RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:36 pm Yep. No issue with that. Clearly a great talent but the way we’ve used him hasn’t ever really sat right with me. Let him learn and get some experience at this level.

Let him win an England spot because his form demands it rather than because he’s fast and we have no idea how to attack.

Yes. But his form is great. He still can't play for England as long as he is in France.

Q : Could he be selected for the Lions as an English, but France-based player?

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:31 pm Nailed on to be playing for Scotland in 3 years time. They’ll be throwing everything at him.

I hinted at this previously, but am now wondering if this is a genuine option in his mind. I'm struggling to see what the real benefit of one extra year in Paris will be, particularly as it would shut him out of England consideration until at least the Autumn of 2025.

rjjb wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:47 am

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:31 pm Nailed on to be playing for Scotland in 3 years time. They’ll be throwing everything at him.

I hinted at this previously, but am now wondering if this is a genuine option in his mind. I'm struggling to see what the real benefit of one extra year in Paris will be, particularly as it would shut him out of England consideration until at least the Autumn of 2025.

Crikey - just looked at the start of Kelleher's article & he's saying it's a contract extension of 2 years! Why that long if not to open up the option of switching country?

rjjb wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:47 am

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:31 pm Nailed on to be playing for Scotland in 3 years time. They’ll be throwing everything at him.

I hinted at this previously, but am now wondering if this is a genuine option in his mind. I'm struggling to see what the real benefit of one extra year in Paris will be, particularly as it would shut him out of England consideration until at least the Autumn of 2025.

Money, food, Paris, French women, lifestyle, more food, being out of the UK, keeping away from Borthwick etc......

rjjb wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 1:20 am

rjjb wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:47 am

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:31 pm Nailed on to be playing for Scotland in 3 years time. They’ll be throwing everything at him.

I hinted at this previously, but am now wondering if this is a genuine option in his mind. I'm struggling to see what the real benefit of one extra year in Paris will be, particularly as it would shut him out of England consideration until at least the Autumn of 2025.

Crikey - just looked at the start of Kelleher's article & he's saying it's a contract extension of 2 years! Why that long if not to open up the option of switching country?

It was probably the offer on the table and takes him to the point where he'd be JIFF qualified and presumably have a lot of options if he's playing well.

rjjb wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 1:20 amCrikey - just looked at the start of Kelleher's article & he's saying it's a contract extension of 2 years! Why that long if not to open up the option of switching country?

Why would there be something suspicious about a player signing an orthodox contract length?

I thought with faz out of this 6N we could try and progress our style with a 10 that might pass to him. No, we can't have nice things.

I always remember this quote from graham henry "england are world champions at wasting talent".

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:17 am
It was probably the offer on the table and takes him to the point where he'd be JIFF qualified and presumably have a lot of options if he's playing well.

I think to be classified as JIFF (Jeunes Issues de Formation Française - young players who've come through the French system) a foreigner has to have been living in France for 60 consecutive months, so it's highly unlikely that Henri will want to wait that long.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:52 pm Good for him! His England experiences have not been good, so why would he opt for more of that?

Less money but more fun! Good lad!!

This is key, isnt it?

If he had been used properly at the WC and given some real encouragement he would have been more likely to come back to England ASAP. He knows Borthwick is in post for as the next few years and seems to have concluded that he's better off elsewhere.

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:07 am

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:17 am
It was probably the offer on the table and takes him to the point where he'd be JIFF qualified and presumably have a lot of options if he's playing well.

I think to be classified as JIFF (Jeunes Issues de Formation Française - young players who've come through the French system) a foreigner has to have been living in France for 60 consecutive months, so it's highly unlikely that Henri will want to wait that long.

Yeah, I'm fairly confused on that point. My reading of the regulations has him needing 5 years as well with him being too old even joining at 20 for the 3 year qualification.

Multiple articles in Times, Telegraph, Rugby paper etc in the last month though have said Racing believe he'll qualify in 3 years.

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:34 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:07 am

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:17 am
It was probably the offer on the table and takes him to the point where he'd be JIFF qualified and presumably have a lot of options if he's playing well.

