RugbyRebels

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:I think a government keeping its options open is fine, the issue for me is I wouldn't trust this government with flushing a toilet

You've nailed it. I was going to say that the tribalism of our politics at the moment means that the very fact the amendment came from Labour nixed any chance of most Tory MPs supporting it and that voting it down doesn't necessarily mean that the government is opposed to the spirit of the amendment, but I'm disinclined to give this government the benefit of the doubt.

Puja

I think we have to assume that everyone who voted against the clause thought either 1) it was a bad thing or 2) their careers were more important than the good the clause would have achieved.

And 3) they didn't want to intrude on the options open to the executive in normal governance

Didn't quite know where to put this, but I referenced Jim Davidson to my wife in a discussion yesterday. I didn't use his name, but she was wondering how a comedian could be pro-government. So I referenced him...

And, well, today YouTube decided I might want to watch Jim Davidson. I mean, wtf!

So I did. OMFG! Jesus, this is what these old people are watching that turns their minds to mush.



Jeez. And then the comments...

Stom wrote:Jeez. And then the comments...

Why did I read them. Why.

Puja

Stom wrote:Didn't quite know where to put this, but I referenced Jim Davidson to my wife in a discussion yesterday. I didn't use his name, but she was wondering how a comedian could be pro-government. So I referenced him...

And, well, today YouTube decided I might want to watch Jim Davidson. I mean, wtf!

So I did. OMFG! Jesus, this is what these old people are watching that turns their minds to mush.



Jeez. And then the comments...

I lasted 3 minutes. I don't know if it got offensive later, but it every second I saw offended my sense of what the fuck is the point of that?

Not clicking because I don't want to give him money. What's the gist?

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Not clicking because I don't want to give him money. What's the gist?

He’s just exactly like those people... says, for instance, that Hamilton is great, but he shouldn’t politicize it. What would his poor mum think? Does she agree with this? Does her life not matter? ( because, of course, if black lives matter, no other lives can matter).

And then all the other ones. Basically, I’m not a racist, I’m just racist.

I do have an issue with Hamilton banging on about social equality whilst he dodges tax

Digby wrote:I do have an issue with Hamilton banging on about social equality whilst he dodges tax

The problem with that is that it sort of means that you aren’t allowed to take advantage of the international nature of taxation if you get Rich in the public eye, but that it’s fine if you inherited your money like a proper chap.

canta_brian wrote:

Digby wrote:I do have an issue with Hamilton banging on about social equality whilst he dodges tax

The problem with that is that it sort of means that you aren’t allowed to take advantage of the international nature of taxation if you get Rich in the public eye, but that it’s fine if you inherited your money like a proper chap.

I mean, I'm against tax avoidance from any and everyone, so I want everyone taxed properly. However, Rees-Mogg at least is open about not giving a shit that public services are underfunded and Rashford (as far as I'm aware) pays his fair share of taxes with his moralising. I like Hamilton and he gets a lot more stick than he should, but it does seem odd to financially base yourself in Monaco and also complain that vital services are being underfunded.

Puja

canta_brian wrote:

Digby wrote:I do have an issue with Hamilton banging on about social equality whilst he dodges tax

The problem with that is that it sort of means that you aren’t allowed to take advantage of the international nature of taxation if you get Rich in the public eye, but that it’s fine if you inherited your money like a proper chap.

I would also be against people who've inherited vast wealth tax dodging and then lecturing people on social equality

Digby wrote:

canta_brian wrote:

Digby wrote:I do have an issue with Hamilton banging on about social equality whilst he dodges tax

The problem with that is that it sort of means that you aren’t allowed to take advantage of the international nature of taxation if you get Rich in the public eye, but that it’s fine if you inherited your money like a proper chap.

I would also be against people who've inherited vast wealth tax dodging and then lecturing people on social equality

What counts as a tax dodge? As I’m pretty sure I fall into that bracket if it includes running operations from a more tax positive legislation. Though, oddly, we might be seeing something up in the Uk for tax reasons simply because the vat threshold is so much higher than everywhere than Switzerland.

