RugbyRebels

I’d still go Razor. Think we need a proper shake up and Borthwick is (for now) too close to the existing mould.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:53 am I’d still go Razor. Think we need a proper shake up and Borthwick is (for now) too close to the existing mould.

That is a rasonable concern about Borthwick.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:53 am I’d still go Razor. Think we need a proper shake up and Borthwick is (for now) too close to the existing mould.

I'd agree but much like the NZRU when they went with Foster I think the RFU are to traditional for a coach as dynamic and unorthodox as Robertson. Especially as he's from outside the English system.

Owen Farrell finds Eddie’s sacking, « unbelievably disappointing ». Probably thinks his chances of being picked by Jones’ replacement are thin.

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:08 am Owen Farrell finds Eddie’s sacking, « unbelievably disappointing ». Probably thinks his chances of being picked by Jones’ replacement are thin.

Yet, I'd lay odds on him being Borthwick's FH through to the RWC. After that, though . . .

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:36 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:08 am Owen Farrell finds Eddie’s sacking, « unbelievably disappointing ». Probably thinks his chances of being picked by Jones’ replacement are thin.

Yet, I'd lay odds on him being Borthwick's FH through to the RWC. After that, though . . .

Really? I’d have thought that if George Ford proves his fitness, then he’d be at fly half.

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:05 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:36 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:08 am Owen Farrell finds Eddie’s sacking, « unbelievably disappointing ». Probably thinks his chances of being picked by Jones’ replacement are thin.

Yet, I'd lay odds on him being Borthwick's FH through to the RWC. After that, though . . .

Really? I’d have thought that if George Ford proves his fitness, then he’d be at fly half.

You could well be right but I think Borthwick's Saracens' core will rule.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:53 am I’d still go Razor. Think we need a proper shake up and Borthwick is (for now) too close to the existing mould.

I agree with this. Not sure we could get him though - he seems set on the ABs

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:05 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:36 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:08 am Owen Farrell finds Eddie’s sacking, « unbelievably disappointing ». Probably thinks his chances of being picked by Jones’ replacement are thin.

Yet, I'd lay odds on him being Borthwick's FH through to the RWC. After that, though . . .

Really? I’d have thought that if George Ford proves his fitness, then he’d be at fly half.

A near cert to be in the squad at least i'd say.

What other players might get a recall. Daley, Watson possibly Cole? And who might be left out. The Vunipola's, Tuilagi, Nowell?

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:23 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:05 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:36 am

Yet, I'd lay odds on him being Borthwick's FH through to the RWC. After that, though . . .

Really? I’d have thought that if George Ford proves his fitness, then he’d be at fly half.

A near cert to be in the squad at least i'd say.

What other players might get a recall. Daley, Watson possibly Cole? And who might be left out. The Vunipola's, Tuilagi, Nowell?

Cole has been playing well but he's 35 now, and if we go on prem/euro form, both the Vunipola's were very good v Edinburgh...Mako especially.

I'd hope we'd get Watson, Freeman, Daly, Arundell, Steward in the back three, plus one of the young fliers.

Backrow will imo be the really interesting place, where we do have various and varying options.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:43 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:23 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:05 am

Really? I’d have thought that if George Ford proves his fitness, then he’d be at fly half.

A near cert to be in the squad at least i'd say.

What other players might get a recall. Daley, Watson possibly Cole? And who might be left out. The Vunipola's, Tuilagi, Nowell?

Cole has been playing well but he's 35 now, and if we go on prem/euro form, both the Vunipola's were very good v Edinburgh...Mako especially.

I'd hope we'd get Watson, Freeman, Daly, Arundell, Steward in the back three, plus one of the young fliers.

Backrow will imo be the really interesting place, where we do have various and varying options.

A unit of Willis, Willis and Curry would need some shifting if it got a run of games.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 12:09 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:43 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:23 am

A near cert to be in the squad at least i'd say.

What other players might get a recall. Daley, Watson possibly Cole? And who might be left out. The Vunipola's, Tuilagi, Nowell?

Cole has been playing well but he's 35 now, and if we go on prem/euro form, both the Vunipola's were very good v Edinburgh...Mako especially.

I'd hope we'd get Watson, Freeman, Daly, Arundell, Steward in the back three, plus one of the young fliers.

Backrow will imo be the really interesting place, where we do have various and varying options.

A unit of Willis, Willis and Curry would need some shifting if it got a run of games.

Possibly, but we really have no idea.

At least we didn’t look at them while we had the chance!

which one is Eddie?

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:59 pm

Fair play to him.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:46 pm

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:59 pm

Fair play to him.

Puja

He's always done this sort of stuff- whatever your views on him, he loves his rugby.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:58 pmHe's always done this sort of stuff- whatever your views on him, he loves his rugby.

Yup; and I think Nick Mullins has made that point before as well (I think when he was being criticised for his consulting work in Japan) - though I couldn't find where, and this one turned up in my feed from Saturday, less than a week after being sacked.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:34 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:58 pmHe's always done this sort of stuff- whatever your views on him, he loves his rugby.

