RugbyRebels

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:What the fuck is he doing??? Why would you waste resources, time, and contested fucking air space for that?

While I have a great amount of disdain for Boris and regard him visiting people as a punishment rather than a boon, Kiev isn't really contested airspace anymore and I'd imagine we've informed the Russians of both his flight path and the repurcussions should they attack his flight. It's not really a big risk like it would've been a fortnight ago.

Puja

Agreed it's not the risk it would have been 2 weeks back, but I doubt we let the Russians know anything about it. 1) Boris's death at Russia's hands would have been a massive problem - how would we react exactly? 2) Boris wants to seem brave but he doesn't want to actually increase any risks on his life. 3) If the Russians were informed, why keep the trip secret from us?

morepork wrote:So Boris has good optics while Ukrainian families shelter in basements with their dead. Marvelous.

Never let a good war go to waste. Also, anything that keeps Johnson away from UK journalists asking questions about literally anything happening in the UK can only be good for his career.

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Not convinced it’s all about optics - polls are overwhelming in favour of taking in more refugees - just that it’s in his wheelhouse. Covid was about interpreting detail and being cautious, this about being a bit gung-ho, sod the consequences and let’s be positive. He’s also always been very critical of appeasement. Now, if we get into the cagey territory of teetering on the edge of provoking nuclear war we might hope covid has taught him some lessons….

Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

Everything in his previous writings and actions would point to this response but won’t get into an argument about it.

He wants to be Churchill and if he doesn’t have his own war then he’s quite happy to borrow someone else’s.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:What the fuck is he doing??? Why would you waste resources, time, and contested fucking air space for that?

While I have a great amount of disdain for Boris and regard him visiting people as a punishment rather than a boon, Kiev isn't really contested airspace anymore and I'd imagine we've informed the Russians of both his flight path and the repurcussions should they attack his flight. It's not really a big risk like it would've been a fortnight ago.

Puja

Agreed it's not the risk it would have been 2 weeks back, but I doubt we let the Russians know anything about it. 1) Boris's death at Russia's hands would have been a massive problem - how would we react exactly? 2) Boris wants to seem brave but he doesn't want to actually increase any risks on his life. 3) If the Russians were informed, why keep the trip secret from us?

I very much doubt that the Russians were given any details. Putin isn’t going to care that much and could easily engineer an ‘accident’. More likely security was kept very tight and the circle of knowledge very small.

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

Everything in his previous writings and actions would point to this response but won’t get into an argument about it.

He wants to be Churchill and if he doesn’t have his own war then he’s quite happy to borrow someone else’s.

I suppose we can only hope that Macron, Scholz and Dragi look to borrow someone else’s war, too.

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

Everything in his previous writings and actions would point to this response but won’t get into an argument about it.

He wants to be Churchill and if he doesn’t have his own war then he’s quite happy to borrow someone else’s.

Nail. Head. Hit.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:What the fuck is he doing??? Why would you waste resources, time, and contested fucking air space for that?

While I have a great amount of disdain for Boris and regard him visiting people as a punishment rather than a boon, Kiev isn't really contested airspace anymore and I'd imagine we've informed the Russians of both his flight path and the repurcussions should they attack his flight. It's not really a big risk like it would've been a fortnight ago.

Puja

Agreed it's not the risk it would have been 2 weeks back, but I doubt we let the Russians know anything about it. 1) Boris's death at Russia's hands would have been a massive problem - how would we react exactly? 2) Boris wants to seem brave but he doesn't want to actually increase any risks on his life. 3) If the Russians were informed, why keep the trip secret from us?

If he had flown, then I suspect we would've informed the Russians of his flight path, as it would've removed any chance of him being accidentally shot down with the Russians saying, "We didn't know; we thought it was a Nazi bomber." Inform them with a paper trail and they've got a vested interest in keeping him safe - while I'd give them a bunch of flowers, there's a very good chance that NATO would take the killing of a state leader as an act of war.

As he went by car, the whole thing is moot anyway.

Puja

Russia's failure to encircle Kyiv has created a massive path in and out of the city, and besides Johnson isn't even the first head of state or government to visit Zelenskyy since the start of the invasion - the PMs from the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland all paid a visit last month, for example.

Whilst the attention is on Johnson, he would have been accompanied and thus given a good opportunity for some moderately senior military people to have a chat with their Ukrainian counterparts and understand the exact picture.

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Everything in his previous writings and actions would point to this response but won’t get into an argument about it.

He wants to be Churchill and if he doesn’t have his own war then he’s quite happy to borrow someone else’s.

