Second-guessing Eddie again in taking Ford off, was it to have his club FH with Wig, was it to give T'eo game time at 12, was it to avoid a defensive channel involving Ford and Wig? So, in commenting on the attack shape, as you ask, maybe Eddie wrote off the attacking threat for other reasons. Also, can we really have an attack with Wig at 9?Digby wrote:Get you and your fancy words.Banquo wrote: much lesser extent, Faz has become pivotal on the field as chief shouter and fulcral to our 'finisher' strategy.
Though losing Care would be absolutely fascinating.....Wiggy (Wiggle to others) to start, Nigel Starmer-Smith to bench?
How did people think our attack shape went on Saturday after Ford went off? Or was our attack before and after both so poor and short on possession it's redundant to even ponder?
EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Moderator: Puja
- Oakboy
- Posts: 6630
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:42 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
-
- Posts: 2473
- Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:05 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Mainly your 3rd option there ‘avoid Ford and Wig’, but only because the shape and pattern of the game at that point was that we were just defending and happy to play without the ball. Te’o, particularly at 12, is an excellent defender.
-
- Posts: 15261
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
I think we can have an attack with Wiggle at 9, indeed Eddie is keen on playing off 9, and neither our 9 nor our 10 run the ball much. That said when we play off 9 we tend to have the 9 try to interest/hold defenders, and Wiggle is just going to move the ball out rather than that, so the ball moves quicker/earlier but defenders drift earlier, you takes your pick you makes your choice!
I tend to agree with Banquo though that whilst this was queried ahead of the 6N the actuality of Saturday was so rank it's rendered it difficult to consider. What Saturday did show though is that when the England system doesn't work, as with Ireland last year, we don't seem to have anywhere to go on attack other than the kick game. There is our kicking game Vs Wales was pretty good, though we'd also have to allow the Wales kicking game was just awful.
I tend to agree with Banquo though that whilst this was queried ahead of the 6N the actuality of Saturday was so rank it's rendered it difficult to consider. What Saturday did show though is that when the England system doesn't work, as with Ireland last year, we don't seem to have anywhere to go on attack other than the kick game. There is our kicking game Vs Wales was pretty good, though we'd also have to allow the Wales kicking game was just awful.
-
- Posts: 20287
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Be interested to know what the average number of phases we went through before running out of ideas or getting turned over. Difficult one, I knowDigby wrote:I think we can have an attack with Wiggle at 9, indeed Eddie is keen on playing off 9, and neither our 9 nor our 10 run the ball much. That said when we play off 9 we tend to have the 9 try to interest/hold defenders, and Wiggle is just going to move the ball out rather than that, so the ball moves quicker/earlier but defenders drift earlier, you takes your pick you makes your choice!
I tend to agree with Banquo though that whilst this was queried ahead of the 6N the actuality of Saturday was so rank it's rendered it difficult to consider. What Saturday did show though is that when the England system doesn't work, as with Ireland last year, we don't seem to have anywhere to go on attack other than the kick game. There is our kicking game Vs Wales was pretty good, though we'd also have to allow the Wales kicking game was just awful.
- Mellsblue
- Posts: 15766
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Would Wiggler and Ford ever line up next to each other in defence. Other than in extremis, when systems have gone to pot and it’s just fill a hole with a body, I can’t see it happening.
-
- Posts: 20287
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Waggler and Fordle are a dream team.Mellsblue wrote:Would Wiggler and Ford ever line up next to each other in defence. Other than in extremis, when systems have gone to pot and it’s just fill a hole with a body, I can’t see it happening.
You did have Care and Faz defending next to each other v Italy iirc.
-
- Posts: 15261
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Looking at the 2nd half it went 3, 9, 2, 3, 4, 1, 1, 1, 10, 1, 1, 2,Banquo wrote: Be interested to know what the average number of phases we went through before running out of ideas or getting turned over. Difficult one, I know
1st possession
Wales receive the restart and kick to Mike Brown. England run the ball back in 3 phases, but after that England box kick the ball away on the Welsh 10m line, I suppose the phases were slow but who kicks from there? I suppose Care can cite the ball was allowed to bounce but Wales reclaim possession.
