Autumn International Squad

[Mikey Brown]

I don’t feel like that’s ‘the real point’ at all, to be honest. I know we joke about Nowell being slow but you must be confusing him for a prop if you think he wouldn’t easily close the gap (in combination with Steward) so Carreras couldn’t just run sideways.

[Spiffy]

I don’t feel like that’s ‘the real point’ at all, to be honest. I know we joke about Nowell being slow but you must be confusing him for a prop if you think he wouldn’t easily close the gap (in combination with Steward) so Carreras couldn’t just run sideways.

Well that was my point about the pincer movement to limit Carreras' space. But a top, fast, international wing would have had the possibility to actually catch him and make the tackle. It was interesting to note that Steward seemed to have more speed than many thought (self included) . Carreras was not opening the gap on him and Steward managed to get close enough to make a last ditch attempt at a tackle.
It's all a bit academic now anyway and I still think Nowell should not be in the team given the alternatives available to Jones. But he seems undropable.

[Banquo]

I don’t feel like that’s ‘the real point’ at all, to be honest. I know we joke about Nowell being slow but you must be confusing him for a prop if you think he wouldn’t easily close the gap (in combination with Steward) so Carreras couldn’t just run sideways.

Well that was my point about the pincer movement to limit Carreras' space. But a top, fast, international wing would have had the possibility to actually catch him and make the tackle. It was interesting to note that Steward seemed to have more speed than many thought (self included) . Carreras was not opening the gap on him and Steward managed to get close enough to make a last ditch attempt at a tackle.
It's all a bit academic now anyway and I still think Nowell should not be in the team given the alternatives available to Jones. But he seems undropable.

Hmm not sure about Steward having surprising pace there- carrying a ball always slows you down markedly and most 10’s don’t have sustained pace either. In fairness I have no idea how quick Carreras really is.

[Danno]

I don’t feel like that’s ‘the real point’ at all, to be honest. I know we joke about Nowell being slow but you must be confusing him for a prop if you think he wouldn’t easily close the gap (in combination with Steward) so Carreras couldn’t just run sideways.

Well that was my point about the pincer movement to limit Carreras' space. But a top, fast, international wing would have had the possibility to actually catch him and make the tackle. It was interesting to note that Steward seemed to have more speed than many thought (self included) . Carreras was not opening the gap on him and Steward managed to get close enough to make a last ditch attempt at a tackle.
It's all a bit academic now anyway and I still think Nowell should not be in the team given the alternatives available to Jones. But he seems undropable.

Hmm not sure about Steward having surprising pace there- carrying a ball always slows you down markedly and most 10’s don’t have sustained pace either. In fairness I have no idea how quick Carreras really is.

True, but Steward had to react and then turn by which point Carreras is already getting up to full tilt. I was impressed at the time.

[Timbo]

I don’t feel like that’s ‘the real point’ at all, to be honest. I know we joke about Nowell being slow but you must be confusing him for a prop if you think he wouldn’t easily close the gap (in combination with Steward) so Carreras couldn’t just run sideways.

Well that was my point about the pincer movement to limit Carreras' space. But a top, fast, international wing would have had the possibility to actually catch him and make the tackle. It was interesting to note that Steward seemed to have more speed than many thought (self included) . Carreras was not opening the gap on him and Steward managed to get close enough to make a last ditch attempt at a tackle.
It's all a bit academic now anyway and I still think Nowell should not be in the team given the alternatives available to Jones. But he seems undropable.

Hmm not sure about Steward having surprising pace there- carrying a ball always slows you down markedly and most 10’s don’t have sustained pace either. In fairness I have no idea how quick Carreras really is.

Carreras is more often seen on the wing or at fullback. Only started playing at 10 for Argentina in the last year or so.

[Spiffy]

I don’t feel like that’s ‘the real point’ at all, to be honest. I know we joke about Nowell being slow but you must be confusing him for a prop if you think he wouldn’t easily close the gap (in combination with Steward) so Carreras couldn’t just run sideways.

