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Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:19 pm
by Oakboy
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:46 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:12 am
I’d take Brad Barritt at 12 over Faz in a heartbeat.
I do think Barritt is underrated, both at the time and in retrospect. As long as he wasn't playing 13, he was a very decent international.
Puja
Absolutely Puja!!! He was immense for Sarries, a rock. Also seemed to be a top bloke
I did not appreciate Barritt's contribution at the time. Having watched Farrell at 12 so many times since, I now hold my hands up in apology.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:19 pm
by Banquo
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:12 am
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:52 am
My favourite bad centre partnership was the time Lancaster picked Farrell and Barritt against Samoa, I think back in 2014. He looked genuinely surprised about England not managing a single line break in basically the entire game.
I’d take Brad Barritt at 12 over Faz in a heartbeat.
I do think Barritt is underrated, both at the time and in retrospect. As long as he wasn't playing 13, he was a very decent international.
Puja
perzackly...or more pertinently, 13 outside some useless 12's- Farrell and Burgess spring to mind funnily enough.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:20 pm
by Banquo
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:06 pm
Charlie Morgan's reporting Manu to be left out! Smith-Farrell-Marchant midfield, OHC-Steward-Malins back three and Lawrence and Watson both on the bench.
I really hope not. Lightweight and ill balanced imo.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:22 pm
by Banquo
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:22 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:11 pm
Looking forward to Faz playing like Esterhuizen for 55 minutes, then morphing in to Carlos Spencer for the remaining 25.
Will be interesting to see how Malins would be used that merits selection ahead of Freeman/Murley/Watson. Presumably more of a secondary fullback/kicker/distributor role in the middle as we might have wanted from Daly? All I can remember of his previous caps are some valiant kick chases, but little else.
I suspect Daly was being lined up to play a similar roving playmaker role from the back three and Malins is also comfortable doing the same, although do you really need one if you're going down the dual playmakers at 10 at 12 route? Seems to me Freeman/Murley might've been better picks once Kelly was ruled out.
Have to say I've never seen Malins come off the wing and do that, though I guess he could. To me, he's always looked scared at this level.
Smith/Faz and that back three, if true, doesn't look right.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:23 pm
by Tom Moore
Worst overall I think was Noon, Big Faz and Catt vs South Africa in 2007 RWC pool stage. The day we were, according to the coach, "... mix and match at 10."
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:24 pm
by Banquo
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:35 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:20 pm
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:06 pm
Charlie Morgan's reporting Manu to be left out! Smith-Farrell-Marchant midfield, OHC-Steward-Malins back three and Lawrence and Watson both on the bench.
Borthwick likes playing his cards close to his chest and was not one that appreciated people giving hints away to the media. It'll be interesting to see if the many journos giving opinions have any contacts or are able to guess correctly based purely on what they've been allowed to see if training.
Wouldn't surprise me to see Manu left out, his work rate has improved at Sale but his explosive impact has diminished and he rarely plays more than an hour. Borthwick does talk about selecting the best 80 minute team but he does like high workrate.
To be fair Malins had a shocker v Ireland, probably worse than Ewels. However up to that point was good and brought a lot to our play.
That said am surprised to read he is starting.
Also reported LudLAM has be training with BC and Mr Blobby.
Malins was also shockingly bad v Wales. Looked utterly out of his depth- I watched him closely as was at the game, and he was a rabbit in the headlights.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:27 pm
by Banquo
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:19 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:46 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 pm
I do think Barritt is underrated, both at the time and in retrospect. As long as he wasn't playing 13, he was a very decent international.
Puja
Absolutely Puja!!! He was immense for Sarries, a rock. Also seemed to be a top bloke
I did not appreciate Barritt's contribution at the time. Having watched Farrell at 12 so many times since, I now hold my hands up in apology.