Digby wrote:

canta_brian wrote:

Digby wrote:I do have an issue with Hamilton banging on about social equality whilst he dodges tax

The problem with that is that it sort of means that you aren’t allowed to take advantage of the international nature of taxation if you get Rich in the public eye, but that it’s fine if you inherited your money like a proper chap.

I would also be against people who've inherited vast wealth tax dodging and then lecturing people on social equality

Ah, so it’s the lecturing that is bad?

Funnily enough most of those who have inherited vast wealth and are avoiding taxation don’t tend to give a flying fuck about social equality and wouldn’t therefore comment.

Hamilton’s position may be hypocritical but at least he has recognised it as a problem.

canta_brian wrote:

Digby wrote:

canta_brian wrote: The problem with that is that it sort of means that you aren’t allowed to take advantage of the international nature of taxation if you get Rich in the public eye, but that it’s fine if you inherited your money like a proper chap.

I would also be against people who've inherited vast wealth tax dodging and then lecturing people on social equality

Ah, so it’s the lecturing that is bad?

Funnily enough most of those who have inherited vast wealth and are avoiding taxation don’t tend to give a flying fuck about social equality and wouldn’t therefore comment.

Hamilton’s position may be hypocritical but at least he has recognised it as a problem.

He has recognised a problem, and then run away from his fair share in dealing with said problem, and then turned around and lectured others. It's not dissimilar work to that of someone like Bono

Digby wrote:

canta_brian wrote:

Digby wrote:
I would also be against people who've inherited vast wealth tax dodging and then lecturing people on social equality

Ah, so it’s the lecturing that is bad?

Funnily enough most of those who have inherited vast wealth and are avoiding taxation don’t tend to give a flying fuck about social equality and wouldn’t therefore comment.

Hamilton’s position may be hypocritical but at least he has recognised it as a problem.

He has recognised a problem, and then run away from his fair share in dealing with said problem, and then turned around and lectured others. It's not dissimilar work to that of someone like Bono

I would agree that "recognising it as a problem" and then actively removing your money to make sure that none of it will be used to contribute to the solution is actually worse. "This is terrible! Oh, no - *I'm* not going to help."

Puja

Digby wrote:

canta_brian wrote:

Digby wrote:
I would also be against people who've inherited vast wealth tax dodging and then lecturing people on social equality

Ah, so it’s the lecturing that is bad?

Funnily enough most of those who have inherited vast wealth and are avoiding taxation don’t tend to give a flying fuck about social equality and wouldn’t therefore comment.

Hamilton’s position may be hypocritical but at least he has recognised it as a problem.

He has recognised a problem, and then run away from his fair share in dealing with said problem, and then turned around and lectured others. It's not dissimilar work to that of someone like Bono

Has he though? How many weeks a year does he spend in the UK? What does he do with his money. He may well be spending more than the tax take on social programmes he thinks worthwhile (or he might be spending it on caviar for all I know). He either has a good point or he doesn't. Without a minute examination of his finances, I'm not prepared to say he shouldn't or even that he's a hypocrite.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Digby wrote:

canta_brian wrote: Ah, so it’s the lecturing that is bad?

Funnily enough most of those who have inherited vast wealth and are avoiding taxation don’t tend to give a flying fuck about social equality and wouldn’t therefore comment.

Hamilton’s position may be hypocritical but at least he has recognised it as a problem.

He has recognised a problem, and then run away from his fair share in dealing with said problem, and then turned around and lectured others. It's not dissimilar work to that of someone like Bono

Has he though? How many weeks a year does he spend in the UK? What does he do with his money. He may well be spending more than the tax take on social programmes he thinks worthwhile (or he might be spending it on caviar for all I know). He either has a good point or he doesn't. Without a minute examination of his finances, I'm not prepared to say he shouldn't or even that he's a hypocrite.