2nd possession
Wales kick to Brown, England run the ball back for 9 phases I think. On the 8th JJ should have setup Watson for a try but made a poor pass
3rd possession
Wales clear after an England handling error, May gathers the ball in and sets 1st phase. Farrell kicks down into coffin corner.
4th possession
Wales make a clearing kick, England gather in their half. May runs up to the Welsh 10m line and sets up 1st phase. England run a 2nd phase and then Care sends a grubber down the touchline into Wales 22
5th possession
Wales clear with Brown gathering into the England half. Brown runs to the Wales 10m and that's phase 1, Itoje carries it on, and then Lawes for a 3rd phase but he's going backwards in contact. Ford kicks the ball down into coffin corner
6th posession
Wales clearance gives England 1st phase ball from a lineout near the Welsh 22. Superstar Owen Farrell has the ball off 1st phase and sees his pass picked off by the Wales defence.
7th possession
Wales have a lineout in England's half courtesy of Dan Cole being an idiot, but Wales can't throw in straight and it's an England free kick and we're back to 1st phase our ball. England kick the ball away
8th possession
Farrell gathers the ball (just) in England's 22 after Shingler makes a break and oddly kicks the ball away. A nice break from Shingler after Itoje runs out of the line and exposes Lawes outside shoulder. Wales pile in like morons and it's an England penalty.
9th possession
England lineout on Wales 22 won by Lawes. England maul, maul goes to floor and we spin the ball out. Wales have more players on the openside than us. Ford makes a cross field kick claimed on the wing by May before he's tackled to floor. We're not really going anywhere but good footwork from JJ puts us back on the front foot. On the 10th phase I think it was (might have been 11) Nowell loses the ball forwards on the floor. Twice in this period of phases Nowell wasn't quite able to move the ball wide before taking contact which is a shame, and it was maybe there for him to keep the ball alive rather than take contact.
10th possession
Wales kick to Mike Brown, Mike kicks it back
11th possession
Mike's kick was a shit one, probably helped him get MoM along with running back uncontested kicks and knocking on a contested kick, but Patchell gives the ball back with an unforced handling error that reminded one of Russell Vs Wales. England kick into the Wales 22.
12th possession
Wales kick badly out of their 22 to Mike, England start to run the phases and are only halted on phase 2 by Nowell going off his feet. A fine effort this from England.
I'm going to stop here, as I'll be upsetting Mells and p/d by dragging up the bad memories of the Italy review. But in the main England look okay when running the ball until coming unstuck by a needless error, or we're kicking the ball to begin with, either as an exit play or for territory. I'm into the 54th minute of the 2nd half and maybe the striking feature is just how many more rucks Wales are having in their half as Wales are playing from much deeper. My memory from Saturday is the game doesn't improve for us from here on in.
- Puja
- Posts: 17749
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:16 pm
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Cameron Redpath trained with England over the weekend, not as an official apprentice, but because they wanted to rest Fazlet and let him recover from his injury. So he was at the open training at Twickenham pretending to be Farrell.
Good news for him as a learning experience and hopefully it will keep him thinking his international future's with England.
Puja
Good news for him as a learning experience and hopefully it will keep him thinking his international future's with England.
Puja
Backist Monk
- Mellsblue
- Posts: 15766
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Ewels, Kruis and Sinckler released back to their clubs.
-
- Posts: 20287
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Hask featuring then, do we think?
I actually thought Kruis looked as sharp and as effective as he has for a while.
I actually thought Kruis looked as sharp and as effective as he has for a while.
-
- Posts: 3868
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:45 pm
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
I assume game time again. He only had, what, 9 mins?Banquo wrote:Hask featuring then, do we think?
I actually thought Kruis looked as sharp and as effective as he has for a while.
Be surprised if there are any changes, in light of the fact we would have beaten Scotland had we played them again 24 hours later.......or so Jones reckoned.
-
- Posts: 15261
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
# Dole 4 Cole (& Hartley)
As obviously a social media campaign would have great affect on Eddie's ongoing support for our front row denizens
As obviously a social media campaign would have great affect on Eddie's ongoing support for our front row denizens
-
- Posts: 2473
- Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:05 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Not sure, Sam Simmonds is apparently fit again.Banquo wrote:Hask featuring then, do we think?
I actually thought Kruis looked as sharp and as effective as he has for a while.
And Henry Slade too.
