RugbyRebels

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: much lesser extent, Faz has become pivotal on the field as chief shouter and fulcral to our 'finisher' strategy.

Though losing Care would be absolutely fascinating.....Wiggy (Wiggle to others) to start, Nigel Starmer-Smith to bench?

Get you and your fancy words.

How did people think our attack shape went on Saturday after Ford went off? Or was our attack before and after both so poor and short on possession it's redundant to even ponder?

Second-guessing Eddie again in taking Ford off, was it to have his club FH with Wig, was it to give T'eo game time at 12, was it to avoid a defensive channel involving Ford and Wig? So, in commenting on the attack shape, as you ask, maybe Eddie wrote off the attacking threat for other reasons. Also, can we really have an attack with Wig at 9?

Mainly your 3rd option there ‘avoid Ford and Wig’, but only because the shape and pattern of the game at that point was that we were just defending and happy to play without the ball. Te’o, particularly at 12, is an excellent defender.

I think we can have an attack with Wiggle at 9, indeed Eddie is keen on playing off 9, and neither our 9 nor our 10 run the ball much. That said when we play off 9 we tend to have the 9 try to interest/hold defenders, and Wiggle is just going to move the ball out rather than that, so the ball moves quicker/earlier but defenders drift earlier, you takes your pick you makes your choice!

I tend to agree with Banquo though that whilst this was queried ahead of the 6N the actuality of Saturday was so rank it's rendered it difficult to consider. What Saturday did show though is that when the England system doesn't work, as with Ireland last year, we don't seem to have anywhere to go on attack other than the kick game. There is our kicking game Vs Wales was pretty good, though we'd also have to allow the Wales kicking game was just awful.

Digby wrote:I think we can have an attack with Wiggle at 9, indeed Eddie is keen on playing off 9, and neither our 9 nor our 10 run the ball much. That said when we play off 9 we tend to have the 9 try to interest/hold defenders, and Wiggle is just going to move the ball out rather than that, so the ball moves quicker/earlier but defenders drift earlier, you takes your pick you makes your choice!

I tend to agree with Banquo though that whilst this was queried ahead of the 6N the actuality of Saturday was so rank it's rendered it difficult to consider. What Saturday did show though is that when the England system doesn't work, as with Ireland last year, we don't seem to have anywhere to go on attack other than the kick game. There is our kicking game Vs Wales was pretty good, though we'd also have to allow the Wales kicking game was just awful.

Be interested to know what the average number of phases we went through before running out of ideas or getting turned over. Difficult one, I know

Would Wiggler and Ford ever line up next to each other in defence. Other than in extremis, when systems have gone to pot and it’s just fill a hole with a body, I can’t see it happening.

Mellsblue wrote:Would Wiggler and Ford ever line up next to each other in defence. Other than in extremis, when systems have gone to pot and it’s just fill a hole with a body, I can’t see it happening.

Waggler and Fordle are a dream team.

You did have Care and Faz defending next to each other v Italy iirc.

Banquo wrote: Be interested to know what the average number of phases we went through before running out of ideas or getting turned over. Difficult one, I know

Looking at the 2nd half it went 3, 9, 2, 3, 4, 1, 1, 1, 10, 1, 1, 2,

1st possession

Wales receive the restart and kick to Mike Brown. England run the ball back in 3 phases, but after that England box kick the ball away on the Welsh 10m line, I suppose the phases were slow but who kicks from there? I suppose Care can cite the ball was allowed to bounce but Wales reclaim possession.

2nd possession

Wales kick to Brown, England run the ball back for 9 phases I think. On the 8th JJ should have setup Watson for a try but made a poor pass

3rd possession

Wales clear after an England handling error, May gathers the ball in and sets 1st phase. Farrell kicks down into coffin corner.

4th possession

Wales make a clearing kick, England gather in their half. May runs up to the Welsh 10m line and sets up 1st phase. England run a 2nd phase and then Care sends a grubber down the touchline into Wales 22

5th possession

Wales clear with Brown gathering into the England half. Brown runs to the Wales 10m and that's phase 1, Itoje carries it on, and then Lawes for a 3rd phase but he's going backwards in contact. Ford kicks the ball down into coffin corner

6th posession

Wales clearance gives England 1st phase ball from a lineout near the Welsh 22. Superstar Owen Farrell has the ball off 1st phase and sees his pass picked off by the Wales defence.

7th possession

Wales have a lineout in England's half courtesy of Dan Cole being an idiot, but Wales can't throw in straight and it's an England free kick and we're back to 1st phase our ball. England kick the ball away

8th possession

Farrell gathers the ball (just) in England's 22 after Shingler makes a break and oddly kicks the ball away. A nice break from Shingler after Itoje runs out of the line and exposes Lawes outside shoulder. Wales pile in like morons and it's an England penalty.

9th possession

England lineout on Wales 22 won by Lawes. England maul, maul goes to floor and we spin the ball out. Wales have more players on the openside than us. Ford makes a cross field kick claimed on the wing by May before he's tackled to floor. We're not really going anywhere but good footwork from JJ puts us back on the front foot. On the 10th phase I think it was (might have been 11) Nowell loses the ball forwards on the floor. Twice in this period of phases Nowell wasn't quite able to move the ball wide before taking contact which is a shame, and it was maybe there for him to keep the ball alive rather than take contact.

10th possession

Wales kick to Mike Brown, Mike kicks it back

11th possession

Mike's kick was a shit one, probably helped him get MoM along with running back uncontested kicks and knocking on a contested kick, but Patchell gives the ball back with an unforced handling error that reminded one of Russell Vs Wales. England kick into the Wales 22.

