RugbyRebels

rowan wrote:A team of All Blacks captains:

IJ Clarke, SBT Fitzpatrick, WJ Whineray, GW Whetton, RD Thorne, RH McCaw, GNK Mourie, KJ Read, DE Kirk, JL Griffths, JF Umaga, FR Allen, JB Smith, SS Wilson, JM Muliaina.

Strangely there does not appear to have been a post-WWII first-five captain, even though that is a key decision-making position. In fact, it seems it was never a popular choice, with only a few players ever captaining the All Blacks from number 10, and none of them for more than a few tests. Prop has also fallen out of favor since Wilson Whineray in the late 50s and early 60s, which seems a little odd given his 22 wins from 30 tests as captain (they didn't come so easy back then, esp. v SA, and no tests v minnows). In fact, I've included him at tighthead, where he only played a few games, because I don't think a tighthead specialist has ever led NZ in a test match. The only other position which appears NEVER to have produced a test captain is left wing, so I've selected Tana Umaga there, although I believe he actually captained the side from center. Increasingly over the past few decades the All Blacks captains have come from the back row trio or hooker positions.

Fred Allen captained from 1st 5/8 immediately after WWII, I think.

That's the way I remembered it. But when I looked it up it said 2/5. Also, he only captained them in a few tests. I thought it was more but perhaps was confused with his coaching career.

Anyways, we could always put him at 10, bring in Ron Elvidge at 12 (he also played center), & drop Griffiths altogether. Wouldn't make much difference either way. None of them captained the All Blacks more than a few times.

I would have sworn that Dan Carter captained a test against a minnow side once. Seems he didn't. Maybe he just took over after the real captain went off or something?

I was having similar thoughts about Fox & Mehrtens. Did they captain the side in a non-international perhaps?

Andy Haden and Murray Mexted never captaining the side seems a bit odd too, given their long & distinguished All Blacks careers and obvious intelligence. I seem to recall both had a stint in the midweek games during the Cavaliers tour, but (if so) that appears to have been about it. I guess some players, for whatever reason, just weren't considered right for the job.

Just read that Mexted actually captained the All Blacks on 7 occasions but he is not listed among New Zealand's test captains, suggesting they were all non-internationals. Not surprising, really, given the bulk of the All Blacks fixtures on tour used to be against club and provincial teams, back in the amateur days.

Lizard wrote:I would have sworn that Dan Carter captained a test against a minnow side once. Seems he didn't. Maybe he just took over after the real captain went off or something?

He was named captain for the team to play Canada at the 2011 RWC, but then we know what happened at that captain's run.

Ah - that's what I was thinking of. Thanks.

rowan wrote:Just read that Mexted actually captained the All Blacks on 7 occasions but he is not listed among New Zealand's test captains, suggesting they were all non-internationals. Not surprising, really, given the bulk of the All Blacks fixtures on tour used to be against club and provincial teams, back in the amateur days.

Mexted was a dirt-tracker captain during the 1984 tour of Australia (v Queensland B, 37-0; South Australia, 99-0; Victoria, 65-3; NSW Country, 21-3; NSW B, 21-15 - aggregate score 243-21) and again in the mini-tour later that year to Fiji (v Eastern XV, 58-0). He also captained in one game during the 1985 tour of Argentina (v Rosario Selection, 28-9). The All Blacks didn't award caps for the matches v Fiji and Argentina on those tours although their hosts did.

Haden captained the All Blacks 8 times. Once in the 1979 tour of Eng/Sco/Ital (v Anglo-Scots,* 18-9), 4 times on the 1980 tour of Aust/Fiji including another match in which Fiji awarded caps but NZ didn't (v South Australia, 75-3; Aust Universities, 33-3; Suva, 33-4; Fiji 30-6) and three times on the 1981 tour of Romania and France (v Romania South, 25-9; Rousillon-Languedoc Selection, 6-6; Charentes-Poitou Selection, 17-13**).

*Who would make that team now?
** A fine illustration of the French penchant for putting out completely imaginary teams when NZ toured. The other non-test opposition was an Alsace-Lorraine Selection, an Auvergne Selection, an Aples Selection, and a French Barbarians side.

Thanks. Mexted in Argentina had crossed my mind while I was thinking about that, actually. It is not easy for me to research things from Turkey at the moment as Wikipedia are a few other useful sites are blocked.

I've often wondered who was behind those slightly weird tours in the '70s, early '80s - North America, Argentina/Uruguay, Romania, Fiji? I reckon Andy Haden liked a good holiday destination.

Looks a bit weird now, but back then Canada, Argentina, Romania and Fiji were clearly the 4 best teams outside of the IRB's 'Big 8,' with all but Fiji (due to its size, presumably) regarded as genuine threats tot he established order. Sadly only Argentina has fulfilled the prophecy.

Here's four key stats from the 23-man named squad.

68
Ben Smith will become the 68th player to captain the All Blacks. He will lead the side in his 61st test match. The last back to captain the All Blacks was Mils Muliaina in 2009. He captained New Zealand in three tests, the first of which was a defeat to France in Dunedin. The last captain from the Highlanders was Andrew Hore who was the skipper in the All Blacks 2011 World Cup pool game against Canada. 21 of the 68 players to have captained the All Blacks did so for just one test, and Smith is a chance to join that list with Kieran Read set to return to the role against the Lions.

