Europe - in or out - RR Votes

[Stones of granite]

I have a sneaky feeling it is going to be kicked down the road ad infinitum

It looks like the EU aren't gonna play that game.
The UK is like the boy who has a tantrum about nothing and takes his ball home with him. Except this time his mates are waving him goodbye because they've got another ball.

Interesting. How do the EU take the ball away? Eject the UK from the EU? Is that even possible?

[Banquo]

I have a sneaky feeling it is going to be kicked down the road ad infinitum

It looks like the EU aren't gonna play that game.
The UK is like the boy who has a tantrum about nothing and takes his ball home with him. Except this time his mates are waving him goodbye because they've got another ball.

the EU actually have no say in it. It is up to us.

[Stones of granite]

Any of you betting chaps any idea if the bookies are taking bets on when, or even if, the UK Government follows through on Article 50 formal notification.

I have a sneaky feeling it is going to be kicked down the road ad infinitum

One wonders what the UKIP election campaign will be fought on if Article 50 hasn't been invoked

Actually I think we do need to remove quite quickly on this, I may have hatred in my heart for the result but such is democracy, and we need to remove the uncertainty for us and for the EU asap, and I keep going back to this but BRexit need to tell us what they want to negotiate in the existing treaties as a sodding starting point.

Farage and his snearing in the European Parliament today aside, I haven't heard anything from any of the Leave campaign leaders to suggest that anything is going to happen anytime soon.

[Banquo]

Any of you betting chaps any idea if the bookies are taking bets on when, or even if, the UK Government follows through on Article 50 formal notification.

I have a sneaky feeling it is going to be kicked down the road ad infinitum

One wonders what the UKIP election campaign will be fought on if Article 50 hasn't been invoked

Actually I think we do need to remove quite quickly on this, I may have hatred in my heart for the result but such is democracy, and we need to remove the uncertainty for us and for the EU asap, and I keep going back to this but BRexit need to tell us what they want to negotiate in the existing treaties as a sodding starting point.

who might that be? They don't exist now. That was a campaign, not an execution arm. That's why they could tell the porkies.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

"Project Fear" is alive and well - with the abuse of immigrants.
etc etc.

I'm sure you'll all be amazed that this has been eating at me a bit.
I have reported the abuse to my MP, and asked him to publicly condemn such behaviour; I have also reported it to the police who are logging it for statistical purposes, but otherwise there's not a lot they can do - which is important in and of itself. My MP has so far condemned the behaviour... in a private email to myself, but nothing seems to have appeared in the press, twitter or facebook. The cops are sending a community officer around to talk about CCTV type options.

This stuff is happening, and far worse than Ali and I have suffered, and twitter / facebook seems to be full of people witnessing abuse, sitting there quietly and tweeting about how awful it was.

IMO it is incumbent upon all of us to actively object to abuse; to (intellectually) confront and challenge the abuser, to publicly offer our support to the victim we have just witnessed; and to do so in a way that leaves no doubt in the abuser's mind that their behaviour was unacceptable.
Currently the racists and biggots seem to think that the leave vote is a mandate to spout their hatred. It is no such thing; and we all need to make this point to them.

There is a petition at change.org asking the home office to condemn the behaviour; pity it's not on petition.parliament.uk, but there we go.
I urge anyone on here to sign that petition; to email their MP to publicly oppose biggotry; and I would urge anyone who actually witnesses abuse to step up and confront it. I urge victims to report it, to their MP and to the police.
As Edmund Burke said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".

Actually the police can and should be doing something about it and I suggest you ring them back and tell them so. I'd say it's racially aggravated intentional causing of harassment alarm and distress - punishable by up to 2 years in prison. You should write down a description as best as you can as soon as you can and sign and date it (or electronic equivalent). In fact I'd record everything that you can remember about the incident in a note and sign and date it because that can easily be transfered into a statement. Tracking down one random person might be difficult but the minimum they should do is record it as a crime and circulate the description. I doubt this is the only crime this person has committed. If they don't do anything after you've reported it again then say you want to escalate it to a senior officer as you are concerned that nothing is being done about a racist incident. If nothing happens after that contact your police and crime commissioner.