I think to be classified as JIFF (Jeunes Issues de Formation Française - young players who've come through the French system) a foreigner has to have been living in France for 60 consecutive months, so it's highly unlikely that Henri will want to wait that long.

Yeah, I'm fairly confused on that point. My reading of the regulations has him needing 5 years as well with him being too old even joining at 20 for the 3 year qualification.

Multiple articles in Times, Telegraph, Rugby paper etc in the last month though have said Racing believe he'll qualify in 3 years.

Here's an extract from an article in the TF1 Info World Cup website:

"5 ans de résidence nécessaires
Et ce n'est pas tout. Un joueur peut représenter un pays sans aucun lien familial, s'il y habite depuis plusieurs années. "Résider soixante mois (cinq ans, contre trois ans avant 2021, ndlr) consécutivement" ou "pendant une période cumulée de dix ans" suffit à être sportivement naturalisé, est-il expliqué sur le règlement."
5 years residence necessary. And it's not all. A player can represent a country with no family connection, if he's lived there for several years. "Reside 60 months (5 years, against 3 years before 2021) consecutively" or "during a cumulative period of ten years" suffices to be naturalised in terms of sports, as explained in the rules"

Sure I've read similar, albeit clearly he's not in the frame to ever play for France as it stands, no matter how long he's there for. Scotland and Wales maybe...

Only mention it because of the press articles (fallible I know) confidently stating that JIFF was a possibility for him in 3. This was from the Times:

Arundell's value will rise in France at the end of his new contract. In France if a player, regardless of their nationality, joins a club while or before they are 20 and stay for three years, they become classed as a homegrown player, or a joueurs issus des filières de formation (JIFF). That is important as each Top 14 club must have an average of 16 JIFF players in their match-day 23-man squads across the league season, or face punishments. If they average more than 16 they gain financial credits.

Midol also suggesting the same in this

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/2023/12/09/tra ... 632192.php

.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:24 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:52 pm Good for him! His England experiences have not been good, so why would he opt for more of that?

Less money but more fun! Good lad!!

This is key, isnt it?

If he had been used properly at the WC and given some real encouragement he would have been more likely to come back to England ASAP. He knows Borthwick is in post for as the next few years and seems to have concluded that he's better off elsewhere.

..or he got a great offer from a great club.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 11:40 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:24 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:52 pm Good for him! His England experiences have not been good, so why would he opt for more of that?

Less money but more fun! Good lad!!

This is key, isnt it?

If he had been used properly at the WC and given some real encouragement he would have been more likely to come back to England ASAP. He knows Borthwick is in post for as the next few years and seems to have concluded that he's better off elsewhere.

..or he got a great offer from a great club.

Reading between the lines from his Times interview, I’d guess he’s on less at Racing than the hybrid contract. Loads of talk about money not being the primary motivator at his age and the emphasis on being at the best place to improve as a player.
But, yep, great on field offer. Other than playing outside Russell everything at Racing is better for him as a player: dry pitch - in juxtaposition to the mud wrestling at The Rec - a higher quality of player - team mates and oppo - coaches like Rokocoko and Michalak, and he references Lancaster developing the Ire & Leinster 15 whose name evades me a couple of times. Who can blame him.
I wonder if the blackmail over 6N selection and signing the hybrid contract backfired on the RFU.

Yeah, Times journo mentioned a few times the Racing offer was smaller than the combined Bath/Hybrid offer.

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:38 am Sure I've read similar, albeit clearly he's not in the frame to ever play for France as it stands, no matter how long he's there for. Scotland and Wales maybe...

Only mention it because of the press articles (fallible I know) confidently stating that JIFF was a possibility for him in 3. This was from the Times:

Arundell's value will rise in France at the end of his new contract. In France if a player, regardless of their nationality, joins a club while or before they are 20 and stay for three years, they become classed as a homegrown player, or a joueurs issus des filières de formation (JIFF). That is important as each Top 14 club must have an average of 16 JIFF players in their match-day 23-man squads across the league season, or face punishments. If they average more than 16 they gain financial credits.