I suppose we can only hope that Macron, Scholz and Dragi look to borrow someone else’s war, too.

It would be great if they did. I think you’re missing my point. I agree with what Johnson is doing. But I think his motives for the full throttle support of Ukraine are as much to do with his own desire to appear Churchillian as they are out of sound strategic judgement. And this is a spin doctors dream to avoid attention on partygate. So right actions but I’m curious about the motives.

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
He wants to be Churchill and if he doesn’t have his own war then he’s quite happy to borrow someone else’s.

I suppose we can only hope that Macron, Scholz and Dragi look to borrow someone else’s war, too.

It would be great if they did. I think you’re missing my point. I agree with what Johnson is doing. But I think his motives for the full throttle support of Ukraine are as much to do with his own desire to appear Churchillian as they are out of sound strategic judgement. And this is a spin doctors dream to avoid attention on partygate. So right actions but I’m curious about the motives.

Not missing your point at all. I just disagree with it, as already stated.

Puja wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Puja wrote:
While I have a great amount of disdain for Boris and regard him visiting people as a punishment rather than a boon, Kiev isn't really contested airspace anymore and I'd imagine we've informed the Russians of both his flight path and the repurcussions should they attack his flight. It's not really a big risk like it would've been a fortnight ago.

Puja

Agreed it's not the risk it would have been 2 weeks back, but I doubt we let the Russians know anything about it. 1) Boris's death at Russia's hands would have been a massive problem - how would we react exactly? 2) Boris wants to seem brave but he doesn't want to actually increase any risks on his life. 3) If the Russians were informed, why keep the trip secret from us?

If he had flown, then I suspect we would've informed the Russians of his flight path, as it would've removed any chance of him being accidentally shot down with the Russians saying, "We didn't know; we thought it was a Nazi bomber." Inform them with a paper trail and they've got a vested interest in keeping him safe - while I'd give them a bunch of flowers, there's a very good chance that NATO would take the killing of a state leader as an act of war.
As he went by car, the whole thing is moot anyway.

Puja

Train apparently.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

morepork wrote:So Boris has good optics while Ukrainian families shelter in basements with their dead. Marvelous.

Never let a good war go to waste. Also, anything that keeps Johnson away from UK journalists asking questions about literally anything happening in the UK can only be good for his career.

The key question (for the Tory strategists and MPs) will be whether he can keep enough attention diverted until the May elections to avoid the complete whiteout that many are predicting.

No wonder civilians are being targeted so they leave towns & cities pronto..many reports of systematic looting both to force level (truckloads)and individual level (bag loads), everything going apart from the kitchen sink. Just the tip of the iceberg one suspects - not sure which model from history they are using, but it is sadly ironic.

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
Boris needs some positive optics and the Ukraininans need our weaponry. its a match made in convenience.

Not convinced it’s all about optics - polls are overwhelming in favour of taking in more refugees - just that it’s in his wheelhouse. Covid was about interpreting detail and being cautious, this about being a bit gung-ho, sod the consequences and let’s be positive. He’s also always been very critical of appeasement. Now, if we get into the cagey territory of teetering on the edge of provoking nuclear war we might hope covid has taught him some lessons….

Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

I think you're both right.

Fecking hell, I despise the 1922 committee. They are the epitome of all that is wrong with the UK. Total scum.

kk67 wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Not convinced it’s all about optics - polls are overwhelming in favour of taking in more refugees - just that it’s in his wheelhouse. Covid was about interpreting detail and being cautious, this about being a bit gung-ho, sod the consequences and let’s be positive. He’s also always been very critical of appeasement. Now, if we get into the cagey territory of teetering on the edge of provoking nuclear war we might hope covid has taught him some lessons….

Disagree. Only a few weeks ago he was trying to guess how many letters the Chair of the 1922 Committee had received so anything that makes him look statesmanlike is to be grabbed with both hands.Ukraine has allowed him to rebuild his own brand and following the weekends revelations, Sunak is dead in the water for a while so Boris is flying high again.

I think you're both right.

Fecking hell, I despise the 1922 committee. They are the epitome of all that is wrong with the UK. Total scum.

The beating heart of the Tory party.





... no, that can't be right. I just said the Tory party has a heart. Metaphor fail.

Flagship warship Moskva now at rest with the fishes..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61114843
'fire broke out, all crew evacuated, then sunk in heavy seas whist being towed to port'
or..
'we hit it with a Neptune anti-ship missile'
end result is that it's sailing days are over; the two narratives differ slightly but there is a war on.