Maybe a lot of F1 drivers base themselves in Monaco (or Switzerland as Hamilton did for a period) simply for the love of the place, or maybe Gerhard Burger gave the only honest answer when asked why he was based there and said simply, tax.

Hamilton does spend a decent chunk of cash on various scholarship programmes aimed at developing the number of black engineers in F1 (and probably other leading auto sport events) but that and other charity spending probably doesn't match his annual tax dodge, it might not even match his VAT dodging whilst flying around the world on a private plane, luckily for Hamilton climate change will not hit BAME people the hardest

Of course people are going to think differently about the world, and not everyone will consider just because he dodges social responsibility they shouldn't take at face value concerns he has about social responsibility, but I can tell you specifically does think Hamilton's tax dodging is an issue, Hamilton and his staff, because they've said they recognise it's a problem given the comments he's made and he'll need/seek to address that, he just hasn't addressed it that I'm aware of. Though I recognise for me I'm more interested in him paying his taxes than making a speech about why it's not an issue.

Digby wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Digby wrote:
He has recognised a problem, and then run away from his fair share in dealing with said problem, and then turned around and lectured others. It's not dissimilar work to that of someone like Bono

Has he though? How many weeks a year does he spend in the UK? What does he do with his money. He may well be spending more than the tax take on social programmes he thinks worthwhile (or he might be spending it on caviar for all I know). He either has a good point or he doesn't. Without a minute examination of his finances, I'm not prepared to say he shouldn't or even that he's a hypocrite.

Maybe a lot of F1 drivers base themselves in Monaco (or Switzerland as Hamilton did for a period) simply for the love of the place, or maybe Gerhard Burger gave the only honest answer when asked why he was based there and said simply, tax.

Hamilton does spend a decent chunk of cash on various scholarship programmes aimed at developing the number of black engineers in F1 (and probably other leading auto sport events) but that and other charity spending probably doesn't match his annual tax dodge, it might not even match his VAT dodging whilst flying around the world on a private plane, luckily for Hamilton climate change will not hit BAME people the hardest

Of course people are going to think differently about the world, and not everyone will consider just because he dodges social responsibility they shouldn't take at face value concerns he has about social responsibility, but I can tell you specifically does think Hamilton's tax dodging is an issue, Hamilton and his staff, because they've said they recognise it's a problem given the comments he's made and he'll need/seek to address that, he just hasn't addressed it that I'm aware of. Though I recognise for me I'm more interested in him paying his taxes than making a speech about why it's not an issue.

If he doesn’t live in the UK for more than half the year, and there’s a good chance he doesn’t, how is it tax avoidance? Just because he’s British doesn’t mean he should pay tax in the UK. I don’t.

It's a lesser thing assuming you're not earning the millions each month Hamilton will.

That said if you're merely asking does that you're a former staffer to Boris Johnson who left the UK to live in a low tax regime run by a dictator inform how I'd take your commentary on the woes of Corbyn and his ilk in the UK then the answer to that is yes. It doesn't mean you don't have a point, just as concerns about Hamilton's conflicting stance doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.

If someone is doing what they're doing to just try and get by for their family it's one thing, though even then if everyone did that there's a problem in society, doing it on the level Hamilton does it whilst still wrapping oneself in the Union Flag..., well it bothers me. I will not be the only one it bothers, though there'll be plenty who aren't bothered by it or consider it distinct from his comments on BLM

Digby wrote:It's a lesser thing assuming you're not earning the millions each month Hamilton will.

That said if you're merely asking does that you're a former staffer to Boris Johnson who left the UK to live in a low tax regime run by a dictator inform how I'd take your commentary on the woes of Corbyn and his ilk in the UK then the answer to that is yes. It doesn't mean you don't have a point, just as concerns about Hamilton's conflicting stance doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.

If someone is doing what they're doing to just try and get by for their family it's one thing, though even then if everyone did that there's a problem in society, doing it on the level Hamilton does it whilst still wrapping oneself in the Union Flag..., well it bothers me. I will not be the only one it bothers, though there'll be plenty who aren't bothered by it or consider it distinct from his comments on BLM

I was never a staffer!!!