12th possession

Wales kick badly out of their 22 to Mike, England start to run the phases and are only halted on phase 2 by Nowell going off his feet. A fine effort this from England.


I'm going to stop here, as I'll be upsetting Mells and p/d by dragging up the bad memories of the Italy review. But in the main England look okay when running the ball until coming unstuck by a needless error, or we're kicking the ball to begin with, either as an exit play or for territory. I'm into the 54th minute of the 2nd half and maybe the striking feature is just how many more rucks Wales are having in their half as Wales are playing from much deeper. My memory from Saturday is the game doesn't improve for us from here on in.

Cameron Redpath trained with England over the weekend, not as an official apprentice, but because they wanted to rest Fazlet and let him recover from his injury. So he was at the open training at Twickenham pretending to be Farrell.

Good news for him as a learning experience and hopefully it will keep him thinking his international future's with England.

Puja

Ewels, Kruis and Sinckler released back to their clubs.

Hask featuring then, do we think?

I actually thought Kruis looked as sharp and as effective as he has for a while.

Banquo wrote:Hask featuring then, do we think?

I actually thought Kruis looked as sharp and as effective as he has for a while.

I assume game time again. He only had, what, 9 mins?

Be surprised if there are any changes, in light of the fact we would have beaten Scotland had we played them again 24 hours later.......or so Jones reckoned.

# Dole 4 Cole (& Hartley)

As obviously a social media campaign would have great affect on Eddie's ongoing support for our front row denizens

Banquo wrote:Hask featuring then, do we think?

I actually thought Kruis looked as sharp and as effective as he has for a while.

Not sure, Sam Simmonds is apparently fit again.

And Henry Slade too.

Andy Goode says he's never seen Owen Farrell fly out of the line as much as on Saturday, and even considers if this was a consequence of handbags in the tunnel

Digby wrote:Andy Goode says he's never seen Owen Farrell fly out of the line as much as on Saturday, and even considers if this was a consequence of handbags in the tunnel

The ice man losing his cool??

Goodey also wasn't very complementary about Farrell's fly half play when he took over at 10, saying that Farrell was playing like he used to, deep, static and just passing the ball along.

Raggs wrote:

Digby wrote:Andy Goode says he's never seen Owen Farrell fly out of the line as much as on Saturday, and even considers if this was a consequence of handbags in the tunnel

The ice man losing his cool??

Goodey also wasn't very complementary about Farrell's fly half play when he took over at 10, saying that Farrell was playing like he used to, deep, static and just passing the ball along.

Nick Evans excused Hughes of the missed tackle on Jones and says that was Farrell's tackle to make

Digby wrote:

Raggs wrote:

Digby wrote:Andy Goode says he's never seen Owen Farrell fly out of the line as much as on Saturday, and even considers if this was a consequence of handbags in the tunnel

The ice man losing his cool??

Goodey also wasn't very complementary about Farrell's fly half play when he took over at 10, saying that Farrell was playing like he used to, deep, static and just passing the ball along.

Nick Evans excused Hughes of the missed tackle on Jones and says that was Farrell's tackle to make

Seen that in a few places, saying Jones was Farrells man, and there was no option outside of him either, so Farrell had no reason not to try and hit him.

Raggs wrote:

Digby wrote:

Raggs wrote:
The ice man losing his cool??

Goodey also wasn't very complementary about Farrell's fly half play when he took over at 10, saying that Farrell was playing like he used to, deep, static and just passing the ball along.

Nick Evans excused Hughes of the missed tackle on Jones and says that was Farrell's tackle to make

Seen that in a few places, saying Jones was Farrells man, and there was no option outside of him either, so Farrell had no reason not to try and hit him.

Ideally he'd have tried to tackle him, but Owen does seem very fond of making shoulder charges/hits

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... ert-kitson

Well worth a read

Digby wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... ert-kitson

Well worth a read

Kind of confirms a lot of speculation as to his thinking, leading to the way we select and play. It does kind of leave a question mark about a- not reacting to something that was predicted to happen and obvious beforehand is odd, and b- how do you react with that team anyway?

Off topic- but either Eddie is think-skinned....hmm....or this is pretty unpleasant stuff....or he's deflecting from what's really worrying him!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43235314

Banquo wrote:Off topic- but either Eddie is think-skinned....hmm....or this is pretty unpleasant stuff....or he's deflecting from what's really worrying him!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43235314

It's unpleasant stuff. Someone Eddies age and size would be right to feel intimidated:

Raggs wrote:

Banquo wrote:Off topic- but either Eddie is think-skinned....hmm....or this is pretty unpleasant stuff....or he's deflecting from what's really worrying him!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43235314

It's unpleasant stuff. Someone Eddies age and size would be right to feel intimidated:

what utter twats

Takes me back to a post match line by Barclay that the Scots hadn’t planned to compete so hard at the break down but after the way ol’ Nige reffed the first handful they changed tack. Yet there we were, as we were against Italy, bumbling around not able to fix the problem. Half of that is lack of mobility and half that is poor leadership on field, as the latter was against Italy. For all Hartley and Farrell are lauded as great leaders - and Farrell is often quoted as being an extra coach - there’s not much leadership on the field in the top two inches.

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:

Banquo wrote:Off topic- but either Eddie is think-skinned....hmm....or this is pretty unpleasant stuff....or he's deflecting from what's really worrying him!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43235314

It's unpleasant stuff. Someone Eddies age and size would be right to feel intimidated:

what utter twats

Twats isn’t really harsh enough but yeah.