RugbyRebels

Anybody seen/heard anything about T Curry? It looked horribly like his hip as he limped off.

Looked more like a knee to me, he was able to move his upper leg when limping off, if the hip went he'd be hopping at best. No news on it that I can find though

Just watched it and now ready for bed after being bored near to sleep. Are we any better or is there anymore flesh on the skeleton gameplan than a year ago?

Sat next to an astonished Scotsmen at the game who was flabbergasted that we kept on kicking the ball away. All around us every time we had ruck one could see AM lining up yet another box kick, we could and so did the scottish backs. Everybody was shouting 'don't fucking kick it' and off it would go to be caught by a large Scottish back to run right into us.
VdM was MoM which he deserved only to be let down by Finn

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 8:51 pm Just watched it and now ready for bed after being bored near to sleep. Are we any better or is there anymore flesh on the skeleton gameplan than a year ago?

Nah we're shunt

astralweeks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:13 pm Sat next to an astonished Scotsmen at the game who was flabbergasted that we kept on kicking the ball away. All around us every time we had ruck one could see AM lining up yet another box kick, we could and so did the scottish backs. Everybody was shouting 'don't fucking kick it' and off it would go to be caught by a large Scottish back to run right into us.
VdM was MoM which he deserved only to be let down by Finn

Bet he was really confused when they didn’t score for 60 minutes and we scored 9 points that won us the game.

He was probably flabbergasted by that…

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:49 pm

astralweeks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:13 pm Sat next to an astonished Scotsmen at the game who was flabbergasted that we kept on kicking the ball away. All around us every time we had ruck one could see AM lining up yet another box kick, we could and so did the scottish backs. Everybody was shouting 'don't fucking kick it' and off it would go to be caught by a large Scottish back to run right into us.
VdM was MoM which he deserved only to be let down by Finn

Bet he was really confused when they didn’t score for 60 minutes and we scored 9 points that won us the game.

He was probably flabbergasted by that…

It's almost like Borthwick planned to keep Scotland under pressure in their half, upping the tempo in the second half as their forwards tired. If we could stop knocking the damn ball on and resource rucks more competently than under 9s level we'd have scored more than 9 points in that period.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:51 pm

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:49 pm

astralweeks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:13 pm Sat next to an astonished Scotsmen at the game who was flabbergasted that we kept on kicking the ball away. All around us every time we had ruck one could see AM lining up yet another box kick, we could and so did the scottish backs. Everybody was shouting 'don't fucking kick it' and off it would go to be caught by a large Scottish back to run right into us.
VdM was MoM which he deserved only to be let down by Finn

Bet he was really confused when they didn’t score for 60 minutes and we scored 9 points that won us the game.

He was probably flabbergasted by that…

It's almost like Borthwick planned to keep Scotland under pressure in their half, upping the tempo in the second half as their forwards tired. If we could stop knocking the damn ball on and resource rucks more competently than under 9s level we'd have scored more than 9 points in that period.

I think we struggled to resource rucks 100%. Possible we missed Martin there, possible T curry not being fully fit hurt us there.

We responded by kicking the leather of it and relying on our physicality. I wouldn’t want to see us do it every game but we don’t do that.

We scored 4 tries against France, 3 against Ireland, 4 against Oz, 2 against SA (plus another marginally ruled out). We can attack and have scored some lovely tries.

We found a way to win the game. We reacted to the defensive challenges we were having and did well there. We beat the Scots for the first time in forever. Annoyed we conceded the last try because so the game out with a good defensive set there and we keep them scoreless from the 18th minute which would have been a great effort.

I wouldn’t want to see us play like that every week but let’s remember SA won the semi final and final of the last World Cup playing a broadly similar game (despite going into it with everyone raving about their improved attacking game).

Sometimes you have to win ugly. It’s better than losing attractively which people seemed to agree happened in losses to France, NZ x 3 and Oz in the last 12 months.

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 10:09 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:51 pm

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:49 pm

Bet he was really confused when they didn’t score for 60 minutes and we scored 9 points that won us the game.

He was probably flabbergasted by that…

It's almost like Borthwick planned to keep Scotland under pressure in their half, upping the tempo in the second half as their forwards tired. If we could stop knocking the damn ball on and resource rucks more competently than under 9s level we'd have scored more than 9 points in that period.

I think we struggled to resource rucks 100%. Possible we missed Martin there, possible T curry not being fully fit hurt us there.

We responded by kicking the leather of it and relying on our physicality. I wouldn’t want to see us do it every game but we don’t do that.

