RugbyRebels

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:41 pm Slightly off topic but are we in the delightful position of returning to ‘Replacements’

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:59 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:07 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:47 pm


Ah, I have a mental block there. Banquo will re-consign me to the naughty step for saying it, but I'd restrict SHs to, say, six kicks per game. Do any of them pass by default these days, or, even dare to run with the ball?

Did I hear someone summoning my hobby horse - "Kicking from the base of a ruck should be banned as an ELV for a year to see what happens"?

Puja

What happens would probably be the over use of the term "spiral bomb" (again).

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:25 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:59 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:07 pm

Did I hear someone summoning my hobby horse - "Kicking from the base of a ruck should be banned as an ELV for a year to see what happens"?

Puja

What happens would probably be the over use of the term "spiral bomb" (again).

I'll take it. A pass back to the 10 means that at least the ball is in play and something can happen - the ball can be fumbled, the 10 can be tackled, there's even a slight chance that they might see there's space and change their mind to a chip, cross-field, or even a pass to a teammate . Kicking from the base means the ball is effectively dead and it's basically a set piece restart. Might as well be a mark.

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:22 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:07 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:48 am

I think I'd rather say different kicking games. And it's not like we've never criticised Youngs for absolutely appalling kicking...hmm...I wonder...

In the past a good scrum half was reckoned as one who could consistently throw a long, fast and accurate pass to his 10, so that the fly half could get on with his traditional business of running the game. An almost invisible link, like, say - Peter Stringer.
Along came a successful team or two from France who changed all that by giving the pre-eminent, pivitol, decision making role to the SH. Now things have evolved to where there is a generation of dull, mediocre SHs out there who are not particularly good at passing, kicking, decision making, breaking or anything else.
I blame it all on the Frogs.

The French have been dping that forvever, or at least since Fouroux....

Spiffy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:44 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:22 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:07 pm

In the past a good scrum half was reckoned as one who could consistently throw a long, fast and accurate pass to his 10, so that the fly half could get on with his traditional business of running the game. An almost invisible link, like, say - Peter Stringer.
Along came a successful team or two from France who changed all that by giving the pre-eminent, pivitol, decision making role to the SH. Now things have evolved to where there is a generation of dull, mediocre SHs out there who are not particularly good at passing, kicking, decision making, breaking or anything else.
I blame it all on the Frogs.

The French have been dping that forvever, or at least since Fouroux....

I am too young to remember.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:44 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:22 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:07 pm

In the past a good scrum half was reckoned as one who could consistently throw a long, fast and accurate pass to his 10, so that the fly half could get on with his traditional business of running the game. An almost invisible link, like, say - Peter Stringer.
Along came a successful team or two from France who changed all that by giving the pre-eminent, pivitol, decision making role to the SH. Now things have evolved to where there is a generation of dull, mediocre SHs out there who are not particularly good at passing, kicking, decision making, breaking or anything else.
I blame it all on the Frogs.

The French have been dping that forvever, or at least since Fouroux....

I am too young to remember.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:55 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:44 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:22 pm

The French have been dping that forvever, or at least since Fouroux....

I am too young to remember.

I blame Welsh SH Robert Jones. He was the first SH to make the box-kick his default action, though whether it was his idea or the coaches', who knows.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:55 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:44 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:22 pm

The French have been dping that forvever, or at least since Fouroux....

I am too young to remember.

I blame Welsh SH Robert Jones. He was the first SH to make the box-kick his default action, though whether it was his idea or the coaches', who knows.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:26 am Borthwick has said he expects to be in charge of Tigers game Vs Clermont next week so doesn't sound like he's going to join the RFU immediately. Maybe in time for the 6N.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:12 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:26 am Borthwick has said he expects to be in charge of Tigers game Vs Clermont next week so doesn't sound like he's going to join the RFU immediately. Maybe in time for the 6N.

That's a bit rubbish.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:20 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:12 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:26 am Borthwick has said he expects to be in charge of Tigers game Vs Clermont next week so doesn't sound like he's going to join the RFU immediately. Maybe in time for the 6N.

That's a bit rubbish.

Not for Tigers. Doubt it'll make much difference for England.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:09 pm Relax, Cockers is at the helm.

Getting Borthwick in ASAP would be desirable but the squad wont get picked and meet up till mid January so if it does take a few weeks to sort out its manageable.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:06 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:55 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:44 am

I am too young to remember.

I blame Welsh SH Robert Jones. He was the first SH to make the box-kick his default action, though whether it was his idea or the coaches', who knows.

I’ll think you’ll find it was Clive Rowland in about 1963!!

You sure it was Robert Jones- really good 9 with a great pass- wales were a bit mad I thought not picking him much after 1993/4 and selecting Rupert Moon.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:12 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:09 pm Relax, Cockers is at the helm.

Getting Borthwick in ASAP would be desirable but the squad wont get picked and meet up till mid January so if it does take a few weeks to sort out its manageable.