[Digby]

I have a sneaky feeling it is going to be kicked down the road ad infinitum

It looks like the EU aren't gonna play that game.
The UK is like the boy who has a tantrum about nothing and takes his ball home with him. Except this time his mates are waving him goodbye because they've got another ball.

Interesting. How do the EU take the ball away? Eject the UK from the EU? Is that even possible?

It's all politics outside of the UK invoking article 50, so the EU can apply pressure, and perhaps even look to structure a more painful deal for the UK if there's delay (though that could go both ways), but there's not a lot to be done

[kk67]

I have a sneaky feeling it is going to be kicked down the road ad infinitum

It looks like the EU aren't gonna play that game.
The UK is like the boy who has a tantrum about nothing and takes his ball home with him. Except this time his mates are waving him goodbye because they've got another ball.

Interesting. How do the EU take the ball away? Eject the UK from the EU? Is that even possible?

There are quite a few balls they could find. London being the financial capital of the world for a start,.....Heathrow being the main hub.

[kk67]

I have a sneaky feeling it is going to be kicked down the road ad infinitum

It looks like the EU aren't gonna play that game.
The UK is like the boy who has a tantrum about nothing and takes his ball home with him. Except this time his mates are waving him goodbye because they've got another ball.

the EU actually have no say in it. It is up to us.

Merkel and Junker have already made it clear that kicking it into the long grass ad infinitum is not an option.
It's not just the UK that is already losing billions as a result of the referendum. I see lots of people claiming the shares and currency will bounce back fairly soon but I see no reason for this to happen. We're primarily an importer of manufactured goods and an exporter of services.....there is no solid foundation for supposing the pound will bounce back.

[Stones of granite]

It looks like the EU aren't gonna play that game.
The UK is like the boy who has a tantrum about nothing and takes his ball home with him. Except this time his mates are waving him goodbye because they've got another ball.

Interesting. How do the EU take the ball away? Eject the UK from the EU? Is that even possible?

There are quite a few balls they could find. London being the financial capital of the world for a start,.....Heathrow being the main hub.

I don't understand.
1. How does the EU influence the position of London as the financial capital of the world?
2. Heathrow has only just got it's nose ahead of CDG and no more, and it will lose that position in the next few years anyway because of a lack of runways. However, again, how does the EU affect this?

[Stones of granite]

It looks like the EU aren't gonna play that game.
The UK is like the boy who has a tantrum about nothing and takes his ball home with him. Except this time his mates are waving him goodbye because they've got another ball.

the EU actually have no say in it. It is up to us.

Merkel and Junker have already made it clear that kicking it into the long grass ad infinitum is not an option.
It's not just the UK that is already losing billions as a result of the referendum. I see lots of people claiming the shares and currency will bounce back fairly soon but I see no reason for this to happen. We're primarily an importer of manufactured goods and an exporter of services.....there is no solid foundation for supposing the pound will bounce back.

What can they do about it?

[Banquo]

It looks like the EU aren't gonna play that game.
The UK is like the boy who has a tantrum about nothing and takes his ball home with him. Except this time his mates are waving him goodbye because they've got another ball.

the EU actually have no say in it. It is up to us.

Merkel and Junker have already made it clear that kicking it into the long grass ad infinitum is not an option.
It's not just the UK that is already losing billions as a result of the referendum. I see lots of people claiming the shares and currency will bounce back fairly soon but I see no reason for this to happen. We're primarily an importer of manufactured goods and an exporter of services.....there is no solid foundation for supposing the pound will bounce back.

so what's their remedy? What else would expect them to say?

I fully understand the losses and the reasons. There has been a dead cat bounce today though.

[Digby]

Any of you betting chaps any idea if the bookies are taking bets on when, or even if, the UK Government follows through on Article 50 formal notification.

I have a sneaky feeling it is going to be kicked down the road ad infinitum

One wonders what the UKIP election campaign will be fought on if Article 50 hasn't been invoked

Actually I think we do need to remove quite quickly on this, I may have hatred in my heart for the result but such is democracy, and we need to remove the uncertainty for us and for the EU asap, and I keep going back to this but BRexit need to tell us what they want to negotiate in the existing treaties as a sodding starting point.

who might that be? They don't exist now. That was a campaign, not an execution arm. That's why they could tell the porkies.

