RugbyRebels

09 Mitchell/Warr
10 MSmith
11 Murley
12 Ojomoh
13 Lawrence
14 Freeman
15 Steward

21 Spencer, 22 Ford, 23 Slade/Radwan

NB: Ojomoh wouldn't be my first choice 12 (pity Kelly's form has dropped off), but he's close enough that I think the club partnership bumps him up.
If we're playing an out-of-position 12, then I still like the look of pairing Slade and Lawrence, to play as numberless centres.

Poor Seb Atkinson. Gone too soon.

Actually did he play with Lawrence much or did he not get much first team action?

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:13 pm NB: Ojomoh wouldn't be my first choice 12 (pity Kelly's form has dropped off), but he's close enough that I think the club partnership bumps him up.
If we're playing an out-of-position 12, then I still like the look of pairing Slade and Lawrence, to play as numberless centres.

That's exactly my logic on Dingwall and Freeman - the club combo could be key. I don't think Freeman is as good a 13 as Lawrence, but Dingwall's a better 12 than Ojomoh and I think it's better to have partnerships than to try and mix-and-match right now.

If we are going to mix-and-match, then I'd agree that Lawrence/Slade is probably the highest performing individuals, even though I don't much like the idea of introducing the complexity of swapping around and having one of them continually out of position into a newly assembled side.

The other option is hoping for a resurgence from Kelly or SAtkinson, but both of them are reinforcing my suspicions of being more fan-hope than finished product at the current time.

Puja

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:00 pm OHC used to come off his wing a lot for LI.

Another wing to consider is Radwan. Playing at Newcastle doesnt help him but he can trouble any defence with the pace he has.

Beat me to it on OHC. I threw him into the backline I posted really on the basis of what we saw at LI, where he was lethal frankly. Genuine top end pace (not sure about acceleration), a very big, powerful bloke, difficult to stop in the oppo 22 and pretty tidy. His England caps were a waste of fcking time, we were playing so badly at that point. I think he needs a good crack at the shirt.

I say this because Arundell is off, and I assume Watson is injured. Watson remains the best English winger imo.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:41 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:00 pm OHC used to come off his wing a lot for LI.

Another wing to consider is Radwan. Playing at Newcastle doesnt help him but he can trouble any defence with the pace he has.

Beat me to it on OHC. I threw him into the backline I posted really on the basis of what we saw at LI, where he was lethal frankly. Genuine top end pace (not sure about acceleration), a very big, powerful bloke, difficult to stop in the oppo 22 and pretty tidy. His England caps were a waste of fcking time, we were playing so badly at that point. I think he needs a good crack at the shirt.

I say this because Arundell is off, and I assume Watson is injured. Watson remains the best English winger imo.

Watson's back in training apparently. May not play this weekend, but expected to be starting games before the end of the month.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:50 am Tom Willis out for the 6 nations. With Mercer, Curry, Lawes and Jack Willis unavailable it'll be interesting to see who gets in the back row. Continue with Earl at 8 (Underhill still playing well at 7 - maybe he's past his fitness woes?) or go back to dirty Dommers, the soft, lazy, part-time bastard at 8? Surely it can't be Billy V? Is Ludlam still in the picture given he's off to France?

Typical really that we're discussing how we might be able to introduce some new, exciting faces in the backline and all our backrow stocks seem to disappear.

Real shame about Tom Willis, I didn't know that. I am a big fan, I think he's made to play for England. Some of his carries/tries for Sarries already don't seem to get the coverage/praise they deserve, the guy carries three defenders across the try line for fun, works like a Trojan. Excellent player.