Well that was my point about the pincer movement to limit Carreras' space. But a top, fast, international wing would have had the possibility to actually catch him and make the tackle. It was interesting to note that Steward seemed to have more speed than many thought (self included) . Carreras was not opening the gap on him and Steward managed to get close enough to make a last ditch attempt at a tackle.
It's all a bit academic now anyway and I still think Nowell should not be in the team given the alternatives available to Jones. But he seems undropable.

Hmm not sure about Steward having surprising pace there- carrying a ball always slows you down markedly and most 10’s don’t have sustained pace either. In fairness I have no idea how quick Carreras really is.

Carreras has played a fair bit on the wing for Gloucester and has looked pretty nippy to me.
I am not calling Steward a flier, but he has a great long stride that eats up the ground and may make him look slower than he really is.
In that respect he reminds me of the very tall Springbok wing of about 15-20 years ago, Pieter Roussow, who appeared to lope along at a gentle pace but was really moving.

EDIT : I am not claiming that Steward is as fast as he was, just talking about running style.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I had exactly the same thought. I would have thought Carreras would leave him flailing, even carrying the ball.

[Spiffy]

Yeah I had exactly the same thought. I would have thought Carreras would leave him flailing, even carrying the ball.

I think that carrying the ball slows a player down marginally, but perhaps not as significantly as Banquo states above. Otherwise, given two players of equal pace (say two good international quality wings), starting off from the same spot, the non carrier would always catch the carrier. Of course the counter to that (before B has the baws off me) is that no two are really of equal pace to start with so it's all a toss up.
Carrying in two hands, when looking to make some kind of play, will slow you down a hell of a lot more than tucking it under one arm.

[Mellsblue]

Well that was my point about the pincer movement to limit Carreras' space. But a top, fast, international wing would have had the possibility to actually catch him and make the tackle. It was interesting to note that Steward seemed to have more speed than many thought (self included) . Carreras was not opening the gap on him and Steward managed to get close enough to make a last ditch attempt at a tackle.
It's all a bit academic now anyway and I still think Nowell should not be in the team given the alternatives available to Jones. But he seems undropable.

Hmm not sure about Steward having surprising pace there- carrying a ball always slows you down markedly and most 10’s don’t have sustained pace either. In fairness I have no idea how quick Carreras really is.

True, but Steward had to react and then turn by which point Carreras is already getting up to full tilt. I was impressed at the time.

If you look at the stills posted earlier under which Nowell has his mea culpa, Steward is turned and working back before Carreras even picks up the ball.
Is Carreras considered a fast winger? The whole he’s normally a winger so he must be lightning argument is undermined by the two players playing on the wing for England.

[p/d]

It’s all ok. Faz has urged his side to free themselves from the fear of committing errors.

That does explain our low error count

[Puja]

Hmm not sure about Steward having surprising pace there- carrying a ball always slows you down markedly and most 10’s don’t have sustained pace either. In fairness I have no idea how quick Carreras really is.

True, but Steward had to react and then turn by which point Carreras is already getting up to full tilt. I was impressed at the time.

If you look at the stills posted earlier under which Nowell has his mea culpa, Steward is turned and working back before Carreras even picks up the ball.
Is Carreras considered a fast winger? The whole he’s normally a winger so he must be lightning argument is undermined by the two players playing on the wing for England.

He is considered a fast winger, yes. And while Steward is moving first, he is also having to work across from the other side of the pitch.

It's definitely a higher speed than I think a lot of people expected of Steward. Clearly something he's been working on.

Puja

[Oakboy]

It’s all ok. Faz has urged his side to free themselves from the fear of committing errors.

That does explain our low error count

Oddly enough, I agree with Farrell (did I really type that?). Although Banquo and others pillory me for blaming everything on Jones, I think the whole (apparent) mindset is wrong. Self-belief is missing. Go back to Notts Forest under Clough and think of him winning Div 1 and the European Cup with some players rejected by other clubs as failures (Lloyd, McGovern) or disciplinary liabilities (Burns). Inspirational management can make a difference. Fear of failure has to be a non-starter.

The players need to be freed to give their best with proper preparation. Fear of making a mistake, if that is the emphasis, just makes players jittery and unwilling to try anything.

[Mellsblue]

True, but Steward had to react and then turn by which point Carreras is already getting up to full tilt. I was impressed at the time.