I concede in reality they've no idea what they want to do, no idea how they want to do it, and no idea who's going to do it, but I can't help feeling it shouldn't be that way, and day 1 after the vote they should have gotten to work following clearly established (and publicised) protocols formed ahead of the vote. That people were willing to vote for the unknown in such fashion is just something else which perplexes.

I say Brexit need to do something as they got us into this mess, though of course it's highly unlikely the idiots who got us into this mess should be trusted with anything but a ticket to gitmo

[Banquo]

It looks like the EU aren't gonna play that game.
The UK is like the boy who has a tantrum about nothing and takes his ball home with him. Except this time his mates are waving him goodbye because they've got another ball.

Interesting. How do the EU take the ball away? Eject the UK from the EU? Is that even possible?

There are quite a few balls they could find. London being the financial capital of the world for a start,.....Heathrow being the main hub.

that'll happen anyway in all probability, article 50 just accelerates it, or rather put a do before date on it.

[Banquo]

One wonders what the UKIP election campaign will be fought on if Article 50 hasn't been invoked

Actually I think we do need to remove quite quickly on this, I may have hatred in my heart for the result but such is democracy, and we need to remove the uncertainty for us and for the EU asap, and I keep going back to this but BRexit need to tell us what they want to negotiate in the existing treaties as a sodding starting point.

who might that be? They don't exist now. That was a campaign, not an execution arm. That's why they could tell the porkies.

I concede in reality they've no idea what they want to do, no idea how they want to do it, and no idea who's going to do it, but I can't help feeling it shouldn't be that way, and day 1 after the vote they should have gotten to work following clearly established (and publicised) protocols formed ahead of the vote. That people were willing to vote for the unknown in such fashion is just something else which perplexes.

I say Brexit need to do something as they got us into this mess, though of course it's highly unlikely the idiots who got us into this mess should be trusted with anything but a ticket to gitmo

'they' don't exist. That's the problem. Cameron has said someone new has to change govt policy, which is what you are asking for. What do you mean by 'Brexit', I guess is the question?

[Stom]

The thing about Brexit is, and this isn't a popular pov, that with a strong, well respected leadership, Britain could do something good out of leaving the EU.

If we're being completely honest, the whole EU system is an utterly corrupt mess. A new union would be great for everyone involved (except, perhaps Belgium and Luxembourg). Yet with Cameron and Boris/Gove, as well as Corbyn, in charge, Britain has no chance of getting other politicians on side, working out deals and generally setting up a more robust, transparent union.

They can't even bloody talk to the SNP, ffs.

Which is the whole reason I would have voted remain if I'd been sent the bloody forms in time. As it is, they left it too late, again, and I expect I'm not the only one.

The problem is, no-one in Westminster sees this, and no-one from outside seems to have the balls or the backing to actually start something and make a difference.

[Digby]

the EU actually have no say in it. It is up to us.

Merkel and Junker have already made it clear that kicking it into the long grass ad infinitum is not an option.
It's not just the UK that is already losing billions as a result of the referendum. I see lots of people claiming the shares and currency will bounce back fairly soon but I see no reason for this to happen. We're primarily an importer of manufactured goods and an exporter of services.....there is no solid foundation for supposing the pound will bounce back.

What can they do about it?

Not a lot, there is article 7 which is intended to curb member rights for any nation in serious breach of human rights, but we're essentially talking a meltdown of law and order, executing immigrants in the street and what not, and even then you'd have to wonder if they wouldn't be keener in the first instance to work with a nation inside the EU in such dire straits.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

The thing about Brexit is, and this isn't a popular pov, that with a strong, well respected leadership, Britain could do something good out of leaving the EU.

If we're being completely honest, the whole EU system is an utterly corrupt mess. A new union would be great for everyone involved (except, perhaps Belgium and Luxembourg). Yet with Cameron and Boris/Gove, as well as Corbyn, in charge, Britain has no chance of getting other politicians on side, working out deals and generally setting up a more robust, transparent union.

They can't even bloody talk to the SNP, ffs.

Which is the whole reason I would have voted remain if I'd been sent the bloody forms in time. As it is, they left it too late, again, and I expect I'm not the only one.

The problem is, no-one in Westminster sees this, and no-one from outside seems to have the balls or the backing to actually start something and make a difference.