With Tom W, Jack W, Lawes, T Curry out/retired/injured, I suspect he'll be thinking of this group: Chessum or Martin (will he be fit?) Pearson, Underhill, Earl, Mercer, Dombrandt, Ted Hill (is he fit? don't think so) etc. I am still a big Pearson fan and I'd have him in there somewhere I think.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:47 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:50 am Tom Willis out for the 6 nations. With Mercer, Curry, Lawes and Jack Willis unavailable it'll be interesting to see who gets in the back row. Continue with Earl at 8 (Underhill still playing well at 7 - maybe he's past his fitness woes?) or go back to dirty Dommers, the soft, lazy, part-time bastard at 8? Surely it can't be Billy V? Is Ludlam still in the picture given he's off to France?

Typical really that we're discussing how we might be able to introduce some new, exciting faces in the backline and all our backrow stocks seem to disappear.

Real shame about Tom Willis, I didn't know that. I am a big fan, I think he's made to play for England. Some of his carries/tries for Sarries already don't seem to get the coverage/praise they deserve, the guy carries three defenders across the try line for fun, works like a Trojan. Excellent player.

With Tom W, Jack W, Lawes, T Curry out/retired/injured, I suspect he'll be thinking of this group: Chessum or Martin (will he be fit?) Pearson, Underhill, Earl, Mercer, Dombrandt, Ted Hill (is he fit? don't think so) etc. I am still a big Pearson fan and I'd have him in there somewhere I think.

And Barbeary, who seems easily forgotten nowadays! I'd say BCurry over THill as well, although I wouldn't really be eager to have either in the EPS right now. Fisilau's a useful option at 8 too.

Pearson's confusing me right now - he's a fantastic player and seems to be doing the highlights well at Saints, but they don't seem to want to start him in the big games for some reason, even with Ludlam out injured. He feels like he should be an obvious choice for both them and England, but until he's first choice for his club, I don't feel like I can argue for him.

Puja

It's also kind of interesting that Evans has been the best English 7 by a mile so far, but is presumably too small to be taken seriously as an England prospect. I keep waiting for the game where he gets blown off the park or is shown up for a lack of physicality but it just doesn't happen.

Well we've covered the rest, so who is breaking in to the tight five?

1. Genge, Marler, Rodd
2. George, LCD, Dan
3. Sinkler, Cole, Stuart
4. Itoje, Chessum
5. Martin, Hill

Marler and Cole are going to be on the fringes at some point due to age. Rodd and Dan seem to be there more on promise than form. Sinkler and Stuart struggling for any consistent form. Is LCD back to full form/fitness?

I guess I'm fine with that lock selection if Hill is firmly fourth choice. Is Martin fit though? Is Coles regularly starting for Saints again?

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:04 pm It's also kind of interesting that Evans has been the best English 7 by a mile so far, but is presumably too small to be taken seriously as an England prospect. I keep waiting for the game where he gets blown off the park or is shown up for a lack of physicality but it just doesn't happen.

My brain had forgotten completely about Evans. Yes - absolutely he should be in right now. On form it's him and Underhill on the flanks.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:52 pm Well we've covered the rest, so who is breaking in to the tight five?

1. Genge, Marler, Rodd
2. George, LCD, Dan
3. Sinkler, Cole, Stuart
4. Itoje, Chessum
5. Martin, Hill

Marler and Cole are going to be on the fringes at some point due to age. Rodd and Dan seem to be there more on promise than form. Sinkler and Stuart struggling for any consistent form. Is LCD back to full form/fitness?

I guess I'm fine with that lock selection if Hill is firmly fourth choice. Is Martin fit though? Is Coles regularly starting for Saints again?

As I mentioned above, I want to have a look at Tuima and Painter. I don't necessarily know if either would be anywhere near starting, but I'd like us to have a look at what they can add to the scrum solidity as a pair and individually.

Outside of that, there's still the howling dearth of talent at tighthead that means we're seriously considering Dan Cole for his 60th year of international rugby. Can't see any logic behind picking Sinckler at all - no form, either for club or country. Heyes hasn't been setting the world alight either. Stuart's been fine, so he's probably the starting tighthead unless Painter impresses in camp.