Yup; and I think Nick Mullins has made that point before as well - though I couldn't find where, and this one turned up in my feed from Saturday, less than a week after being sacked.

Yes, he tweeted something...which was met with the usual scepticism, about Eddie offering himself for coaching sessions after he came back from the Oz tour and had some spare time. His dedication to rugby is pretty obvious, and I think sometimes the cause of him falling out with his coaches (and possibly part of his own downfall as he's become a bit of a tinkerman tbh).

A tinkerman? Sounds like some sort of slur but I’m guessing not.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:39 pm A tinkerman? Sounds like some sort of slur but I’m guessing not.

A fairly well known reference tbh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudio_Ranieri

...the point being, he was so focused on some of the details of the play, he lost sight of discipline and basics imo.

Well that does seem fitting.

I’m not sure anyone, or many, question him away from work. He’s taken personal time to help two very small charities I was/am involved in so I certainly won’t. Doesn’t take away from the negatives whilst he was on RFU time.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:32 am I’m not sure anyone, or many, question him away from work. He’s taken personal time to help two very small charities I was/am involved in so I certainly won’t.

I’m sure Oakboy could manage it.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:43 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:23 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:05 am

Really? I’d have thought that if George Ford proves his fitness, then he’d be at fly half.

A near cert to be in the squad at least i'd say.

What other players might get a recall. Daley, Watson possibly Cole? And who might be left out. The Vunipola's, Tuilagi, Nowell?

Cole has been playing well but he's 35 now

Does age matter that much for a tighthead prop who's getting through as much work as his younger counter parts? I can understand the reluctance to build around Cole moving forward but the World Cup is 9 months away and we have issues at the scrum and a pretty young stable of tighthead props. If Will Stuart is indeed injured for the 6N do we go Sinckler and Heyes or do we bring in some experience?

Sorry I’m coming to this well late but wanted to spew this out!

I’m going to make myself unpopular here, and I’d like to preface all this with saying that I am genuinely not sure if EJ should have been England coach. I’m nowhere near as certain as Squidge et al that the mysterious unstructured attack was ever really a thing or was destined to click in to place come the World Cup. Or indeed, that winning a World Cup can be planned for, as opposed to being dependent on being one of the best teams, but definitely the luckiest team. The strange selection policies had begun to annoy me, and more than anything the performances-completely lacking in structure, seemingly playing against our strengths, defence falling apart, having an uncompetitive scrum, ILL DISCIPLINE-have been mightily depressing to watch.

However, even if you are the most avid Eddie hater, I don’t see how you can conclude that anything about him being sacked now is good.
Borthwick could be the best coach in the world, but I don’t quite understand our expectations of him vs Eddie. Eddie hung everything on the World Cup, which I think was wrong, whilst I’d love England to win a World Cup, I would no way sacrifice 3 years of enjoying watching competitive games in the 6 nations and AI’s in order to get it. But he openly did this consistently since 2017, and the RFU openly accepted it. Now seemingly Borthwick is coming in with the expectation of being at least competitive in every game.

The SA game was awful. In every way. Seeing England get bullied was hard enough in the WC final when SA were absolutely at their brutal peak, but seeing it against a team that are probably second only to us in looking like they are essentially messing about tactically in the hope of clicking come the World Cup was painful.

Borthwick now has a 6 nations to bed in his game plan/systems, (possibly) new players and (probably) new coaches against 2 teams that are the most settled and ascendant teams in the world. 2 teams that are competitive and love beating up on us. Oh and Italy… I can generally see us losing 4 games here, which might have happened under Eddie through experimentation and holding back (although knowing EJ, he may well have held back a game plan for Ireland and/or France but lost to Scotland and/or Wales!) but under Borthwick we’ll be trying really hard to win (almost certainly with a very conservative game plan) rather than experimenting.

Even as someone who didn’t necessarily buy the Eddie bs, you can’t argue with the fact that he did seem able to pull out a shock result or two, especially in World Cups. The World Cup is next year. Why did we sack him now, when essentially nothing had changed? I feel like we’ve gone from sacrificing the 6 nations and AI’s for the World Cup to sacrificing both. It was all a ridiculous experiment, but even with ridiculous experiments there’s no point in giving up until you get a result. Why would we not just keep on till next year, then gleefully sack him (I know he would have been leaving anyway, but we could all of scowled at him as he left or something) if we did anything but win and give Borthwick-or indeed any number of other extremely qualified coaches, many of which would be more likely to be available then-a proper World Cup cycle to show what he could do? To me, the whole thing is just way too early, or way too late.

I think the only thing that would make me accept this as a sensible decision is if EJ had actually lost the dressing room. If that’s the case-and we may never know-I think it’s fair enough. Experimentation on this scale, when not achieving results, depends massively on faith, and if the players are doubting everything he’s saying to them, there’s really no point. But the players have generally spoken extremely highly of him so who knows…
Having said all this, I’m genuinely excited to see Borthwick’s first squad, it’ll tell us an awful lot about where he’s going, I just think the RFU has proper shit the bed.