I'm sure some do agree with you. It's just that "It's really corrupt and shit, but we can completely rebuild" isn't much of a rallying call for Remain.

[Digby]

who might that be? They don't exist now. That was a campaign, not an execution arm. That's why they could tell the porkies.

I concede in reality they've no idea what they want to do, no idea how they want to do it, and no idea who's going to do it, but I can't help feeling it shouldn't be that way, and day 1 after the vote they should have gotten to work following clearly established (and publicised) protocols formed ahead of the vote. That people were willing to vote for the unknown in such fashion is just something else which perplexes.

I say Brexit need to do something as they got us into this mess, though of course it's highly unlikely the idiots who got us into this mess should be trusted with anything but a ticket to gitmo

'they' don't exist. That's the problem. Cameron has said someone new has to change govt policy, which is what you are asking for. What do you mean by 'Brexit', I guess is the question?

In this instance the Tory cabinet would have to suffice. I understand why they want to wait for a new leader, but they're getting paid to do a job, so do it. And I'm not asking for them to conclude negotiations, I'm asking for their thoughts on what they want to negotiate, as in we don't like the following sections of TFEU and so on, stick it up all up in a list if they want, I'll read 'em.

I remain very angry they had no idea what they wanted to do, there's no way after a general election the leader of the winning party would send a memo saying they're not quite sure where London is, but they hope to locate it arrive and starting making cabinet appointments in the next 2-3 months and btw they know they hadn't done a manifesto yet but we hope to get back to you with a legislative program within the year. Which is why they should have had a published plan ahead of the vote for what steps would be taken post a vote to leave, and we could now be following those steps Cameron or no. I'm pretty sure they didn't want to publish those steps as the BRexit campaigners are about as like to agree as a Master of the Hunt and the animal rights brigade, and they could have been held accountable for such plans. Or course this isn't entirely the fault of the Brexit campaigners, it still took people madder than Mad Jack McMad, the winner of last year's Mr Madman Competition to vote for a future with no plan and all associated lunacy.

[kk67]

the EU actually have no say in it. It is up to us.

Merkel and Junker have already made it clear that kicking it into the long grass ad infinitum is not an option.
It's not just the UK that is already losing billions as a result of the referendum. I see lots of people claiming the shares and currency will bounce back fairly soon but I see no reason for this to happen. We're primarily an importer of manufactured goods and an exporter of services.....there is no solid foundation for supposing the pound will bounce back.

so what's their remedy? What else would expect them to say?

I fully understand the losses and the reasons. There has been a dead cat bounce today though.

'Dead Cat bounce'.....quite so.
I saw an analyst saying 'it's bounced because it couldn't get any worse.

[Banquo]

The thing about Brexit is, and this isn't a popular pov, that with a strong, well respected leadership, Britain could do something good out of leaving the EU.

If we're being completely honest, the whole EU system is an utterly corrupt mess. A new union would be great for everyone involved (except, perhaps Belgium and Luxembourg). Yet with Cameron and Boris/Gove, as well as Corbyn, in charge, Britain has no chance of getting other politicians on side, working out deals and generally setting up a more robust, transparent union.

They can't even bloody talk to the SNP, ffs.

Which is the whole reason I would have voted remain if I'd been sent the bloody forms in time. As it is, they left it too late, again, and I expect I'm not the only one.

The problem is, no-one in Westminster sees this, and no-one from outside seems to have the balls or the backing to actually start something and make a difference.

The point is that we all know the EU is a shyte institution- and most of the Leave vote cared very little about this- but that being a member of it was of significant net benefit. Like many clubs tbh.

[kk67]

What can they do about it?

It's the blydi minded problems they can create that are the worry.
It was less than 12 hrs after the result that the mayor of Calais was saying British police would no longer be allowed on the Calais side. It's a good pointer to the sort of problems that haven't been considered or planned.

[Banquo]

I concede in reality they've no idea what they want to do, no idea how they want to do it, and no idea who's going to do it, but I can't help feeling it shouldn't be that way, and day 1 after the vote they should have gotten to work following clearly established (and publicised) protocols formed ahead of the vote. That people were willing to vote for the unknown in such fashion is just something else which perplexes.