If you look at the stills posted earlier under which Nowell has his mea culpa, Steward is turned and working back before Carreras even picks up the ball.
Is Carreras considered a fast winger? The whole he’s normally a winger so he must be lightning argument is undermined by the two players playing on the wing for England.

He is considered a fast winger, yes. And while Steward is moving first, he is also having to work across from the other side of the pitch.

It's definitely a higher speed than I think a lot of people expected of Steward. Clearly something he's been working on.

Puja

Steward has turned and in to his running stride before Carreras has even picked up the ball. It’s a significant head start. If it’s not, then we should no longer consider Carreras as a fast winger. Steward has many qualities but pace isn’t one of them.

[Puja]

If you look at the stills posted earlier under which Nowell has his mea culpa, Steward is turned and working back before Carreras even picks up the ball.
Is Carreras considered a fast winger? The whole he’s normally a winger so he must be lightning argument is undermined by the two players playing on the wing for England.

He is considered a fast winger, yes. And while Steward is moving first, he is also having to work across from the other side of the pitch.

It's definitely a higher speed than I think a lot of people expected of Steward. Clearly something he's been working on.

Puja

Steward has turned and in to his running stride before Carreras has even picked up the ball. It’s a significant head start. If it’s not, then we should no longer consider Carreras as a fast winger. Steward has many qualities but pace isn’t one of them.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making here, so I'm reluctant to try and argue it!

Regardless of starting point, head starts, and angles, when they are both in full flight, Steward is keeping pace and then gaining on Carreras, forcing him wide to evade him. It seems bizarre to say "pace isn't one of Steward's qualities" when he's just demonstrated some pretty solid pace. Is it not more sensible to reassess our understanding of Steward's top-end speed (and praise him for clearly developing a weakness) than to look for reasons to downgrade Carreras?

Puja

[Banquo]

Well that was my point about the pincer movement to limit Carreras' space. But a top, fast, international wing would have had the possibility to actually catch him and make the tackle. It was interesting to note that Steward seemed to have more speed than many thought (self included) . Carreras was not opening the gap on him and Steward managed to get close enough to make a last ditch attempt at a tackle.
It's all a bit academic now anyway and I still think Nowell should not be in the team given the alternatives available to Jones. But he seems undropable.

Hmm not sure about Steward having surprising pace there- carrying a ball always slows you down markedly and most 10’s don’t have sustained pace either. In fairness I have no idea how quick Carreras really is.

Carreras is more often seen on the wing or at fullback. Only started playing at 10 for Argentina in the last year or so.

Fair enough. Decent chase then.

[Mikey Brown]

He is considered a fast winger, yes. And while Steward is moving first, he is also having to work across from the other side of the pitch.

It's definitely a higher speed than I think a lot of people expected of Steward. Clearly something he's been working on.

Puja

Steward has turned and in to his running stride before Carreras has even picked up the ball. It’s a significant head start. If it’s not, then we should no longer consider Carreras as a fast winger. Steward has many qualities but pace isn’t one of them.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making here, so I'm reluctant to try and argue it!

Regardless of starting point, head starts, and angles, when they are both in full flight, Steward is keeping pace and then gaining on Carreras, forcing him wide to evade him. It seems bizarre to say "pace isn't one of Steward's qualities" when he's just demonstrated some pretty solid pace. Is it not more sensible to reassess our understanding of Steward's top-end speed (and praise him for clearly developing a weakness) than to look for reasons to downgrade Carreras?

Puja

I really enjoy the activity that internationals bring to the board, and how as the meaningful discussion dries up in the week you reach a point where you have people saying they were impressed by something only to be told that no, they were in fact not impressed at all.

I feel like pace not historically being one of Steward’s qualities is the whole basic of people saying they were impressed with his speed. It doesn’t make me want to shift him to the wing or anything, but it’s nice to see.

[Mellsblue]

He is considered a fast winger, yes. And while Steward is moving first, he is also having to work across from the other side of the pitch.

It's definitely a higher speed than I think a lot of people expected of Steward. Clearly something he's been working on.