There have been 13 Smiths who have played for the All Blacks and Ben Smith will become the second after Johnny Smith in 1949 to captain the side.

1158/1159
Hurricanes duo Vaea Fifita and Jordie Barrett are the two new caps in the squad and will become All Blacks 1158 and 1159. There were 11 new All Blacks last season.

There is a chance three Barretts will be on the field at the same time with Scott and Beauden also in the matchday 23. There are also two Saveas and two Smiths (not related)

50
Beauden Barrett will play his 50th test for the All Blacks tomorrow night. It will be his 20th test start. He will also be playing his first test against Samoa. He currently has 297 test points and is poised to be the fifth All Black to score 300 test points.

871
The All Blacks matchday 23 has a total of 871test caps. With Beauden Barrett bringing up his 50, there will be 10 players in the 23-man squad who would have played in at least 50 tests for the All Blacks. Owen Franks will be the most capped player on the field with his 91st appearance tomorrow night.

Franks has yet to score a test try in his 90 tests - while teammates Scott Barrett, Codie Taylor, Julian Savea and Sam Whitelock all scored on debut.

Wales in New Zealand

Wales will play its 22nd match on Kiwi soil tomorrow.

So far: Played 21, won 8, lost 13.

Of those 21, 10 were against the All Blacks. Those 10 tests are the 10 heaviest defeats Wales has suffered in NZ (margins of 14-52 points).

Of the 11 neutral tests:
v Ireland: played 2, won 2
v Australia: played 2, won 1, lost 1
v Canada, Fiji, Namibia, Samoa, Tonga: played 1, won 1
v France, South Africa: played 1, lost 1

This will be Wales' second test on neutral territory outside of World Cups and the Wembley era (1997-99). The first was in 1887, when Wales played Ireland in the Home Nations Championship in Birkenhead, Wirral. Apparently, Wales agreed to this venue because the IRFU couldn't afford to get its team all the way to Wales.

Which team has had the most players called Smith over the years? If we add Smits to story what difference does it make?

Not sure, but as of 2012 76 Jones' had been capped for Wales, 60 Davies,' 51 Williams,' 47 Evans' and 42 Thomas.'
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... williamses

I suspect a fair amount of inbreeding must have gone on in the valleys down the ages...

France were actually the first nation to win a series in South Africa last century, doing so with a win and a draw in 1958, just two years after the All Blacks, playing in NZ, had become the first nation to beat them in a series during the 20th century at all.

Johannesburg - The Springboks, remarkably, have never beaten France at Ellis Park.

The sides may have only met four times at the historic venue of the 1995 World Cup final, but France have won every one of those meetings.

The sides will face off there on Saturday in what will be their first meeting in Johannesburg since 2001.

On that day 16 years ago, France emerged with a 32-23 victory over a Bok side coached by Harry Viljoen.

Former flyhalf Butch James made his debut in that match.

Then, in 1993, the Boks lost 17-18 to the French at Ellis Park with their points coming from a James Small try and four Theo van Rensburg penalties.

The two other matches between the sides at the venue took place in 1958 and 1967 - South Africa losing both of those.

SA v France results at Ellis Park:

2001: SA 23-32 France

1993: SA 17-18 France

1967: SA 14-19 France

1958: SA 5-9 France

Hate this, when they still act like only 8 countries play the game: https://www.ruck.co.uk/rank-20-inspirat ... -captains/

Argentina's Hugo Porta, Italy's Sergio Parisse, and Samoa's Peter Fatalofia must be in there. Also Kazakhstan's Timur Mashurov, Madagascar's Jose Rakoto and the Czech Rep's Marty Kafka were other highly inspirational; national captains.

rowan wrote:Not sure, but as of 2012 76 Jones' had been capped for Wales, 60 Davies,' 51 Williams,' 47 Evans' and 42 Thomas.'
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... williamses

I suspect a fair amount of inbreeding must have gone on in the valleys down the ages...

There was a game a few years back where Wales broke the record for the number of people with the same surname lining up for an international match. It was something like 12. I'll try and find it.

Hmm not quite the 12, but an impressive 6, one of which is an old school mate (which is my only claim of playing in the same team as an international player )


WALES: G Thomas (Toulouse, capt); H Luscombe (Newport-Gwent Dragons), S Parker, G Henson (Neath-Swansea Ospreys), S Williams; Stephen Jones (Clermont Auvergne), D Peel (Llanelli); Duncan Jones (Ospreys), Steve Jones (Newport), A Jones, B Cockbain (Ospreys), M Owen (Newport), Dafydd Jones (Llanelli), C Charvis (Newcastle), R Jones (Ospreys).

The last time the All Blacks were 1 all in a bilateral test series was v Lions in 1993. As with the current series, Lions equalised in Wellington with the decider played at Eden Park

All Blacks' first loss at home in 48 games extending back to 2009. Also, I read it was their first red card in 50 years, apparently. Is that right? If 1967 was the last occasion, I'm guessing the culprit was a certain fellow with the nickname Pinetree...