Puja

Sinckler will be picked precisely because there is a dearth of options. Painter should be under consideration. I'm still waiting for Heyes to show signs of real improvement but nothing so far this season.
Obano must be in with a shout on the loose head.
Coles at lock was looking a good bet until he got injured. Tizard an option, maybe? Tuima is raw but no denying he's got something.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:35 pm Poor Seb Atkinson. Gone too soon.

Actually did he play with Lawrence much or did he not get much first team action?

Atkinson is a class above.

Be good to see him and Lawrence line up for Eng.

On the back row, is Pepper out of contention?

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 2:54 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:35 pm Poor Seb Atkinson. Gone too soon.

Actually did he play with Lawrence much or did he not get much first team action?

Atkinson is a class above.

Be good to see him and Lawrence line up for Eng.

On the back row, is Pepper out of contention?

Injured right now, although I'm unsure as to for how long. Would be a bit early for him, no?

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 3:07 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 2:54 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:35 pm Poor Seb Atkinson. Gone too soon.

Actually did he play with Lawrence much or did he not get much first team action?

Atkinson is a class above.

Be good to see him and Lawrence line up for Eng.

On the back row, is Pepper out of contention?

Injured right now, although I'm unsure as to for how long. Would be a bit early for him, no?

Puja

I thought he was 50/50 for the game v Tigers, so assume not too far off a return. As for England, probably, but if form is a guide a call up to the squad would be a good thing.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 2:00 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:52 pm Well we've covered the rest, so who is breaking in to the tight five?

1. Genge, Marler, Rodd
2. George, LCD, Dan
3. Sinkler, Cole, Stuart
4. Itoje, Chessum
5. Martin, Hill

Marler and Cole are going to be on the fringes at some point due to age. Rodd and Dan seem to be there more on promise than form. Sinkler and Stuart struggling for any consistent form. Is LCD back to full form/fitness?

I guess I'm fine with that lock selection if Hill is firmly fourth choice. Is Martin fit though? Is Coles regularly starting for Saints again?

As I mentioned above, I want to have a look at Tuima and Painter. I don't necessarily know if either would be anywhere near starting, but I'd like us to have a look at what they can add to the scrum solidity as a pair and individually.

Outside of that, there's still the howling dearth of talent at tighthead that means we're seriously considering Dan Cole for his 60th year of international rugby. Can't see any logic behind picking Sinckler at all - no form, either for club or country. Heyes hasn't been setting the world alight either. Stuart's been fine, so he's probably the starting tighthead unless Painter impresses in camp.

Puja

Tuima and Painter won't get considered, I'd guess - unfortunately.

Exeter's players seem to be by like Gloucester's of a decade back - faces not fitting or whatever. If fit, there is no better attacking threat from FB than Hodge. As a physical lump of a winger Hammersley takes some beating. Neither get a mention.

Maybe, Baxter and co. simply get more out of players than the English coaching unit could.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 3:07 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 2:54 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:35 pm Poor Seb Atkinson. Gone too soon.

Actually did he play with Lawrence much or did he not get much first team action?

Atkinson is a class above.

Be good to see him and Lawrence line up for Eng.

On the back row, is Pepper out of contention?

Injured right now, although I'm unsure as to for how long. Would be a bit early for him, no?

Puja

not to be sneezed at...

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 3:39 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 2:00 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:52 pm Well we've covered the rest, so who is breaking in to the tight five?

1. Genge, Marler, Rodd
2. George, LCD, Dan
3. Sinkler, Cole, Stuart
4. Itoje, Chessum
5. Martin, Hill

Marler and Cole are going to be on the fringes at some point due to age. Rodd and Dan seem to be there more on promise than form. Sinkler and Stuart struggling for any consistent form. Is LCD back to full form/fitness?

I guess I'm fine with that lock selection if Hill is firmly fourth choice. Is Martin fit though? Is Coles regularly starting for Saints again?

As I mentioned above, I want to have a look at Tuima and Painter. I don't necessarily know if either would be anywhere near starting, but I'd like us to have a look at what they can add to the scrum solidity as a pair and individually.

