RugbyRebels

16th man wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:32 am Jaco obviously very hot on his refereeing of head contact, but was happy to just stand and watch this though....

Jaco rarely favours England. Appalling missed piece of non-reffing. Right in front of him, and where was the TMO?

What is the procedure now as far as Steward's sending off is concerned? Is suspension automatic? Is there an enquiry?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:29 am What is the procedure now as far as Steward's sending off is concerned? Is suspension automatic? Is there an enquiry?

I think there will be a disciplinary to discuss what further action if any is needed. I'd hope they say that was enough, or in fact too much and award us the game

Rugby union refering has been dogged with opacity and inconsistencies as long as I can remember. I realise it is a complicated sport but I am always so envious of e.g. rugby league reffing (particularly the video ref). How does one fix it?

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:00 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:29 am What is the procedure now as far as Steward's sending off is concerned? Is suspension automatic? Is there an enquiry?

I think there will be a disciplinary to discuss what further action if any is needed. I'd hope they say that was enough, or in fact too much and award us the game

Do you know if that is actually a thing they do? My understanding was if it’s worthy of a red it’s a worthy of a ban, so he’s getting one unless they decide it was an incorrect call at the time.

I don’t agree with it and think the red is often a fair punishment on its own, but I don’t know if that’s an option under current regulations?

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:37 am

morepork wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:56 am

p/d wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:14 pm Not read all the posts but, sorry, that red card and subsequent yellow really highlight how the game is on its arse. These laws have killed the game and those who have brought it to this need to hang their heads in shame.

This is not to take anything away from Ireland who ere clearly the better side

It's on its are because of dull, dull coaches and aversion of risk associated with actually playing, not because of the aversion of risk associated with repeat head trauma verified by data. First risk context, you might lose, second risk context, you might promote accelerated cognitive decline in young athletes.

Cowboy up and learn to play.

My earlier point could be bollox but surely the repeated head trauma is much more driven by rucking/breakdown than by tackling?

And? Both are traumatic and both are cynical if we are talking about a wee dropping the shoulder etc.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:03 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:00 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:29 am What is the procedure now as far as Steward's sending off is concerned? Is suspension automatic? Is there an enquiry?

I think there will be a disciplinary to discuss what further action if any is needed. I'd hope they say that was enough, or in fact too much and award us the game

Do you know if that is actually a thing they do? My understanding was if it’s worthy of a red it’s a worthy of a ban, so he’s getting one unless they decide it was an incorrect call at the time.

I don’t agree with it and think the red is often a fair punishment on its own, but I don’t know if that’s an option under current regulations?

The panel may decide the red was sufficient punishment. Hislop had a red for Saracens a few weeks back which wasnt followed up with a ban.

paddy no 11 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:14 pm Shame about the red, unfortunate but also a tad dull to turn the shoulder in

But Keenans head hit Stewards elbow because he was so low, not the shoulder.

Cameo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:11 am I genuinely didn't realise the red card was controversial until I came on here. It was a bit of an odd one given the context, but Steward had several things he could have done when he saw Keenan drop the ball and try to regather (try to make a tackle, try to dive on the ball, or step away and accept the scrum). Instead he turned the shoulder so his shoulder/elbow caught Keenan square on the head. I don't believe for a minute that it was malicious - more instinctive self defence, but if you are advancing in a defensive line, your default when something unexpected happens can't be to lead with the shoulder or elbow

Keenan didn't drop the ball, Hansen did and Keenan stooped to pick it off the floor. I may be biased being English but from our view in the ground, it looked for all the world Keenan was going to kick it and by the time he scooped it looked that Steward decided to try and avoid contact knowing I was a knock on.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:03 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:00 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:29 am What is the procedure now as far as Steward's sending off is concerned? Is suspension automatic? Is there an enquiry?

I think there will be a disciplinary to discuss what further action if any is needed. I'd hope they say that was enough, or in fact too much and award us the game

Do you know if that is actually a thing they do? My understanding was if it’s worthy of a red it’s a worthy of a ban, so he’s getting one unless they decide it was an incorrect call at the time.

I don’t agree with it and think the red is often a fair punishment on its own, but I don’t know if that’s an option under current regulations?

I'm guessing a bit, but it certainly happens with prem red cards (as in deemed sufficient punishment)

morepork wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:21 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:37 am

morepork wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:56 am

It's on its are because of dull, dull coaches and aversion of risk associated with actually playing, not because of the aversion of risk associated with repeat head trauma verified by data. First risk context, you might lose, second risk context, you might promote accelerated cognitive decline in young athletes.

Cowboy up and learn to play.

