RugbyRebels

Mellsblue wrote:

morepork wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Don’t panic. The Czech, Polish and Slovenian PMs have already wasted resources, time and contested airspace to visit Kyiv, as have a couple of the EU big wigs.
You might not be able to hear the mood music in Philly but the UK’s response to this ‘special military operation’ is actually close to, if not the, best in class as far as the Ukrainians and Volodymyr ‘Balls of Steel’ Zelenskyy are concerned:

https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/20 ... s-love-him

‘in a Facebook post, Andriy Sybiha, deputy head of the Ukrainian president’s office said: “The UK is the leader in defence support for Ukraine. The leader in the anti-war coalition. The leader in sanctions against the Russian aggressor.”’
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/en ... 2bd5537e2/

No offense intended. Perhaps I have not heard the mood music. I do see a dick in a blue suit chasing some love online.

No offence taken. You should treat any politicians actions with a healthy dose of scepticism and when it comes to the likes of Boris an unhealthy dose. I just feel that whilst the govt have rightly been given a shed load of bad press over refugees there should also be praise where it’s due. In this case we’ve led on intel, arms and sanctions.

Sandydragon wrote:
Boris needs some positive optics and the Ukraininans need our weaponry. its a match made in convenience.

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
Boris needs some positive optics and the Ukraininans need our weaponry. its a match made in convenience.

Not convinced it’s all about optics - polls are overwhelming in favour of taking in more refugees - just that it’s in his wheelhouse. Covid was about interpreting detail and being cautious, this about being a bit gung-ho, sod the consequences and let’s be positive. He’s also always been very critical of appeasement. Now, if we get into the cagey territory of teetering on the edge of provoking nuclear war we might hope covid has taught him some lessons….

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
Boris needs some positive optics and the Ukraininans need our weaponry. its a match made in convenience.

Not convinced it’s all about optics - polls are overwhelming in favour of taking in more refugees - just that it’s in his wheelhouse. Covid was about interpreting detail and being cautious, this about being a bit gung-ho, sod the consequences and let’s be positive. He’s also always been very critical of appeasement. Now, if we get into the cagey territory of teetering on the edge of provoking nuclear war we might hope covid has taught him some lessons….

Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:What the fuck is he doing??? Why would you waste resources, time, and contested fucking air space for that?

While I have a great amount of disdain for Boris and regard him visiting people as a punishment rather than a boon, Kiev isn't really contested airspace anymore and I'd imagine we've informed the Russians of both his flight path and the repurcussions should they attack his flight. It's not really a big risk like it would've been a fortnight ago.

Puja

morepork wrote:So Boris has good optics while Ukrainian families shelter in basements with their dead. Marvelous.

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Not convinced it’s all about optics - polls are overwhelming in favour of taking in more refugees - just that it’s in his wheelhouse. Covid was about interpreting detail and being cautious, this about being a bit gung-ho, sod the consequences and let’s be positive. He’s also always been very critical of appeasement. Now, if we get into the cagey territory of teetering on the edge of provoking nuclear war we might hope covid has taught him some lessons….

Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

Everything in his previous writings and actions would point to this response but won’t get into an argument about it.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:What the fuck is he doing??? Why would you waste resources, time, and contested fucking air space for that?

While I have a great amount of disdain for Boris and regard him visiting people as a punishment rather than a boon, Kiev isn't really contested airspace anymore and I'd imagine we've informed the Russians of both his flight path and the repurcussions should they attack his flight. It's not really a big risk like it would've been a fortnight ago.

Puja

Agreed it's not the risk it would have been 2 weeks back, but I doubt we let the Russians know anything about it. 1) Boris's death at Russia's hands would have been a massive problem - how would we react exactly? 2) Boris wants to seem brave but he doesn't want to actually increase any risks on his life. 3) If the Russians were informed, why keep the trip secret from us?

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

Everything in his previous writings and actions would point to this response but won’t get into an argument about it.

He wants to be Churchill and if he doesn’t have his own war then he’s quite happy to borrow someone else’s.

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

Everything in his previous writings and actions would point to this response but won’t get into an argument about it.

He wants to be Churchill and if he doesn’t have his own war then he’s quite happy to borrow someone else’s.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:What the fuck is he doing??? Why would you waste resources, time, and contested fucking air space for that?

While I have a great amount of disdain for Boris and regard him visiting people as a punishment rather than a boon, Kiev isn't really contested airspace anymore and I'd imagine we've informed the Russians of both his flight path and the repurcussions should they attack his flight. It's not really a big risk like it would've been a fortnight ago.