And so your ability to be a proud Brit is dependent on where you pay your tax?

I mean, it’s very different between someone who lives in the UK but fiddles their taxes to someone who lives in another country. And Hamilton doesn’t live in the UK.

Stom wrote:

Digby wrote:It's a lesser thing assuming you're not earning the millions each month Hamilton will.

That said if you're merely asking does that you're a former staffer to Boris Johnson who left the UK to live in a low tax regime run by a dictator inform how I'd take your commentary on the woes of Corbyn and his ilk in the UK then the answer to that is yes. It doesn't mean you don't have a point, just as concerns about Hamilton's conflicting stance doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.

If someone is doing what they're doing to just try and get by for their family it's one thing, though even then if everyone did that there's a problem in society, doing it on the level Hamilton does it whilst still wrapping oneself in the Union Flag..., well it bothers me. I will not be the only one it bothers, though there'll be plenty who aren't bothered by it or consider it distinct from his comments on BLM

I was never a staffer!!!

And so your ability to be a proud Brit is dependent on where you pay your tax?

I mean, it’s very different between someone who lives in the UK but fiddles their taxes to someone who lives in another country. And Hamilton doesn’t live in the UK.

Actually, that is one of the sticks used to beat him with, that he lives in America and acts more American than British, while the same people complain about his tax arrangements when they’ve just complained he doesn’t even live in the Uk.

Button never got the same criticism, maybe because he was a stereotypical white playboy, not a black kid with actual interests outside of his sport

Digby wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Digby wrote:
He has recognised a problem, and then run away from his fair share in dealing with said problem, and then turned around and lectured others. It's not dissimilar work to that of someone like Bono

Has he though? How many weeks a year does he spend in the UK? What does he do with his money. He may well be spending more than the tax take on social programmes he thinks worthwhile (or he might be spending it on caviar for all I know). He either has a good point or he doesn't. Without a minute examination of his finances, I'm not prepared to say he shouldn't or even that he's a hypocrite.

Maybe a lot of F1 drivers base themselves in Monaco (or Switzerland as Hamilton did for a period) simply for the love of the place, or maybe Gerhard Burger gave the only honest answer when asked why he was based there and said simply, tax.

Hamilton does spend a decent chunk of cash on various scholarship programmes aimed at developing the number of black engineers in F1 (and probably other leading auto sport events) but that and other charity spending probably doesn't match his annual tax dodge, it might not even match his VAT dodging whilst flying around the world on a private plane, luckily for Hamilton climate change will not hit BAME people the hardest

Of course people are going to think differently about the world, and not everyone will consider just because he dodges social responsibility they shouldn't take at face value concerns he has about social responsibility, but I can tell you specifically does think Hamilton's tax dodging is an issue, Hamilton and his staff, because they've said they recognise it's a problem given the comments he's made and he'll need/seek to address that, he just hasn't addressed it that I'm aware of. Though I recognise for me I'm more interested in him paying his taxes than making a speech about why it's not an issue.

"That you're aware of" is rather fucking massive caveat. Most rich people don't publicise the ins and outs of their giving.

Stom wrote:

Stom wrote:

Digby wrote:It's a lesser thing assuming you're not earning the millions each month Hamilton will.

That said if you're merely asking does that you're a former staffer to Boris Johnson who left the UK to live in a low tax regime run by a dictator inform how I'd take your commentary on the woes of Corbyn and his ilk in the UK then the answer to that is yes. It doesn't mean you don't have a point, just as concerns about Hamilton's conflicting stance doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.

If someone is doing what they're doing to just try and get by for their family it's one thing, though even then if everyone did that there's a problem in society, doing it on the level Hamilton does it whilst still wrapping oneself in the Union Flag..., well it bothers me. I will not be the only one it bothers, though there'll be plenty who aren't bothered by it or consider it distinct from his comments on BLM

I was never a staffer!!!

