surprised about England not managing a single line break in basically the entire game.

I’d take Brad Barritt at 12 over Faz in a heartbeat.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:10 pm**

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:09 am
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:35 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:25 am Watson played 80 at the weekend. I’m unsure if he should be brought straight back in though. Crosbie has been playing very well (good performances against the SA club sides recently) but is unproven at international level. As is Ben Curry in fairness.

Fagerson is in great form. I’d have him ahead of any England 8 by a distance.

The Scottish backs could well be an absolute mess. I don’t think any of the first choice back three will be fully fit*, with Graham definitely out. Tuipulotu and Harris together has a touch of Tindall and Noon.

*Apparently this is completely wrong, but I guess we’ll see.
How dare you slander England's greatest ever centre partnership.
#justice4erinle

Erinle and Hipkiss? That one game wonder combo Vs the ABs in 2009.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:45 pm**

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:10 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:09 am
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:35 am

How dare you slander England's greatest ever centre partnership.
#justice4erinle
Erinle and Hipkiss? That one game wonder combo Vs the ABs in 2009.

Yeeesh we did have some interesting centre combos and picks over the post 2003. My bet is that Catt and Tait were possibly the most effective of the lot, although that may be damning with feint praise.

Obviously, and without doubt, the single most talented player was DJ Shape. How we miss his contributions.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:12 am
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:52 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:42 am

How does it rank with Farrell/Tuilagi? I'd suggest that any decent winger would be hard-pushed to choose, probably just resigning himself to the odd touch in 80 minutes.
My favourite bad centre partnership was the time Lancaster picked Farrell and Barritt against Samoa, I think back in 2014. He looked genuinely surprised about England not managing a single line break in basically the entire game.
I’d take Brad Barritt at 12 over Faz in a heartbeat.

I do think Barritt is underrated, both at the time and in retrospect. As long as he wasn't playing 13, he was a very decent international.

Puja

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:06 pm**

Charlie Morgan's reporting Manu to be left out! Smith-Farrell-Marchant midfield, OHC-Steward-Malins back three and Lawrence and Watson both on the bench.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:11 pm**

Looking forward to Faz playing like Esterhuizen for 55 minutes, then morphing in to Carlos Spencer for the remaining 25.

Will be interesting to see how Malins would be used that merits selection ahead of Freeman/Murley/Watson. Presumably more of a secondary fullback/kicker/distributor role in the middle as we might have wanted from Daly? All I can remember of his previous caps are some valiant kick chases, but little else.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:20 pm**

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:06 pm Charlie Morgan's reporting Manu to be left out! Smith-Farrell-Marchant midfield, OHC-Steward-Malins back three and Lawrence and Watson both on the bench.

Borthwick likes playing his cards close to his chest and was not one that appreciated people giving hints away to the media. It'll be interesting to see if the many journos giving opinions have any contacts or are able to guess correctly based purely on what they've been allowed to see if training.

Wouldn't surprise me to see Manu left out, his work rate has improved at Sale but his explosive impact has diminished and he rarely plays more than an hour. Borthwick does talk about selecting the best 80 minute team but he does like high workrate.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:22 pm**

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:11 pm Looking forward to Faz playing like Esterhuizen for 55 minutes, then morphing in to Carlos Spencer for the remaining 25.

Will be interesting to see how Malins would be used that merits selection ahead of Freeman/Murley/Watson. Presumably more of a secondary fullback/kicker/distributor role in the middle as we might have wanted from Daly? All I can remember of his previous caps are some valiant kick chases, but little else.

I suspect Daly was being lined up to play a similar roving playmaker role from the back three and Malins is also comfortable doing the same, although do you really need one if you're going down the dual playmakers at 10 at 12 route? Seems to me Freeman/Murley might've been better picks once Kelly was ruled out.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:46 pm**

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:12 am
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:52 am

My favourite bad centre partnership was the time Lancaster picked Farrell and Barritt against Samoa, I think back in 2014. He looked genuinely surprised about England not managing a single line break in basically the entire game.
I’d take Brad Barritt at 12 over Faz in a heartbeat.
I do think Barritt is underrated, both at the time and in retrospect. As long as he wasn't playing 13, he was a very decent international.

Puja

Absolutely Puja!!! He was immense for Sarries, a rock. Also seemed to be a top bloke

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:50 pm**

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:06 pm Charlie Morgan's reporting Manu to be left out! Smith-Farrell-Marchant midfield, OHC-Steward-Malins back three and Lawrence and Watson both on the bench.

It doesn’t matter what name wears what shirt…….. what was I thinking

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:35 pm**

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:20 pm
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:06 pm Charlie Morgan's reporting Manu to be left out! Smith-Farrell-Marchant midfield, OHC-Steward-Malins back three and Lawrence and Watson both on the bench.
Borthwick likes playing his cards close to his chest and was not one that appreciated people giving hints away to the media. It'll be interesting to see if the many journos giving opinions have any contacts or are able to guess correctly based purely on what they've been allowed to see if training.

Wouldn't surprise me to see Manu left out, his work rate has improved at Sale but his explosive impact has diminished and he rarely plays more than an hour. Borthwick does talk about selecting the best 80 minute team but he does like high workrate.

To be fair Malins had a shocker v Ireland, probably worse than Ewels. However up to that point was good and brought a lot to our play.
That said am surprised to read he is starting.

Also reported LudLAM has be training with BC and Mr Blobby.

Posted: **Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:18 pm**

Insouciant wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:45 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:10 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:09 am
#justice4erinle
Erinle and Hipkiss? That one game wonder combo Vs the ABs in 2009.

Yeeesh we did have some interesting centre combos and picks over the post 2003. My bet is that Catt and Tait were possibly the most effective of the lot, although that may be damning with feint praise.

Obviously, and without doubt, the single most talented player was DJ Shape. How we miss his contributions.

Catt and Tait were both excellent players- the former was very good in an England shirt most of his career, the latter....was very badly used by us.

RugbyRebels

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