I say Brexit need to do something as they got us into this mess, though of course it's highly unlikely the idiots who got us into this mess should be trusted with anything but a ticket to gitmo

'they' don't exist. That's the problem. Cameron has said someone new has to change govt policy, which is what you are asking for. What do you mean by 'Brexit', I guess is the question?

In this instance the Tory cabinet would have to suffice. I understand why they want to wait for a new leader, but they're getting paid to do a job, so do it. And I'm not asking for them to conclude negotiations, I'm asking for their thoughts on what they want to negotiate, as in we don't like the following sections of TFEU and so on, stick it up all up in a list if they want, I'll read 'em.

I remain very angry they had no idea what they wanted to do, there's no way after a general election the leader of the winning party would send a memo saying they're not quite sure where London is, but they hope to locate it arrive and starting making cabinet appointments in the next 2-3 months and btw they know they hadn't done a manifesto yet but we hope to get back to you with a legislative program within the year. Which is why they should have had a published plan ahead of the vote for what steps would be taken post a vote to leave, and we could now be following those steps Cameron or no. I'm pretty sure they didn't want to publish those steps as the BRexit campaigners are about as like to agree as a Master of the Hunt and the animal rights brigade, and they could have been held accountable for such plans. Or course this isn't entirely the fault of the Brexit campaigners, it still took people madder than Mad Jack McMad, the winner of last year's Mr Madman Competition to vote for a future with no plan and all associated lunacy.

So you aren't mad with Brexit, but with Cameron and the govt. for not having a variant on govt policy in the event of a loss. Fair enough actually- unless the plan was always to produce a plan 3 months after the result. Leave didn't have a plan, as they couldn't execute it though, I thought that was obvious.

[Banquo]

What can they do about it?

It's the blydi minded problems they can create that are the worry.
It was less than 12 hrs after the result that the mayor of Calais was saying British police would no longer be allowed on the Calais side. It's a good pointer to the sort of problems that haven't been considered or planned.

That's nothing to do with the EU. I totally agree that none of it has been thought through from a Leave point of view, but surely that was obvious, and its what Remain warned of. Yet they were ignored, and have effectively said, you've made your bed, now who is going to lie (sic) in it!

[Digby]

'they' don't exist. That's the problem. Cameron has said someone new has to change govt policy, which is what you are asking for. What do you mean by 'Brexit', I guess is the question?

In this instance the Tory cabinet would have to suffice. I understand why they want to wait for a new leader, but they're getting paid to do a job, so do it. And I'm not asking for them to conclude negotiations, I'm asking for their thoughts on what they want to negotiate, as in we don't like the following sections of TFEU and so on, stick it up all up in a list if they want, I'll read 'em.

I remain very angry they had no idea what they wanted to do, there's no way after a general election the leader of the winning party would send a memo saying they're not quite sure where London is, but they hope to locate it arrive and starting making cabinet appointments in the next 2-3 months and btw they know they hadn't done a manifesto yet but we hope to get back to you with a legislative program within the year. Which is why they should have had a published plan ahead of the vote for what steps would be taken post a vote to leave, and we could now be following those steps Cameron or no. I'm pretty sure they didn't want to publish those steps as the BRexit campaigners are about as like to agree as a Master of the Hunt and the animal rights brigade, and they could have been held accountable for such plans. Or course this isn't entirely the fault of the Brexit campaigners, it still took people madder than Mad Jack McMad, the winner of last year's Mr Madman Competition to vote for a future with no plan and all associated lunacy.

So you aren't mad with Brexit, but with Cameron and the govt. for not having a variant on govt policy in the event of a loss. Fair enough actually- unless the plan was always to produce a plan 3 months after the result. Leave didn't have a plan, as they couldn't execute it though, I thought that was obvious.

No I'm cross with Brexit as they should have had a plan of what came next. The government mayn't have liked the plan, but they mayn't like what they're now faced with anyway and they'd have had a mandate to act on. The way it is now the remains will all be pissed off, and once the leave voters see what's going to be delivered they'll all be pissed off too I expect.

[kk67]

I don't understand.
1. How does the EU influence the position of London as the financial capital of the world?

Most of the big financial players in the square mile are foreign companies, aren't they ?. We call London the financial capital of the world but as far as they are concerned we're just the money-laundering capital of the world. It wouldn't take much to shift that somewhere else.