Again, now would be way better (for England for sure and Tigers tbh- lots of folks in limbo for a month or so)- can definitely use this time to get round clubs, talk to players etc etc. Losing roughly 10% of the time between now and the RWC seems a waste- and I'd think players would probably want to know where they stand.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:34 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:12 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:09 pm Relax, Cockers is at the helm.

Getting Borthwick in ASAP would be desirable but the squad wont get picked and meet up till mid January so if it does take a few weeks to sort out its manageable.

Again, now would be way better (for England for sure and Tigers tbh- lots of folks in limbo for a month or so)- can definitely use this time to get round clubs, talk to players etc etc. Losing roughly 10% of the time between now and the RWC seems a waste- and I'd think players would probably want to know where they stand.

The players know where they stand, Borthwick is incoming. He can pass his messages onto the incumbent England coaches to pass onto players at other clubs. He's also going to be well aware of the other players in the same league he coaches in. He's a workaholic who loves going into great detail with his analysis. I'm sure as soon he gets the green light he'll have his list of potential players being given instructions whether he's still at Tigers or joining the RFU straightaway.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 1:00 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:06 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:55 am

I blame Welsh SH Robert Jones. He was the first SH to make the box-kick his default action, though whether it was his idea or the coaches', who knows.

I’ll think you’ll find it was Clive Rowland in about 1963!!

You sure it was Robert Jones- really good 9 with a great pass- wales were a bit mad I thought not picking him much after 1993/4 and selecting Rupert Moon.

Ah, your memory may be better than mine. I remember (I think) Bill Beaumont, a quality co-commentator then, using the expression 'box-kick' - the first time I remember hearing it. He went on to describe Jones as the best exponent. It was that commentary statement that sticks in my mind. Bearing in mind that Wales always used to have quality FHs, all of whom kicked well, it seemed an odd tactic then.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:41 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:34 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:12 pm

Again, now would be way better (for England for sure and Tigers tbh- lots of folks in limbo for a month or so)- can definitely use this time to get round clubs, talk to players etc etc. Losing roughly 10% of the time between now and the RWC seems a waste- and I'd think players would probably want to know where they stand.

The players know where they stand, Borthwick is incoming. He can pass his messages onto the incumbent England coaches to pass onto players at other clubs. He's also going to be well aware of the other players in the same league he coaches in. He's a workaholic who loves going into great detail with his analysis. I'm sure as soon he gets the green light he'll have his list of potential players being given instructions whether he's still at Tigers or joining the RFU straightaway.

whatevs, still think he and we would be better off by starting asap. We certainly wouldn't be worse off for avoiding a game of chinese whispers and some proper contact tween head coach and players- I'm sure he's analysed them etc but nothing beats actually seeing them in training and face to face. There's no way he should be still doing anything at Tigers once appointed, its a conflict of interest or summat.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:49 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:41 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:34 pm

The players know where they stand, Borthwick is incoming. He can pass his messages onto the incumbent England coaches to pass onto players at other clubs. He's also going to be well aware of the other players in the same league he coaches in. He's a workaholic who loves going into great detail with his analysis. I'm sure as soon he gets the green light he'll have his list of potential players being given instructions whether he's still at Tigers or joining the RFU straightaway.

whatevs, still think he and we would be better off by starting asap. We certainly wouldn't be worse off for avoiding a game of chinese whispers and some proper contact tween head coach and players- I'm sure he's analysed them etc but nothing beats actually seeing them in training and face to face. There's no way he should be still doing anything at Tigers once appointed, its a conflict of interest or summat.

Alignment of interest. You want Tigers firing and their EQ talent being developed for both club and country.

He's not going to get to take a training session until the 6N so it'd just be him standing in the sidelines watching the players do something that may or may not be if any interest to him, if he's just calling in on clubs.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:51 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:49 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:41 pm
whatevs, still think he and we would be better off by starting asap. We certainly wouldn't be worse off for avoiding a game of chinese whispers and some proper contact tween head coach and players- I'm sure he's analysed them etc but nothing beats actually seeing them in training and face to face. There's no way he should be still doing anything at Tigers once appointed, its a conflict of interest or summat.

Alignment of interest. You want Tigers firing and their EQ talent being developed for both club and country.

He's not going to get to take a training session until the 6N so it'd just be him standing in the sidelines watching the players do something that may or may not be if any interest to him, if he's just calling in on clubs.

We''ll have to disagree. I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want him to start straight away.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:54 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:51 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:49 pm

Alignment of interest. You want Tigers firing and their EQ talent being developed for both club and country.

He's not going to get to take a training session until the 6N so it'd just be him standing in the sidelines watching the players do something that may or may not be if any interest to him, if he's just calling in on clubs.

We''ll have to disagree. I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want him to start straight away.

I'm also a Tigers fan and his limited impact with England before the 6N would be considerably more disruptive to Tigers who the RFU don't seem to worried about feckin over mid season.