My earlier point could be bollox but surely the repeated head trauma is much more driven by rucking/breakdown than by tackling?

And? Both are traumatic and both are cynical if we are talking about a wee dropping the shoulder etc.

..and, if they put the same effort or more into policing rucking and breakdown as they do into high tackles, it'd probably be a good idea, no? Didn't think it was a contentious point tbh, and likely to produce much better outcomes in the long term for players if I'm judging it right....and it was posed as a question

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:12 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:01 am

16th man wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:32 am Jaco obviously very hot on his refereeing of head contact, but was happy to just stand and watch this though....

This being one of the textbook examples of what World Rugby are trying to get rid of as well. The lack of consistency in these incidents is what really galls fans. Steward gets a harsh decision and then this is completely unpunished.

They aren't trying very hard really, are they? They could just enforce existing ruck laws- imo these collisions are worse than the open play tackle type ones, and they happen more often.

Now come on that's commonsense, will never catch on.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:35 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:12 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:01 am

This being one of the textbook examples of what World Rugby are trying to get rid of as well. The lack of consistency in these incidents is what really galls fans. Steward gets a harsh decision and then this is completely unpunished.

They aren't trying very hard really, are they? They could just enforce existing ruck laws- imo these collisions are worse than the open play tackle type ones, and they happen more often.

Now come on that's commonsense, will never catch on.

I'm almost as dreary banging on about this as defending Itoje, but not quite

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:03 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:00 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:29 am What is the procedure now as far as Steward's sending off is concerned? Is suspension automatic? Is there an enquiry?

I think there will be a disciplinary to discuss what further action if any is needed. I'd hope they say that was enough, or in fact too much and award us the game

Do you know if that is actually a thing they do? My understanding was if it’s worthy of a red it’s a worthy of a ban, so he’s getting one unless they decide it was an incorrect call at the time.

I don’t agree with it and think the red is often a fair punishment on its own, but I don’t know if that’s an option under current regulations?

What will likely happen is that he'll get a 3 week ban and then be allowed to take a week off by going to the high tackle school to learn how to lower his tackle height.

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:10 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:57 am I’m still torn on the Steward incident.

Even assuming Steward had any time to think (or somehow predict where Keenan would move his head/body in that split second) I cannot picture what he could have done. Trying to go lower could well have meant shoulder/head on head.

I suppose he could have put his arms up and just accepted whatever part of Keenan hitting him in the body to remove any risk of stray arms/elbows, which would seem like an insane expectation of a player running at full pelt, regardless of whether they had the time to react.

In terms of receiving the red card to teach him a lesson, what lesson could he even learn from this that will avoid future head clashes?

Well yes- and for example, what would the punishment have been if Keenan had hit his hip or knee? Nil. It was head on upper arm, rather than upper arm to head.

Not going to labour this as I have no skin in the game but if Steward was running full pelt shouldn't he already be thinking about what to do if the Ireland player runs full pelt at him. Some of the comments sound like Keenan came from nowhere. I appreciate the bit or a dip (but not unforeseeable so) from Keenan made it hard and he wouldn't have expected him to come straight at him, but when flying up in a defensive line you should be making sure you are in a position to make a tackle and to dip low before the opposition gets to you. If he had done that, I would agree that a red would be very harsh even if there had been head contact. As it was, I have some sympathy but he just presented a head/elbow to Keenan's head.

Agree on rucks, though I'm not sure how to police it or whether more fundamental law changes are needed.

Cameo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:10 pm ]

Not going to labour this as I have no skin in the game but if Steward was running full pelt shouldn't he already be thinking about what to do if the Ireland player runs full pelt at him. Some of the comments sound like Keenan came from nowhere. I appreciate the bit or a dip (but not unforeseeable so) from Keenan made it hard and he wouldn't have expected him to come straight at him, but when flying up in a defensive line you should be making sure you are in a position to make a tackle and to dip low before the opposition gets to you. If he had done that, I would agree that a red would be very harsh even if there had been head contact. As it was, I have some sympathy but he just presented a head/elbow to Keenan's head.

Agree on rucks, though I'm not sure how to police it or whether more fundamental law changes are needed.

Steward wasn't running at full pelt he was pulling up due to the knock on and Keenan looking as if he was going to kick the ball prior to bending over to scoop the ball up.

Cameo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:10 pm ]

Not going to labour this as I have no skin in the game but if Steward was running full pelt shouldn't he already be thinking about what to do if the Ireland player runs full pelt at him. Some of the comments sound like Keenan came from nowhere. I appreciate the bit or a dip (but not unforeseeable so) from Keenan made it hard and he wouldn't have expected him to come straight at him, but when flying up in a defensive line you should be making sure you are in a position to make a tackle and to dip low before the opposition gets to you. If he had done that, I would agree that a red would be very harsh even if there had been head contact. As it was, I have some sympathy but he just presented a head/elbow to Keenan's head.