And so your ability to be a proud Brit is dependent on where you pay your tax?

I mean, it’s very different between someone who lives in the UK but fiddles their taxes to someone who lives in another country. And Hamilton doesn’t live in the UK.

Actually, that is one of the sticks used to beat him with, that he lives in America and acts more American than British, while the same people complain about his tax arrangements when they’ve just complained he doesn’t even live in the Uk.

Button never got the same criticism, maybe because he was a stereotypical white playboy, not a black kid with actual interests outside of his sport

Don't think he lives in America, he's got a flat in Manhattan and a retirement ranch in Colorado, but is domiciled in Monaco; he did used to spend off season time in the states with his ex. Not really sure he gets beaten with sticks to be honest, he's pretty well regarded generally as far as I know. He is however on record as saying he moved to Switzerland in 2007 partly for tax reasons, and was reported to have dodged VAT on his private jet in the Paradise Papers, as well sundry criticisms from the likes of Christian Aid for not paying tax. I'm not judging, just observing.

As for Button, just like Hamilton he worked his way up into F1 through karting, not sure why you ascribe 'stereotypical white playboy' to him, He also set up a charitable foundation. If you are thinking he came from some sort of rich background, he didn't.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Digby wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
Has he though? How many weeks a year does he spend in the UK? What does he do with his money. He may well be spending more than the tax take on social programmes he thinks worthwhile (or he might be spending it on caviar for all I know). He either has a good point or he doesn't. Without a minute examination of his finances, I'm not prepared to say he shouldn't or even that he's a hypocrite.

Maybe a lot of F1 drivers base themselves in Monaco (or Switzerland as Hamilton did for a period) simply for the love of the place, or maybe Gerhard Burger gave the only honest answer when asked why he was based there and said simply, tax.

Hamilton does spend a decent chunk of cash on various scholarship programmes aimed at developing the number of black engineers in F1 (and probably other leading auto sport events) but that and other charity spending probably doesn't match his annual tax dodge, it might not even match his VAT dodging whilst flying around the world on a private plane, luckily for Hamilton climate change will not hit BAME people the hardest

Of course people are going to think differently about the world, and not everyone will consider just because he dodges social responsibility they shouldn't take at face value concerns he has about social responsibility, but I can tell you specifically does think Hamilton's tax dodging is an issue, Hamilton and his staff, because they've said they recognise it's a problem given the comments he's made and he'll need/seek to address that, he just hasn't addressed it that I'm aware of. Though I recognise for me I'm more interested in him paying his taxes than making a speech about why it's not an issue.

"That you're aware of" is rather fucking massive caveat. Most rich people don't publicise the ins and outs of their giving.

If you've heard his defence, a defence he and his staff have conceded is going to be asked about in the face of his comments, then by all means mention it. I basically only watch the F1 races, I don't follow the written press around F1, and I don't follow anyone on social media, so it's possible he's put out a defence I've not heard.

If the query here isn't about Hamilton's defence of his tax dodging whilst commenting on social equality and rather that rich people give in lieu of taxes then that's not really a take on the situation that interests me. Firstly even if he paid his tax he'd still be hugely wealthy and able to donate to causes he admires backed by considerable sums, second I don't want a society where the rich cherry pick their areas of interest, I want services provided across society backed by people paying their fair share in taxation. Or put another way, Oliver by Dickens isn't a heart warming story for me, the ending sees one random child plucked from abject poverty and lifted into a life of privilege whilst the masses are left behind

Stom wrote:

Stom wrote:

Digby wrote:It's a lesser thing assuming you're not earning the millions each month Hamilton will.

That said if you're merely asking does that you're a former staffer to Boris Johnson who left the UK to live in a low tax regime run by a dictator inform how I'd take your commentary on the woes of Corbyn and his ilk in the UK then the answer to that is yes. It doesn't mean you don't have a point, just as concerns about Hamilton's conflicting stance doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.