Puja

Agreed it's not the risk it would have been 2 weeks back, but I doubt we let the Russians know anything about it. 1) Boris's death at Russia's hands would have been a massive problem - how would we react exactly? 2) Boris wants to seem brave but he doesn't want to actually increase any risks on his life. 3) If the Russians were informed, why keep the trip secret from us?

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Everything in his previous writings and actions would point to this response but won’t get into an argument about it.

He wants to be Churchill and if he doesn’t have his own war then he’s quite happy to borrow someone else’s.

I suppose we can only hope that Macron, Scholz and Dragi look to borrow someone else’s war, too.

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
He wants to be Churchill and if he doesn’t have his own war then he’s quite happy to borrow someone else’s.

I suppose we can only hope that Macron, Scholz and Dragi look to borrow someone else’s war, too.

It would be great if they did. I think you’re missing my point. I agree with what Johnson is doing. But I think his motives for the full throttle support of Ukraine are as much to do with his own desire to appear Churchillian as they are out of sound strategic judgement. And this is a spin doctors dream to avoid attention on partygate. So right actions but I’m curious about the motives.

Puja wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Puja wrote:
While I have a great amount of disdain for Boris and regard him visiting people as a punishment rather than a boon, Kiev isn't really contested airspace anymore and I'd imagine we've informed the Russians of both his flight path and the repurcussions should they attack his flight. It's not really a big risk like it would've been a fortnight ago.

Puja

Agreed it's not the risk it would have been 2 weeks back, but I doubt we let the Russians know anything about it. 1) Boris's death at Russia's hands would have been a massive problem - how would we react exactly? 2) Boris wants to seem brave but he doesn't want to actually increase any risks on his life. 3) If the Russians were informed, why keep the trip secret from us?

If he had flown, then I suspect we would've informed the Russians of his flight path, as it would've removed any chance of him being accidentally shot down with the Russians saying, "We didn't know; we thought it was a Nazi bomber." Inform them with a paper trail and they've got a vested interest in keeping him safe - while I'd give them a bunch of flowers, there's a very good chance that NATO would take the killing of a state leader as an act of war.
As he went by car, the whole thing is moot anyway.

Puja

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

morepork wrote:So Boris has good optics while Ukrainian families shelter in basements with their dead. Marvelous.

Never let a good war go to waste. Also, anything that keeps Johnson away from UK journalists asking questions about literally anything happening in the UK can only be good for his career.

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
Boris needs some positive optics and the Ukraininans need our weaponry. its a match made in convenience.

Not convinced it’s all about optics - polls are overwhelming in favour of taking in more refugees - just that it’s in his wheelhouse. Covid was about interpreting detail and being cautious, this about being a bit gung-ho, sod the consequences and let’s be positive. He’s also always been very critical of appeasement. Now, if we get into the cagey territory of teetering on the edge of provoking nuclear war we might hope covid has taught him some lessons….

Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

kk67 wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Not convinced it’s all about optics - polls are overwhelming in favour of taking in more refugees - just that it’s in his wheelhouse. Covid was about interpreting detail and being cautious, this about being a bit gung-ho, sod the consequences and let’s be positive. He’s also always been very critical of appeasement. Now, if we get into the cagey territory of teetering on the edge of provoking nuclear war we might hope covid has taught him some lessons….

Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

I think you're both right.

Fecking hell, I despise the 1922 committee. They are the epitome of all that is wrong with the UK. Total scum.

Sandydragon wrote:Apparently, the Russians are upset because Ukrainian fires have hit targets inside Russia. I must be misunderstanding their logic somewhere along the line.

Puja wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Apparently, the Russians are upset because Ukrainian fires have hit targets inside Russia. I must be misunderstanding their logic somewhere along the line.

Yeah, that puzzled me somewhat as well. Outraged at Ukraine's temerity to... {checks notes} "attack a neighbouring country's sovereign territory". How dare they. Entirely without precedent.

Puja

Sandydragon wrote:

Puja wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Apparently, the Russians are upset because Ukrainian fires have hit targets inside Russia. I must be misunderstanding their logic somewhere along the line.

Yeah, that puzzled me somewhat as well. Outraged at Ukraine's temerity to... {checks notes} "attack a neighbouring country's sovereign territory". How dare they. Entirely without precedent.

Puja

And there was me thinking that a few weeks ago the Russians were claiming that Ukraine didn’t really exist but was really part of Russia all along. So how can Ukraine have attacked a neighbouring country if they are actually part of Russia? Russian propaganda having a few logic issues.

And on another one I wouldn’t blame Ukraine if they decided to send a few rockets into Belarus. At the very least those Russian forces in Belarus must be fair game