-
- Posts: 15261
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Andy Goode says he's never seen Owen Farrell fly out of the line as much as on Saturday, and even considers if this was a consequence of handbags in the tunnel
-
- Posts: 3360
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:17 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
The ice man losing his cool??Digby wrote:Andy Goode says he's never seen Owen Farrell fly out of the line as much as on Saturday, and even considers if this was a consequence of handbags in the tunnel
Goodey also wasn't very complementary about Farrell's fly half play when he took over at 10, saying that Farrell was playing like he used to, deep, static and just passing the ball along.
-
- Posts: 15261
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Nick Evans excused Hughes of the missed tackle on Jones and says that was Farrell's tackle to makeRaggs wrote:The ice man losing his cool??Digby wrote:Andy Goode says he's never seen Owen Farrell fly out of the line as much as on Saturday, and even considers if this was a consequence of handbags in the tunnel
Goodey also wasn't very complementary about Farrell's fly half play when he took over at 10, saying that Farrell was playing like he used to, deep, static and just passing the ball along.
-
- Posts: 3360
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:17 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Seen that in a few places, saying Jones was Farrells man, and there was no option outside of him either, so Farrell had no reason not to try and hit him.Digby wrote:Nick Evans excused Hughes of the missed tackle on Jones and says that was Farrell's tackle to makeRaggs wrote:The ice man losing his cool??Digby wrote:Andy Goode says he's never seen Owen Farrell fly out of the line as much as on Saturday, and even considers if this was a consequence of handbags in the tunnel
Goodey also wasn't very complementary about Farrell's fly half play when he took over at 10, saying that Farrell was playing like he used to, deep, static and just passing the ball along.
-
- Posts: 15261
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Ideally he'd have tried to tackle him, but Owen does seem very fond of making shoulder charges/hitsRaggs wrote:Seen that in a few places, saying Jones was Farrells man, and there was no option outside of him either, so Farrell had no reason not to try and hit him.Digby wrote:Nick Evans excused Hughes of the missed tackle on Jones and says that was Farrell's tackle to makeRaggs wrote:
The ice man losing his cool??
Goodey also wasn't very complementary about Farrell's fly half play when he took over at 10, saying that Farrell was playing like he used to, deep, static and just passing the ball along.
-
- Posts: 15261
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:17 am
-
- Posts: 20287
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Kind of confirms a lot of speculation as to his thinking, leading to the way we select and play. It does kind of leave a question mark about a- not reacting to something that was predicted to happen and obvious beforehand is odd, and b- how do you react with that team anyway?
-
- Posts: 20287
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Off topic- but either Eddie is think-skinned....hmm....or this is pretty unpleasant stuff....or he's deflecting from what's really worrying him!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43235314
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43235314
-
- Posts: 3360
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:17 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
It's unpleasant stuff. Someone Eddies age and size would be right to feel intimidated:Banquo wrote:Off topic- but either Eddie is think-skinned....hmm....or this is pretty unpleasant stuff....or he's deflecting from what's really worrying him!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43235314
-
- Posts: 20287
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
what utter twatsRaggs wrote:It's unpleasant stuff. Someone Eddies age and size would be right to feel intimidated:Banquo wrote:Off topic- but either Eddie is think-skinned....hmm....or this is pretty unpleasant stuff....or he's deflecting from what's really worrying him!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43235314
- Mellsblue
- Posts: 15766
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Takes me back to a post match line by Barclay that the Scots hadn’t planned to compete so hard at the break down but after the way ol’ Nige reffed the first handful they changed tack. Yet there we were, as we were against Italy, bumbling around not able to fix the problem. Half of that is lack of mobility and half that is poor leadership on field, as the latter was against Italy. For all Hartley and Farrell are lauded as great leaders - and Farrell is often quoted as being an extra coach - there’s not much leadership on the field in the top two inches.
- Mellsblue
- Posts: 15766
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am
Re: EPS Watch / Player Form Thread
Twats isn’t really harsh enough but yeah.Banquo wrote:what utter twatsRaggs wrote:It's unpleasant stuff. Someone Eddies age and size would be right to feel intimidated:Banquo wrote:Off topic- but either Eddie is think-skinned....hmm....or this is pretty unpleasant stuff....or he's deflecting from what's really worrying him!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43235314