Agree on rucks, though I'm not sure how to police it or whether more fundamental law changes are needed.

Steward wasn't running at full pelt he was pulling up due to the knock on and Keenan looking as if he was going to kick the ball prior to bending over to scoop the ball up.

Cameo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:10 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:10 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:57 am I’m still torn on the Steward incident.

Even assuming Steward had any time to think (or somehow predict where Keenan would move his head/body in that split second) I cannot picture what he could have done. Trying to go lower could well have meant shoulder/head on head.

I suppose he could have put his arms up and just accepted whatever part of Keenan hitting him in the body to remove any risk of stray arms/elbows, which would seem like an insane expectation of a player running at full pelt, regardless of whether they had the time to react.

In terms of receiving the red card to teach him a lesson, what lesson could he even learn from this that will avoid future head clashes?

Well yes- and for example, what would the punishment have been if Keenan had hit his hip or knee? Nil. It was head on upper arm, rather than upper arm to head.

Not going to labour this as I have no skin in the game but if Steward was running full pelt shouldn't he already be thinking about what to do if the Ireland player runs full pelt at him. Some of the comments sound like Keenan came from nowhere. I appreciate the bit or a dip (but not unforeseeable so) from Keenan made it hard and he wouldn't have expected him to come straight at him, but when flying up in a defensive line you should be making sure you are in a position to make a tackle and to dip low before the opposition gets to you. If he had done that, I would agree that a red would be very harsh even if there had been head contact. As it was, I have some sympathy but he just presented a head/elbow to Keenan's head.

Agree on rucks, though I'm not sure how to police it or whether more fundamental law changes are needed.

We aren’t going to agree. These are fractions of seconds- had he been running crouched it would have been head to head possibly depending on what he did. Even so, he was essentially passive. As above imo he had no time and Keenan himself was coming up from an odd ish position.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:39 pm]

We aren’t going to agree. These are fractions of seconds- had he been running crouched it would have been head to head possibly depending on what he did. Even so, he was essentially passive. As above imo he had no time and Keenan himself was coming up from an odd ish position.

John Barclay on BBC is saying harsh red and Steward had 0.6 of a second to react. (And Barclay isn't exactly well known for pro English views)

Ironically, next year, if the RFU keeps pushing the laws they want to change on tackle height in the guises they are suggesting (I have just completed their one eyed and very leading consultation questionnaire) Keenan gets sanctioned for leading with the head, not Freddie.

Rugby incident for me that, agree Peyper should not be at the WC.

"Freddie Steward is free to play immediately after an independent Disciplinary Committee chose not to uphold his red card from the Guinness Six Nations game between Ireland and England on Saturday in Dublin.

The judgement is available to read below:

England fullback Freddie Steward appeared before an independent Disciplinary Committee via video link having received a red card in the Guinness Six Nations match between Ireland and England on Saturday 18th March 2023 played at the Aviva Stadium.

The Red Card was issued as a result of the Referee concluding that the Player had acted contrary to Law 9.13 (A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. Dangerous tackling includes, but is not limited to, tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders),

The independent Disciplinary Committee consisting of Nigel Hampton KC – Chair (New Zealand), Frank Hadden (Scotland) and John Langford (Australia) heard the case, and considered all the available evidence, including multiple broadcast angles and submissions from the Player and his representative.

After hearing the submissions, the Disciplinary Committee formally amended the Law which was breached to Law 9.11 (Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including leading with the elbow or forearm, or jumping into, or over, a tackler.)

The player denied that he had committed an act of foul play worthy of a red card as described in Law 9.11. Having reviewed all the evidence, the Committee decided that: (i) head contact with an opposing player had occurred; (ii) there had been an act of foul play in breach of Law 9.11 in that the Player had been reckless in his actions and in his upright positioning as he approached and came into highly dangerous contact with the other player; and (iii) there were sufficient mitigating factors including the late change in the dynamics and positioning of the opposing player which should have resulted in the issue of a yellow card rather than a red card.

On that basis, the Committee did not uphold the red card and the player is free to play again immediately.

The Committee acknowledged that match officials are required to make decisions under pressure and in the heat of a live match environment."

Disciplinary Committee in sensible decision shock.

Now would probably be the perfect time for a rematch. I bet the whole Ireland squad are an absolute mess.

Foul play? Reckless? How did they manage to conclude that? I still don't think it was even a penalty, never mind a yellow card.