My work here with you has been utterly wasted; I've tried so hard to point to how useful a 'just get over the gainline, top defending 12' is (vs shoehorning iffy 10's in there with our obsession over a dual receiver 10/12)....and yet only now......Barritt also had a half decent offload and kicking game tbh. But he wasn't quick or fashionable at the time.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:29 pm
by Banquo
Tom Moore wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:23 pm
Worst overall I think was Noon, Big Faz and Catt vs South Africa in 2007 RWC pool stage. The day we were, according to the coach, "... mix and match at 10."
Brian Ashton was a great backs coach. Til then. He was trying to get the wrong players to play 'total rugby'....
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:37 pm
by SDHoneymonster
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:27 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:19 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:46 pm
Absolutely Puja!!! He was immense for Sarries, a rock. Also seemed to be a top bloke
I did not appreciate Barritt's contribution at the time. Having watched Farrell at 12 so many times since, I now hold my hands up in apology.
My work here with you has been utterly wasted; I've tried so hard to point to how useful a 'just get over the gainline, top defending 12' is (vs shoehorning iffy 10's in there with our obsession over a dual receiver 10/12)....and yet only now......Barritt also had a half decent offload and kicking game tbh. But he wasn't quick or fashionable at the time.
He was a fly half back in South Africa to be fair, but he had far too much flair to ever be considered as a potential Bok 10.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:41 pm
by Banquo
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:37 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:27 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:19 pm
I did not appreciate Barritt's contribution at the time. Having watched Farrell at 12 so many times since, I now hold my hands up in apology.
My work here with you has been utterly wasted; I've tried so hard to point to how useful a 'just get over the gainline, top defending 12' is (vs shoehorning iffy 10's in there with our obsession over a dual receiver 10/12)....and yet only now......Barritt also had a half decent offload and kicking game tbh. But he wasn't quick or fashionable at the time.
He was a fly half back in South Africa to be fair, but he had far too much flair to ever be considered as a potential Bok 10.
Yes... we were reminded of that constantly by a former poster; in fairness, he had the basics you'd expect of a centre, but looked nothing like a 10, even a bok one.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:10 pm
by Puja
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:24 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:35 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:20 pm
Borthwick likes playing his cards close to his chest and was not one that appreciated people giving hints away to the media. It'll be interesting to see if the many journos giving opinions have any contacts or are able to guess correctly based purely on what they've been allowed to see if training.
Wouldn't surprise me to see Manu left out, his work rate has improved at Sale but his explosive impact has diminished and he rarely plays more than an hour. Borthwick does talk about selecting the best 80 minute team but he does like high workrate.
To be fair Malins had a shocker v Ireland, probably worse than Ewels. However up to that point was good and brought a lot to our play.
That said am surprised to read he is starting.
Also reported LudLAM has be training with BC and Mr Blobby.
Malins was also shockingly bad v Wales. Looked utterly out of his depth- I watched him closely as was at the game, and he was a rabbit in the headlights.
If the rumours are true of him not doing well under the Eddie regime, then he might be a different player in a different environment. He does have the ability to be a creative option and Daly-replacement given his history at fly-half, but I'm with you that I'm surprised he's starting.
Puja
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:21 pm
by Oakboy
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:27 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:19 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:46 pm
Absolutely Puja!!! He was immense for Sarries, a rock. Also seemed to be a top bloke
I did not appreciate Barritt's contribution at the time. Having watched Farrell at 12 so many times since, I now hold my hands up in apology.
My work here with you has been utterly wasted; I've tried so hard to point to how useful a 'just get over the gainline, top defending 12' is (vs shoehorning iffy 10's in there with our obsession over a dual receiver 10/12)....and yet only now......Barritt also had a half decent offload and kicking game tbh. But he wasn't quick or fashionable at the time.
No, your work has not been wasted. I'm just slow on the uptake.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:40 pm
by Banquo
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:10 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:24 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:35 pm
To be fair Malins had a shocker v Ireland, probably worse than Ewels. However up to that point was good and brought a lot to our play.
That said am surprised to read he is starting.
Also reported LudLAM has be training with BC and Mr Blobby.
Malins was also shockingly bad v Wales. Looked utterly out of his depth- I watched him closely as was at the game, and he was a rabbit in the headlights.