We scored 4 tries against France, 3 against Ireland, 4 against Oz, 2 against SA (plus another marginally ruled out). We can attack and have scored some lovely tries.

We found a way to win the game. We reacted to the defensive challenges we were having and did well there. We beat the Scots for the first time in forever. Annoyed we conceded the last try because so the game out with a good defensive set there and we keep them scoreless from the 18th minute which would have been a great effort.

I wouldn’t want to see us play like that every week but let’s remember SA won the semi final and final of the last World Cup playing a broadly similar game (despite going into it with everyone raving about their improved attacking game).

Sometimes you have to win ugly. It’s better than losing attractively which people seemed to agree happened in losses to France, NZ x 3 and Oz in the last 12 months.

There’s rose tinted spectacles and then there is this….

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 7:51 pm Winning matters, so that’s good.

But our wide defence ffs and missed tackles and persistently kicking badly and when on the front foot shouts of lack of confidence tbh. Slade was poor again imo, and Sleightholme was lucky to get to just after half time sadly. Soft pens too.

Still, hung in there and Itoje and Chessum had good games bar daft pens as above

I think also there is some psychological issue against the Scots. Both teams are aware they gave the beating of England. So if this means that particular weakness begins to disappear it could be worth.

But still.... Wow.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 8:38 pm Anybody seen/heard anything about T Curry? It looked horribly like his hip as he limped off.

Knee mate.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 10:12 pm

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 10:09 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:51 pm

It's almost like Borthwick planned to keep Scotland under pressure in their half, upping the tempo in the second half as their forwards tired. If we could stop knocking the damn ball on and resource rucks more competently than under 9s level we'd have scored more than 9 points in that period.

I think we struggled to resource rucks 100%. Possible we missed Martin there, possible T curry not being fully fit hurt us there.

We responded by kicking the leather of it and relying on our physicality. I wouldn’t want to see us do it every game but we don’t do that.

We scored 4 tries against France, 3 against Ireland, 4 against Oz, 2 against SA (plus another marginally ruled out). We can attack and have scored some lovely tries.

We found a way to win the game. We reacted to the defensive challenges we were having and did well there. We beat the Scots for the first time in forever. Annoyed we conceded the last try because so the game out with a good defensive set there and we keep them scoreless from the 18th minute which would have been a great effort.

I wouldn’t want to see us play like that every week but let’s remember SA won the semi final and final of the last World Cup playing a broadly similar game (despite going into it with everyone raving about their improved attacking game).

Sometimes you have to win ugly. It’s better than losing attractively which people seemed to agree happened in losses to France, NZ x 3 and Oz in the last 12 months.

There’s rose tinted spectacles and then there is this….

Indeed. I’m all for looking for positives , but..

Pretty dull and disappointing fare all round from a couple of rudderless teams lacking direction, leadership and skills. Quite poor reffing too.
The Wales/Ireland game was not much better, though a Wales team in some disarray gave it a good thrash and played with a lot of heart before Ireland plodded to a win.
Hoping for something better from Italy/France tomorrow.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 10:12 pm

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 10:09 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:51 pm

It's almost like Borthwick planned to keep Scotland under pressure in their half, upping the tempo in the second half as their forwards tired. If we could stop knocking the damn ball on and resource rucks more competently than under 9s level we'd have scored more than 9 points in that period.

I think we struggled to resource rucks 100%. Possible we missed Martin there, possible T curry not being fully fit hurt us there.

We responded by kicking the leather of it and relying on our physicality. I wouldn’t want to see us do it every game but we don’t do that.

We scored 4 tries against France, 3 against Ireland, 4 against Oz, 2 against SA (plus another marginally ruled out). We can attack and have scored some lovely tries.

We found a way to win the game. We reacted to the defensive challenges we were having and did well there. We beat the Scots for the first time in forever. Annoyed we conceded the last try because so the game out with a good defensive set there and we keep them scoreless from the 18th minute which would have been a great effort.

I wouldn’t want to see us play like that every week but let’s remember SA won the semi final and final of the last World Cup playing a broadly similar game (despite going into it with everyone raving about their improved attacking game).

Sometimes you have to win ugly. It’s better than losing attractively which people seemed to agree happened in losses to France, NZ x 3 and Oz in the last 12 months.

There’s rose tinted spectacles and then there is this….

This got a proper laugh.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:51 pm

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:49 pm

astralweeks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:13 pm Sat next to an astonished Scotsmen at the game who was flabbergasted that we kept on kicking the ball away. All around us every time we had ruck one could see AM lining up yet another box kick, we could and so did the scottish backs. Everybody was shouting 'don't fucking kick it' and off it would go to be caught by a large Scottish back to run right into us.
VdM was MoM which he deserved only to be let down by Finn

Bet he was really confused when they didn’t score for 60 minutes and we scored 9 points that won us the game.