Galfon wrote:the two narratives differ slightly but there is a war on.

And we believe anything that the Russian government says about anything because...

If Putin or any of his lackeys say it's raining outside, you'd better believe I'm going outside to check.

Also, the Russian narrative being all like "nuh-uh, it wasn't the Ukrainians, our flagship sunk because it's more like a flagshit!"


Fuckin' lol.

Apparently, the Russians are upset because Ukrainian fires have hit targets inside Russia. I must be misunderstanding their logic somewhere along the line.

And in other news, Boris and a few other British politicians have been sanctioned by the Russians and banned from ever visiting Russian territory. I'm sure they couldn't care less about that, but they may want to be careful if any perfume arrives unexpectedly in the post.

Sandydragon wrote:Apparently, the Russians are upset because Ukrainian fires have hit targets inside Russia. I must be misunderstanding their logic somewhere along the line.

Yeah, that puzzled me somewhat as well. Outraged at Ukraine's temerity to... {checks notes} "attack a neighbouring country's sovereign territory". How dare they. Entirely without precedent.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Apparently, the Russians are upset because Ukrainian fires have hit targets inside Russia. I must be misunderstanding their logic somewhere along the line.

Yeah, that puzzled me somewhat as well. Outraged at Ukraine's temerity to... {checks notes} "attack a neighbouring country's sovereign territory". How dare they. Entirely without precedent.

Puja

And there was me thinking that a few weeks ago the Russians were claiming that Ukraine didn’t really exist but was really part of Russia all along. So how can Ukraine have attacked a neighbouring country if they are actually part of Russia? Russian propaganda having a few logic issues.

And on another one I wouldn’t blame Ukraine if they decided to send a few rockets into Belarus. At the very least those Russian forces in Belarus must be fair game

Sandydragon wrote:

Puja wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Apparently, the Russians are upset because Ukrainian fires have hit targets inside Russia. I must be misunderstanding their logic somewhere along the line.

Yeah, that puzzled me somewhat as well. Outraged at Ukraine's temerity to... {checks notes} "attack a neighbouring country's sovereign territory". How dare they. Entirely without precedent.

Puja

And there was me thinking that a few weeks ago the Russians were claiming that Ukraine didn’t really exist but was really part of Russia all along. So how can Ukraine have attacked a neighbouring country if they are actually part of Russia? Russian propaganda having a few logic issues.

And on another one I wouldn’t blame Ukraine if they decided to send a few rockets into Belarus. At the very least those Russian forces in Belarus must be fair game

Mind, the Belarussian army isn't technically involved as things stand. Not that I suspect they're a massive threat to anyone, but probably not worthwhile inviting another invasion.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Puja wrote:
Yeah, that puzzled me somewhat as well. Outraged at Ukraine's temerity to... {checks notes} "attack a neighbouring country's sovereign territory". How dare they. Entirely without precedent.

Puja

And there was me thinking that a few weeks ago the Russians were claiming that Ukraine didn’t really exist but was really part of Russia all along. So how can Ukraine have attacked a neighbouring country if they are actually part of Russia? Russian propaganda having a few logic issues.

And on another one I wouldn’t blame Ukraine if they decided to send a few rockets into Belarus. At the very least those Russian forces in Belarus must be fair game

Mind, the Belarussian army isn't technically involved as things stand. Not that I suspect they're a massive threat to anyone, but probably not worthwhile inviting another invasion.

Puja

Permitting Russian forces to invade and fire artillery from your territory isn’t exactly the act of a neutral. But I suspect thenUkrainians don’t want another front to fight on, but Belarus needs a reckoning from this.

Sandydragon wrote:

Puja wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: And there was me thinking that a few weeks ago the Russians were claiming that Ukraine didn’t really exist but was really part of Russia all along. So how can Ukraine have attacked a neighbouring country if they are actually part of Russia? Russian propaganda having a few logic issues.

And on another one I wouldn’t blame Ukraine if they decided to send a few rockets into Belarus. At the very least those Russian forces in Belarus must be fair game

Mind, the Belarussian army isn't technically involved as things stand. Not that I suspect they're a massive threat to anyone, but probably not worthwhile inviting another invasion.

Puja

Permitting Russian forces to invade and fire artillery from your territory isn’t exactly the act of a neutral. But I suspect thenUkrainians don’t want another front to fight on, but Belarus needs a reckoning from this.

Pretty much. The bombing raids attacking Kyiv are coming from Belarussian airfields as well, but they've not really got an option to rebuke that if they want to match Russia in the east.

Puja