If the rumours are true of him not doing well under the Eddie regime, then he might be a different player in a different environment. He does have the ability to be a creative option and Daly-replacement given his history at fly-half, but I'm with you that I'm surprised he's starting.
Puja
Mebbe. Or maybe he’s - a- not really an intl winger (my view) or b- not cut out for this level.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:32 pm
by Mellsblue
I was waiting for the Barritt played flyhalf in SA line. Does anyone want to tell us, for no apparent reason, how rich they are so as to complete the set?
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:52 pm
by Which Tyler
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:32 pm
I was waiting for the Barritt played flyhalf in SA line. Does anyone want to tell us, for no apparent reason, how rich they are so as to complete the set?
Oh gods, I'd forgotten that bit.
It really was the proof that he was better than any of us
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:03 pm
by p/d
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:40 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:10 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:24 pm
Malins was also shockingly bad v Wales. Looked utterly out of his depth- I watched him closely as was at the game, and he was a rabbit in the headlights.
If the rumours are true of him not doing well under the Eddie regime, then he might be a different player in a different environment. He does have the ability to be a creative option and Daly-replacement given his history at fly-half, but I'm with you that I'm surprised he's starting.
Puja
Mebbe. Or maybe he’s - a- not really an intl winger (my view) or b- not cut out for this level.
I’m not so sure. I think he has the goods for this level, though he could easily be mistaken for an accountant whose sporting ability is limited to clogging up the roads over the weekend on an overpriced 2 wheeler
Re: Squad named
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:28 pm
by Scrumhead
On Malins, I think I read that Eddie literally had him in tears. If that’s true, I’m not really surprised if he was playing without much confidence. Some might argue test players need to be made of sterner stuff, but singling out a player for that much criticism in front of their peers is rarely (if ever) going to bring the best out of them.
I would rather Murley or Freeman, but I still think Malins has something to offer and is better than his England career so far suggests.
The other piece to consider is that the attack is now being run by Nick Evans not Gleeson. I think Borthwick will also give Evans way more freedom than Gleeson is every likely to have had under Eddie. Even if the personnel is largely the same, I'd like to think the mindset an approach will be considerably different. Borthwick has a reputation for being conservative, which I’m not totally convinced is deserved, but if he gives Evans some license and the players buy in, I don’t think it’s going to be the same turgid crap we’ve seen over the past couple of seasons (5mins here and there aside).
It’s obviously not going to click immediately and will take time for Evans to get his ideas across, but at the very least, I hope to see a gameplan that makes the most of Marcus Smith’s skillset.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:31 am
by Mellsblue
Midfield merry-go-round
How often England have started with each 10-12-13 partnership since the 2019 World Cup
Ford-Farrell-Slade: 5
Smith-Farrell-Porter: 3
Smith-Farrell-Tuilagi: 3
Ford-Farrell-Tuilagi: 3
Smith-Slade-Marchant: 3
Smith-Slade-Daly: 2
Farrell-Slade-Lawrence: 2
Farrell-Lawrence-Slade: 1
Smith-Farrell-Marchant*: 1
Smith-Farrell-Slade: 1
Ford-Farrell-Joseph: 1
Furbank-Tuilagi-Slade: 1
Farrell-Slade-Joseph: 1
Smith-Kelly-Slade: 1
Smith-Lawrence-Slade: 1
Ford-Farrell-Lawrence: 1
Smith-Tuilagi-Slade: 1
*Not including Saturday's match
Chart: The Times and The Sunday Times
The obvious things to take from that are a) what a shambles and b) England have a 100% winning record with Furbank at 10.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:50 am
by Banquo
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:03 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:40 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:10 pm
If the rumours are true of him not doing well under the Eddie regime, then he might be a different player in a different environment. He does have the ability to be a creative option and Daly-replacement given his history at fly-half, but I'm with you that I'm surprised he's starting.
Puja
Mebbe. Or maybe he’s - a- not really an intl winger (my view) or b- not cut out for this level.