He was probably flabbergasted by that…

It's almost like Borthwick planned to keep Scotland under pressure in their half, upping the tempo in the second half as their forwards tired. If we could stop knocking the damn ball on and resource rucks more competently than under 9s level we'd have scored more than 9 points in that period.

Have you seen the territory stats? If it all went to plan then the plan must’ve been to keep Scotland under pressure in our half…
These excuses are just, well, excuses. Our ruck speed has been poor for a while which suggests coaching failure.
If any team should be pissed off about not converting pressure to points it should be Scotland, imo.

For the lols here are Stephen Jones’s ratings:

England
15. MARCUS SMITH 5/10
Had little part to play. England never bothered to try to use their attacking talent.

14. TOMMY FREEMAN 7/10
If only the England team had his competitive instincts. Classic try was the highlight.

13. OLLIE LAWRENCE 6/10
When others called upon him he demonstrated a certain pedigree in midfield. Shame that he gets around two passes per half of rugby.

12. HENRY SLADE 5/10
He was competitive, but his talents remained locked in a box in the white jersey.

11. OLLIE SLEIGHTHOLME 4/10
Kicked badly to give the ball away for the first Scottish try and replaced early in second half.

Star man
10. FIN SMITH 8/10
You wonder what he would do in a team that felt free to attack and to use his talents.

9. ALEX MITCHELL 5/10
The endless reply of kicks from the base started to jar from a very early stage.

1. ELLIS GENGE 5/10
England coped reasonably well up front, although it was not a massive challenge.

2. LUKE COWAN-DICKIE 7/10
He and George are at least finding ways to insert themselves in a game, and both England hookers were significant performers.

3. WILL STUART 6/10
Had a reasonable scrum battle but England were never dominant.

4. MARO ITOJE 7/10
Probably one of England’s better players, has led his side to another (hollow) triumph.

5. OLLIE CHESSUM 7/10
An able replacement, his lineout ability came in handy and he did add energy to the effort.

6. TOM CURRY 6/10
In the battle of two decent back rows, he played well but was limping with an injury.

7. BEN EARL 6/10
Did not quite get into the action as he would normally have done, but has been one of the better England players.

8. TOM WILLIS 6/10
Sadly had to leave the field early on, Saracens will be hoping that his injury wasn’t serious.

Total 90/150
Scotland
15. BLAIR KINGHORN 7/10
A very fine player, really did deserve more forward momentum to show what he could do.

14. KYLE ROWE 6/10
Nothing special on the day, but at least he kept his momentum and took part in some of the key movements.

13. HUW JONES 7/10
An elite centre. If only Scotland had a bigger cannon to fire him at opponents.

12. TOM JORDAN 6/10
Had his moments, especially in movements leading to tries. He is likely to win many caps.

Star man
11. DUHAN VAN DER MERWE 8/10
The pedigree back on the pitch.

Scotland will rue not making more if his dominance.

10. FINN RUSSELL 6/10
Would have kicked himself for missing three vital conversions. One of those days.

9. BEN WHITE 6/10
He had more attacking ideas, probably learned from his days in Toulon, but in the end simply did not have the platform.

1. PIERRE SCHOEMAN 6/10
The South African is a redoubtable player, but could never establish an authority on the day before he was replaced.

2. DAVE CHERRY 7/10
Had an excellent battle with Cowan-Dickie, but had been frustrated at the outcome.

3. ZANDER FERGUSON 7/10
Scotland’s most effective forward, took part in a good battle but could not conjure a return.

4. JONNY GRAY 6/10
Showed reasonably well in the opening stages, otherwise could not inspire the pack.

5. GRANT GILCHRIST 5/10
Another worthy grafter, gave it everything but lacked the power to really trouble England.

6. JAMIE RITCHIE 7/10
Gave Scotland hope with his energy and drive with the ball in hand.

7. RORY DARGE 5/10
He was up against a decent back row, and could not rule the breakdown.

8. JACK DEMPSEY 5/10
Just lacking extra power with the ball in hand, a grafter but not much impact on proceedings.

Total 94/150

Pedigree chump.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2025 3:12 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:51 pm

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:49 pm

Bet he was really confused when they didn’t score for 60 minutes and we scored 9 points that won us the game.

He was probably flabbergasted by that…

It's almost like Borthwick planned to keep Scotland under pressure in their half, upping the tempo in the second half as their forwards tired. If we could stop knocking the damn ball on and resource rucks more competently than under 9s level we'd have scored more than 9 points in that period.