Puja

Steward has turned and in to his running stride before Carreras has even picked up the ball. It’s a significant head start. If it’s not, then we should no longer consider Carreras as a fast winger. Steward has many qualities but pace isn’t one of them.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making here, so I'm reluctant to try and argue it!

Regardless of starting point, head starts, and angles, when they are both in full flight, Steward is keeping pace and then gaining on Carreras, forcing him wide to evade him. It seems bizarre to say "pace isn't one of Steward's qualities" when he's just demonstrated some pretty solid pace. Is it not more sensible to reassess our understanding of Steward's top-end speed (and praise him for clearly developing a weakness) than to look for reasons to downgrade Carreras?

Puja

You do understand my point you just disagree. Steward isn’t fast for a back three player, there’s an abundance of evidence for that. Whether he’s faster than he was a year ago none of us know, but kudos if he is. There’s plenty of anecdotal evidence he’s a hard worker so, given pace is probably his biggest weakness, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s improved on that area. That said, seeing one instance with numerous variables of him keeping pace with one winger isn’t really much of an evidence base to say he’s now as quick as a fast winger. Are we saying Matt Mullan is faster than James Hook:


or Lawes is faster than Tulisa from N Dubs:



This example is actually a good indicator of how much ground someone already in stride can make up when his quarry is stumbling/stooping, despite a perceived inferior angle.

I’d also argue that once they’re both at full flight Carreras is pulling away slightly despite carrying the ball.
The only way we’ll truly know is to stick both of them, plus a selection of players of various speeds, on the try line and see the time it takes them to sprint to the halfway line.

[Mellsblue]

Steward has turned and in to his running stride before Carreras has even picked up the ball. It’s a significant head start. If it’s not, then we should no longer consider Carreras as a fast winger. Steward has many qualities but pace isn’t one of them.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making here, so I'm reluctant to try and argue it!

Regardless of starting point, head starts, and angles, when they are both in full flight, Steward is keeping pace and then gaining on Carreras, forcing him wide to evade him. It seems bizarre to say "pace isn't one of Steward's qualities" when he's just demonstrated some pretty solid pace. Is it not more sensible to reassess our understanding of Steward's top-end speed (and praise him for clearly developing a weakness) than to look for reasons to downgrade Carreras?

Puja

I really enjoy the activity that internationals bring to the board, and how as the meaningful discussion dries up in the week you reach a point where you have people saying they were impressed by something only to be told that no, they were in fact not impressed at all.

I feel like pace not historically being one of Steward’s qualities is the whole basic of people saying they were impressed with his speed. It doesn’t make me want to shift him to the wing or anything, but it’s nice to see.

I’m happy for people to be impressed. I just they’re drawing the wrong conclusion. Would love to be wrong as if Steward is now as quick as a fast winger he’s almost the complete package.

[Banquo]

Steward has turned and in to his running stride before Carreras has even picked up the ball. It’s a significant head start. If it’s not, then we should no longer consider Carreras as a fast winger. Steward has many qualities but pace isn’t one of them.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making here, so I'm reluctant to try and argue it!

Regardless of starting point, head starts, and angles, when they are both in full flight, Steward is keeping pace and then gaining on Carreras, forcing him wide to evade him. It seems bizarre to say "pace isn't one of Steward's qualities" when he's just demonstrated some pretty solid pace. Is it not more sensible to reassess our understanding of Steward's top-end speed (and praise him for clearly developing a weakness) than to look for reasons to downgrade Carreras?

Puja

I really enjoy the activity that internationals bring to the board, and how as the meaningful discussion dries up in the week you reach a point where you have people saying they were impressed by something only to be told that no, they were in fact not impressed at all.

I feel like pace not historically being one of Steward’s qualities is the whole basic of people saying they were impressed with his speed. It doesn’t make me want to shift him to the wing or anything, but it’s nice to see.

I reserve the right to say I’m not impressed even if someone else is. Peak RR

[Mikey Brown]

I'm not quite sure what point you're making here, so I'm reluctant to try and argue it!

Regardless of starting point, head starts, and angles, when they are both in full flight, Steward is keeping pace and then gaining on Carreras, forcing him wide to evade him. It seems bizarre to say "pace isn't one of Steward's qualities" when he's just demonstrated some pretty solid pace. Is it not more sensible to reassess our understanding of Steward's top-end speed (and praise him for clearly developing a weakness) than to look for reasons to downgrade Carreras?