Midol also suggesting the same in this

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/2023/12/09/tra ... 632192.php

I'm confused now (happens regularly in my advancing years ) If he's now considered, at the age of 21, as a product of Racing's development squad then he could play for France in three years' time? If that's true, so much the better for Henri and for the XV de France!

I'd love to see him at fullback for les Bleus with Penaud and Bielle-Biarrey on the wings!

No, it's not true.

He may or may not be eligible for JIFF status, due to a loophole that hadn't (that I've noticed) been noticed before (how many capped players move to a different country before the age of 20?).
Bear in mind that he had already had his 20th birthday before moving to France, so was not "before the age of 20" when he moved - which is still causing confusion, and may be down to something lost in translation. FTR, he'd also had his 21st birthday before making his debut for Racing. It's certainly open for debate whether he qualifies for JIFF status.

Being JIFF eligible doesn't mean that he's eligible to play for France.

He's been capped by England, so he can only switch to a country he has an ancestral qualification for, 3 years after his last cap.

Unless he's got a French granny somewhere, (or WR change the rules again) he can never play for France.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:50 pm I wonder if the blackmail over 6N selection and signing the hybrid contract backfired on the RFU.

That occurred to me as well. A very shitty way to do business to try and hurry him into a decision and I wouldn't blame him if it was so.

As long as we don't lose him to Scotland, I'm not utterly heartbroken. He's got so much talent, but also still needs to learn a chunk of the nuts and bolts of the game and it might not be the end of the world to have him doing that outside of the England limelight, with casuals either baying for his selection or calling for his head when he makes a mistake or has a dip in form.

Puja

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 1:55 pm
Unless he's got a French granny somewhere, (or WR change the rules again) he can never play for France.

I’ll volunteer to be his grand-père if he marries one of my granddaughters

All this talk of re-qualifying or being mad at Borthwick seems a bit strange to me. Maybe there’s some evidence I missed. He’s probably just having a good time in France so why not?

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 1:48 pm

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:38 am Sure I've read similar, albeit clearly he's not in the frame to ever play for France as it stands, no matter how long he's there for. Scotland and Wales maybe...

Only mention it because of the press articles (fallible I know) confidently stating that JIFF was a possibility for him in 3. This was from the Times:

Arundell's value will rise in France at the end of his new contract. In France if a player, regardless of their nationality, joins a club while or before they are 20 and stay for three years, they become classed as a homegrown player, or a joueurs issus des filières de formation (JIFF). That is important as each Top 14 club must have an average of 16 JIFF players in their match-day 23-man squads across the league season, or face punishments. If they average more than 16 they gain financial credits.

Midol also suggesting the same in this

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/2023/12/09/tra ... 632192.php

I'm confused now (happens regularly in my advancing years ) If he's now considered, at the age of 21, as a product of Racing's development squad then he could play for France in three years' time? If that's true, so much the better for Henri and for the XV de France!

I'd love to see him at fullback for les Bleus with Penaud and Bielle-Biarrey on the wings!

I'm probably just as confused to be honest. The suggestion isn't that he could ever play for France though. That is never on the agenda under the current regs. More just him being classed as home grown. (Edit. As outlined by Which Tyler)

On the 21 thing above. Technically his contract with Racing would have started and he would have been in France prior to turning 21, if that birthday is a factor.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 11:40 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:24 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:52 pm Good for him! His England experiences have not been good, so why would he opt for more of that?

Less money but more fun! Good lad!!

This is key, isnt it?

If he had been used properly at the WC and given some real encouragement he would have been more likely to come back to England ASAP. He knows Borthwick is in post for as the next few years and seems to have concluded that he's better off elsewhere.

..or he got a great offer from a great club.

Less total income but heaps more fun in a good environment

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:02 pm # outside of the England limelight, with casuals either baying for his selection or calling for his head when he makes a mistake or has a dip in form.

Puja

As opposed to the cultured, informed way we do it?

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:02 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 11:40 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:24 am

This is key, isnt it?

If he had been used properly at the WC and given some real encouragement he would have been more likely to come back to England ASAP. He knows Borthwick is in post for as the next few years and seems to have concluded that he's better off elsewhere.

..or he got a great offer from a great club.

Less total income

mebbe- whats he on?