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Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:50 am
by Banquo
FKAS wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:03 am "Freddie Steward is free to play immediately after an independent Disciplinary Committee chose not to uphold his red card from the Guinness Six Nations game between Ireland and England on Saturday in Dublin.

The judgement is available to read below:

England fullback Freddie Steward appeared before an independent Disciplinary Committee via video link having received a red card in the Guinness Six Nations match between Ireland and England on Saturday 18th March 2023 played at the Aviva Stadium.

The Red Card was issued as a result of the Referee concluding that the Player had acted contrary to Law 9.13 (A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. Dangerous tackling includes, but is not limited to, tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders),

The independent Disciplinary Committee consisting of Nigel Hampton KC – Chair (New Zealand), Frank Hadden (Scotland) and John Langford (Australia) heard the case, and considered all the available evidence, including multiple broadcast angles and submissions from the Player and his representative.

After hearing the submissions, the Disciplinary Committee formally amended the Law which was breached to Law 9.11 (Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including leading with the elbow or forearm, or jumping into, or over, a tackler.)

The player denied that he had committed an act of foul play worthy of a red card as described in Law 9.11. Having reviewed all the evidence, the Committee decided that: (i) head contact with an opposing player had occurred; (ii) there had been an act of foul play in breach of Law 9.11 in that the Player had been reckless in his actions and in his upright positioning as he approached and came into highly dangerous contact with the other player; and (iii) there were sufficient mitigating factors including the late change in the dynamics and positioning of the opposing player which should have resulted in the issue of a yellow card rather than a red card.

On that basis, the Committee did not uphold the red card and the player is free to play again immediately.

The Committee acknowledged that match officials are required to make decisions under pressure and in the heat of a live match environment."
Peyper and the tmo should be suspended pending re-training.

I did think it would be deemed sufficient punishment, but not that it would be overturned.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:51 am
by Banquo
Mikey Brown wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:30 am Now would probably be the perfect time for a rematch. I bet the whole Ireland squad are an absolute mess.
see the clip of the bu55ers singing Swing Low in the changing room? Very funny.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:19 am
by FKAS
Oakboy wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:40 am Foul play? Reckless? How did they manage to conclude that? I still don't think it was even a penalty, never mind a yellow card.
Bit of saving face for the officials.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:50 am
by stepsider
Jaco + TMO an utter disgrace. Pure showboating. Cost us whatever chance we had.

Amazed the Stewards Enquiry (geddit?) exercised even a modicum of common sense, agree it was a penalty at worst.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:04 pm
by Banquo
the TMO-ing in the 6N generally was poor, and a bit random as to what they picked up frankly. Time for a ....review ;)

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:05 pm
by Mellsblue
You knew it was a farce when the phrase ‘in the current climate’ was uttered.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:36 pm
by Mikey Brown
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:05 pm You knew it was a farce when the phrase ‘in the current climate’ was uttered.
Yeah I thought that was bizarre too. It seemed to completely undermine what he was saying, which was then wrong anyway.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:42 pm
by p/d
Oakboy wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:40 am Foul play? Reckless? How did they manage to conclude that? I still don't think it was even a penalty, never mind a yellow card.
This.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:10 pm
by fivepointer
Peyper and the TMO boxed themselves into a corner when they ruled out any mitigation. It was plain there was mitigation aplenty but the officials refused to consider what was right in front of them.
There has to be a balance. We have to try and get better habits from players and reducing head contacts is non negotiable. But some degree of commonsense and empathy needs to come into the decision making process.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:56 pm
by Big D
FKAS wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:19 am
Oakboy wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:40 am Foul play? Reckless? How did they manage to conclude that? I still don't think it was even a penalty, never mind a yellow card.
Bit of saving face for the officials.
I think it is an acknowledgement that the laws are not clear. If Peyper and the TMO decide it was a "tackle" which was highly reckless then mitigation can't be applied. The committee seem to have determined that it was reckless.

They really need to allow some subjectivity for the refs to use in their judgement.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:01 pm
by Oakboy
fivepointer wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:10 pm Peyper and the TMO boxed themselves into a corner when they ruled out any mitigation. It was plain there was mitigation aplenty but the officials refused to consider what was right in front of them.
There has to be a balance. We have to try and get better habits from players and reducing head contacts is non negotiable. But some degree of commonsense and empathy needs to come into the decision making process.
All fair comment but if a player stoops to pick up a ball and does a flying head-butt into a defender's arm giving the defender no time to react, for officials to even consider blaming the defender is just farcical. IMO, the officials in this incident were clueless generally and the review panel were only marginally better. Yes, no further action is decreed but I think Steward should have been deemed innocent of all charges - not let off conditionally to save the officials' faces.

The whole thing leaves a bad taste.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:09 pm
by stepsider
Only just seen Shaun Edwards' take on this (i.e. supporting Steward):

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... rcise.html

Not sure how that will go with World Rugby.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:47 pm
by Spiffy
Oakboy wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:01 pm
fivepointer wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:10 pm Peyper and the TMO boxed themselves into a corner when they ruled out any mitigation. It was plain there was mitigation aplenty but the officials refused to consider what was right in front of them.
There has to be a balance. We have to try and get better habits from players and reducing head contacts is non negotiable. But some degree of commonsense and empathy needs to come into the decision making process.
All fair comment but if a player stoops to pick up a ball and does a flying head-butt into a defender's arm giving the defender no time to react, for officials to even consider blaming the defender is just farcical. IMO, the officials in this incident were clueless generally and the review panel were only marginally better. Yes, no further action is decreed but I think Steward should have been deemed innocent of all charges - not let off conditionally to save the officials' faces.

The whole thing leaves a bad taste.
First - it was not a "flying" head-butt, since in rugby terminology, flying means feet off the ground.
Second - it was not a "head-butt", and all that that implies, at all.
Your post seems to carry some suggestion that Keenan was responsible for his own fate.
As a Mick, I did think it was NOT a red card offence, and said so at the time. It was an unfortunate incident. That said, I feel that Steward did get himself well braced with his shoulder turned in (probably a reflex action), but might have been able do just a tad more to absorb and soften the force of impact.
A yellow card would probably have been fair enough all round, but given the choice only between a red card or no action at all, I would have preferred no action. The card does take some of the shine off an Ireland win, but I doubt that a full England XV would have won the game anyway.

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:06 am
by jngf
Just read Steward’s red cad has been downgraded to yellow - Ireland would still have won imo but this indicates refs might need further clarity / training to interpret the rules regarding high contact ?

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:08 am
by Mikey Brown
Hot scoop!

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:08 am
by Mellsblue
Anyone know the outcome of Steward’s disciplinary hearing etc etc

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:05 am
by 16th man
I'm not sure what more training and clarity you can offer to a guy who sends off Steward, but shrugs off the shoulder charge to Ludlam's head as not worthy of review

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:38 pm
by p/d
Mellsblue wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:08 am Anyone know the outcome of Steward’s disciplinary hearing etc etc
When was the hearing?

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:54 pm
by Mellsblue
p/d wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:38 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:08 am Anyone know the outcome of Steward’s disciplinary hearing etc etc
When was the hearing?
Haven’t you heard?

Re: Ireland to finish

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:20 am
by Spiffy
Keenan supportive of Steward. Acknowledges accidental collision. Good lad.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 00381.html