Puja

I really enjoy the activity that internationals bring to the board, and how as the meaningful discussion dries up in the week you reach a point where you have people saying they were impressed by something only to be told that no, they were in fact not impressed at all.

I feel like pace not historically being one of Steward’s qualities is the whole basic of people saying they were impressed with his speed. It doesn’t make me want to shift him to the wing or anything, but it’s nice to see.

I reserve the right to say I’m not impressed even if someone else is. Peak RR

Well sure. My point was it’s all relative. If that had been LRZ chasing I would have been very impressed with Carreras getting away.

It seems to have turned in to a discussion to settle whether Steward is in fact absolutely rapid, rather than some people just being pleasantly surprised by his top end speed. Carreras was just the only available player to make a comparison with, and I’d still back him over either short/long distance.

[Puja]

Steward has turned and in to his running stride before Carreras has even picked up the ball. It’s a significant head start. If it’s not, then we should no longer consider Carreras as a fast winger. Steward has many qualities but pace isn’t one of them.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making here, so I'm reluctant to try and argue it!

Regardless of starting point, head starts, and angles, when they are both in full flight, Steward is keeping pace and then gaining on Carreras, forcing him wide to evade him. It seems bizarre to say "pace isn't one of Steward's qualities" when he's just demonstrated some pretty solid pace. Is it not more sensible to reassess our understanding of Steward's top-end speed (and praise him for clearly developing a weakness) than to look for reasons to downgrade Carreras?

Puja

You do understand my point you just disagree. Steward isn’t fast for a back three player, there’s an abundance of evidence for that. Whether he’s faster than he was a year ago none of us know, but kudos if he is. There’s plenty of anecdotal evidence he’s a hard worker so, given pace is probably his biggest weakness, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s improved on that area. That said, seeing one instance with numerous variables of him keeping pace with one winger isn’t really much of an evidence base to say he’s now as quick as a fast winger. Are we saying Matt Mullan is faster than James Hook:


or Lawes is faster than Tulisa from N Dubs:



This example is actually a good indicator of how much ground someone already in stride can make up when his quarry is stumbling/stooping, despite a perceived inferior angle.

I’d also argue that once they’re both at full flight Carreras is pulling away slightly despite carrying the ball.
The only way we’ll truly know is to stick both of them, plus a selection of players of various speeds, on the try line and see the time it takes them to sprint to the halfway line.

Yeah, I think we're absolutely both arguing cases that are just slightly to the left of each other rather than opposing. I'm not looking to argue that Steward is "fast for a back three player" or that he's faster than Carreras in general. He has advantages of not carrying the ball and also being able to see his man to chase him down. I also acknowledge that you are absolutely correct that he reacts first and Carreras has to pick up the ball. In a straight sprint, I'd suspect Carreras would win every time.

I'm pretty much just saying that Steward's faster than I thought he was and faster than I have previously seen him to be, as he actually caught and tackled a winger (yes, without stopping the try, but he still got there). By reputation and by history ("the abundance of evidence"), he is considered actively slow for a back three player, but the fact that he was able to broadly keep pace and force Carreras wider suggests that he shouldn't be considered slow for a back three. Not evidence that he should be considered fast for a back three player either (or that he should play on the fucking wing either, if Eddie's listening), but that pace should perhaps no longer be considered a flaw of his, even if it can't yet be considered a strength.

Also, your last suggestion makes me think of pre-season training and so I hate both it and you.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Consensus reigns on RR. Musk and Zuckerberg will have woken suddenly from their sleep with a deep, but unplaceable, sense of foreboding.

[Which Tyler]

Just read this last page...
Slow news day huh?

[Timbo]

Really not all that surprised that Steward has reasonable speed over slightly longer distances. Think that’s always been evident. It’s more lateral speed, acceleration from walk/standing etc that he’s struggled a bit with.

Opposite is true of Nowell.

[Danno]

(or that he should play on the fucking wing either, if Eddie's listening)

You've gone and monkey pawed it.