Outside of that, there's still the howling dearth of talent at tighthead that means we're seriously considering Dan Cole for his 60th year of international rugby. Can't see any logic behind picking Sinckler at all - no form, either for club or country. Heyes hasn't been setting the world alight either. Stuart's been fine, so he's probably the starting tighthead unless Painter impresses in camp.

Puja

Tuima and Painter won't get considered, I'd guess - unfortunately.

Exeter's players seem to be by like Gloucester's of a decade back - faces not fitting or whatever. If fit, there is no better attacking threat from FB than Hodge. As a physical lump of a winger Hammersley takes some beating. Neither get a mention.

Maybe, Baxter and co. simply get more out of players than the English coaching unit could.

To be fair I don't think either has shown EPS level form. They've both shown improvements, but for me look a little way off consideration yet.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 3:39 pm Tuima and Painter won't get considered, I'd guess - unfortunately.

Exeter's players seem to be by like Gloucester's of a decade back - faces not fitting or whatever. If fit, there is no better attacking threat from FB than Hodge. As a physical lump of a winger Hammersley takes some beating. Neither get a mention.

Maybe, Baxter and co. simply get more out of players than the English coaching unit could.

Weird take. Who from Exeter would you say has been unjustly ignored by this England regime? Hodge was electric in his 2 or 3 games before getting injured and there hasn't been an EPS since then to have ignored him. Hammersley's a wild name to pick out - I've seen him play a few times and there's been nothing that's suggested a player even remotely in England consideration. Is he even first choice for Exeter when everyone's fit?

Puja

Cameron Henderson revealed as being out injured for the whole season for Leicester. Ordinarily not an EPS matter, but George Martin is coming back to fitness imminently and, with Chessum/Henderson as the incumbents, he might've been pushed into the back row. Henderson's injury means Martin should be going straight back into the second row (where he should be, IMO) which is good news for England.

Horrible for Henderson though; I wish him well with his recovery.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:27 pm Cameron Henderson revealed as being out injured for the whole season for Leicester. Ordinarily not an EPS matter, but George Martin is coming back to fitness imminently and, with Chessum/Henderson as the incumbents, he might've been pushed into the back row. Henderson's injury means Martin should be going straight back into the second row (where he should be, IMO) which is good news for England.

Horrible for Henderson though; I wish him well with his recovery.

Puja

Poor Cam Henderson has sod all luck. He builds himself up and gets into some really good consistent form and then horrible injury. He looked certain to feature for Scotland in the 6N.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:54 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:04 pm It's also kind of interesting that Evans has been the best English 7 by a mile so far, but is presumably too small to be taken seriously as an England prospect. I keep waiting for the game where he gets blown off the park or is shown up for a lack of physicality but it just doesn't happen.

My brain had forgotten completely about Evans. Yes - absolutely he should be in right now. On form it's him and Underhill on the flanks.

Puja

If Earl is to continue at 8, that is one trio of short-arsed loose forwards.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:27 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:54 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:04 pm It's also kind of interesting that Evans has been the best English 7 by a mile so far, but is presumably too small to be taken seriously as an England prospect. I keep waiting for the game where he gets blown off the park or is shown up for a lack of physicality but it just doesn't happen.

My brain had forgotten completely about Evans. Yes - absolutely he should be in right now. On form it's him and Underhill on the flanks.

Puja

If Earl is to continue at 8, that is one trio of short-arsed loose forwards.

They're all 6ft according to google - while that's not tall in a rugby sense, it's hardly a bunch of midgets.

Puja

Will Evans is a quality openside in defence but might need to show a bit in attack if he wants to be starting. Definitely deserves to be in the squad.

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:46 pm Will Evans is a quality openside in defence but might need to show a bit in attack if he wants to be starting. Definitely deserves to be in the squad.

If we've got Earl and Underhill in the backrow alongside him, does he really need to offer much ball in hand? I'd be happy with him just clearing rucks.

Puja