I’m not so sure. I think he has the goods for this level, though he could easily be mistaken for an accountant whose sporting ability is limited to clogging up the roads over the weekend on an overpriced 2 wheeler
Jury's out for me....and Malins
Re: Squad named
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:53 am
by Banquo
Scrumhead wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:28 pm
On Malins, I think I read that Eddie literally had him in tears. If that’s true, I’m not really surprised if he was playing without much confidence. Some might argue test players need to be made of sterner stuff, but singling out a player for that much criticism in front of their peers is rarely (if ever) going to bring the best out of them.
I would rather Murley or Freeman, but I still think Malins has something to offer and is better than his England career so far suggests.
The other piece to consider is that the attack is now being run by Nick Evans not Gleeson. I think Borthwick will also give Evans way more freedom than Gleeson is every likely to have had under Eddie. Even if the personnel is largely the same, I'd like to think the mindset an approach will be considerably different. Borthwick has a reputation for being conservative, which I’m not totally convinced is deserved, but if he gives Evans some license and the players buy in, I don’t think it’s going to be the same turgid crap we’ve seen over the past couple of seasons (5mins here and there aside).
It’s obviously not going to click immediately and will take time for Evans to get his ideas across, but at the very least, I hope to see a gameplan that makes the most of Marcus Smith’s skillset.
Malins is undoubtedly skilled, but he's not looked like an intl winger to date; whether he has the right stuff is my real question. And I don't know the answer, as the evidence to date is sullied by (alleged) 'confidence' issues and imo by not playing in a position that suits him at that level. I think he'd be a very decent 10, but no one who counts agrees.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:27 am
by Mikey Brown
No Z Fagerson, Watson, Price or Harris. Nel (!), Crosbie, White and Jones start for Scotland. As expected otherwise.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:46 am
by twitchy
How Tony Pulis aided Steve Borthwick’s remarkable rise through English rugby
Borthwick will lead England out for the first time as head coach on Saturday and has praised football manager Pulis for his counsel
*Insert joke about tony pulis playing a style of football closer to rugby*
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... e-english/
Re: Squad named
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:56 am
by Banquo
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:27 am
No Z Fagerson, Watson, Price or Harris. Nel (!), Crosbie, White and Jones start for Scotland. As expected otherwise.
Jones is a bit of a surprise? Richie over Johnny, was that a surprise?
Re: Squad named
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:03 am
by 16th man
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:31 am
Midfield merry-go-round
How often England have started with each 10-12-13 partnership since the 2019 World Cup
Ford-Farrell-Slade: 5
Smith-Farrell-Porter: 3
Smith-Farrell-Tuilagi: 3
Ford-Farrell-Tuilagi: 3
Smith-Slade-Marchant: 3
Smith-Slade-Daly: 2
Farrell-Slade-Lawrence: 2
Farrell-Lawrence-Slade: 1
Smith-Farrell-Marchant*: 1
Smith-Farrell-Slade: 1
Ford-Farrell-Joseph: 1
Furbank-Tuilagi-Slade: 1
Farrell-Slade-Joseph: 1
Smith-Kelly-Slade: 1
Smith-Lawrence-Slade: 1
Ford-Farrell-Lawrence: 1
Smith-Tuilagi-Slade: 1
*Not including Saturday's match
Chart: The Times and The Sunday Times
The obvious things to take from that are a) what a shambles and b) England have a 100% winning record with Furbank at 10.
Made worse by the fact that the changes were often by choice and not injury forced, and you can probably add 50% more combos at least once you factor in planned subs and players being shifted in one from the wing.
Re: Squad named
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:06 am
by Oakboy
If this (per DT) is right:
England team to face Scotland (possible)
F Steward; M Malins, J Marchant, O Farrell, O Hassell-Collins; M Smith, J van Poortvliet; E Genge, J George, K Sinckler, M Itoje, O Chessum, L Ludlam, B Curry, A Dombrandt.
Replacements: J Walker, M Vunipola, D Cole, N Isiekwe, B Earl, B Youngs, O Lawrence, A Watson.
. . . the consolation is that once everyone is back from injury it can be a lot better.