If someone is doing what they're doing to just try and get by for their family it's one thing, though even then if everyone did that there's a problem in society, doing it on the level Hamilton does it whilst still wrapping oneself in the Union Flag..., well it bothers me. I will not be the only one it bothers, though there'll be plenty who aren't bothered by it or consider it distinct from his comments on BLM

I was never a staffer!!!

And so your ability to be a proud Brit is dependent on where you pay your tax?

I mean, it’s very different between someone who lives in the UK but fiddles their taxes to someone who lives in another country. And Hamilton doesn’t live in the UK.

Actually, that is one of the sticks used to beat him with, that he lives in America and acts more American than British, while the same people complain about his tax arrangements when they’ve just complained he doesn’t even live in the Uk.

Button never got the same criticism, maybe because he was a stereotypical white playboy, not a black kid with actual interests outside of his sport

I'm not criticising Hamilton because he's black, but because he's turning around and lecturing other people about social justice whilst fecking off to avoid paying his tax that would (or could) help deliver some of that justice. I even noted it was very similar behaviour to that of Bono, and I didn't single Bono out because he's white.

Aside from the tax dodging I don't take to Hamilton a lot as a person, but he's an F1 driver and they tend to have rather large egos. I do admire him hugely as a driver, and he's the driver I'd be hoping to take the pole and the race wins because he's the leading British driver, I'm just not much of a fan away from the driving side.

Digby wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Digby wrote:
Maybe a lot of F1 drivers base themselves in Monaco (or Switzerland as Hamilton did for a period) simply for the love of the place, or maybe Gerhard Burger gave the only honest answer when asked why he was based there and said simply, tax.

Hamilton does spend a decent chunk of cash on various scholarship programmes aimed at developing the number of black engineers in F1 (and probably other leading auto sport events) but that and other charity spending probably doesn't match his annual tax dodge, it might not even match his VAT dodging whilst flying around the world on a private plane, luckily for Hamilton climate change will not hit BAME people the hardest

Of course people are going to think differently about the world, and not everyone will consider just because he dodges social responsibility they shouldn't take at face value concerns he has about social responsibility, but I can tell you specifically does think Hamilton's tax dodging is an issue, Hamilton and his staff, because they've said they recognise it's a problem given the comments he's made and he'll need/seek to address that, he just hasn't addressed it that I'm aware of. Though I recognise for me I'm more interested in him paying his taxes than making a speech about why it's not an issue.

"That you're aware of" is rather fucking massive caveat. Most rich people don't publicise the ins and outs of their giving.

If you've heard his defence, a defence he and his staff have conceded is going to be asked about in the face of his comments, then by all means mention it. I basically only watch the F1 races, I don't follow the written press around F1, and I don't follow anyone on social media, so it's possible he's put out a defence I've not heard.

If the query here isn't about Hamilton's defence of his tax dodging whilst commenting on social equality and rather that rich people give in lieu of taxes then that's not really a take on the situation that interests me. Firstly even if he paid his tax he'd still be hugely wealthy and able to donate to causes he admires backed by considerable sums, second I don't want a society where the rich cherry pick their areas of interest, I want services provided across society backed by people paying their fair share in taxation. Or put another way, Oliver by Dickens isn't a heart warming story for me, the ending sees one random child plucked from abject poverty and lifted into a life of privilege whilst the masses are left behind

Call me old fashioned, and maybe it's the product of my training, but I rather go for innocent until proven guilty. He pays HIS tax and doesn't dodge it, unless you're making a tax evasion argument. That he acknowledges that the optics are bad is not the same as there being an actual issue. i have no idea whether he gives a british tax equivalent in charity. I have no idea whether he's living in Monaco simply to avoid british tax or because he doesn't want to be taxed twice - many countries insist on tax being levied where it's earned in the absence of international agreement, and Monaco is for obvious reasons the master of those agreements.

My point remains, he either has a point or he doesn't. His hypocrisy is far from proven. Even if it were it wouldn't mean that he didn't have a point.