Have you seen the territory stats? If it all went to plan then the plan must’ve been to keep Scotland under pressure in our half…
These excuses are just, well, excuses. Our ruck speed has been poor for a while which suggests coaching failure.
If any team should be pissed off about not converting pressure to points it should be Scotland, imo.

Yeah we competed incompetently on the box kicks hence Sleightholme getting the shepherds crook just after half time, then gave away dumb penalties to let Scotland off the hook.

The ruck speed is also a worthless statistic. Any team that box kicks a lot will have a sluggish average ruck speed. Ruck speed in the opposition 22 that would be a statistic worth monitoring.

I've got no real issue playing this stodgy rope a dope shite occasionally to get a result. Considering the ref yesterday and Scotland's dual openside threat (Jamie Ritchie only getting 7/10 is a travesty) playing too many phases around our own half or middle of the pitch wasn't the best idea. I don't want to see it repeated for the next two games. We need to show a greater diversity in style.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2025 3:12 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:51 pm

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:49 pm

Bet he was really confused when they didn’t score for 60 minutes and we scored 9 points that won us the game.

He was probably flabbergasted by that…

It's almost like Borthwick planned to keep Scotland under pressure in their half, upping the tempo in the second half as their forwards tired. If we could stop knocking the damn ball on and resource rucks more competently than under 9s level we'd have scored more than 9 points in that period.

Have you seen the territory stats? If it all went to plan then the plan must’ve been to keep Scotland under pressure in our half…
These excuses are just, well, excuses. Our ruck speed has been poor for a while which suggests coaching failure.
If any team should be pissed off about not converting pressure to points it should be Scotland, imo.

I was reminded of match after match after match in the Jones 'golden era' when comments on here were of the 'how did we sneak that win playing such crap' type. We all know how that ended. So, is SB going to do better?

The narrow win over France seemed a great effort with seeds being set for the growth of a decent team. Yesterday's turgidity reversed that. In the DT, Greenwood asks why we play no rugby. Was it simply that Scotland's backrow outplayed ours, ruling the breakdown and denying Mitchell decent ball? Was it that SB thought we were not good enough to take on Scotland by keeping the ball in hand? Or, did the players under-perform on the day?

A win is a win but one similarity with the French game is the feeling that England's opposition somehow contrived to lose the game despite having the possession and territory to win it. Even then, we regressed to just scraping one try yesterday and hardly looked likely to score more.

Theoretically, we have played the three strongest teams. Will SB risk bolder tactics for the last two?

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2025 7:22 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2025 3:12 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:51 pm

It's almost like Borthwick planned to keep Scotland under pressure in their half, upping the tempo in the second half as their forwards tired. If we could stop knocking the damn ball on and resource rucks more competently than under 9s level we'd have scored more than 9 points in that period.

Have you seen the territory stats? If it all went to plan then the plan must’ve been to keep Scotland under pressure in our half…
These excuses are just, well, excuses. Our ruck speed has been poor for a while which suggests coaching failure.
If any team should be pissed off about not converting pressure to points it should be Scotland, imo.

Yeah we competed incompetently on the box kicks hence Sleightholme getting the shepherds crook just after half time, then gave away dumb penalties to let Scotland off the hook.

The ruck speed is also a worthless statistic. Any team that box kicks a lot will have a sluggish average ruck speed. Ruck speed in the opposition 22 that would be a statistic worth monitoring.

I've got no real issue playing this stodgy rope a dope shite occasionally to get a result. Considering the ref yesterday and Scotland's dual openside threat (Jamie Ritchie only getting 7/10 is a travesty) playing too many phases around our own half or middle of the pitch wasn't the best idea. I don't want to see it repeated for the next two games. We need to show a greater diversity in style.

So, Scotland didn’t score for 60mins because of Stubborn Bugger’s brilliant plan despite the plan not working?
You mentioned we didn’t resource rucks properly but that’s been a constant, given ruck speed times, over a number of matches so why is it an excuse specifically for losing yesterday?
What’s the reference to the ref about? Does he have a rep for being forgiving on the defence at the ruck? If so, why didn’t we take advantage as well as the Scots did, bar Itoje’s act of levitation?
Why are we letting Scotland’s dual openside threat dictate our game plan - especially when we didn’t know if it would be dual open side given they haven’t fielded the same backrow all tournament - when we’re also fielding two open sides with another on the bench (who I thought played bloody well when he came on) along with a rangy, pacey blindside and with two very mobile starting locks.

Just seems to be a lack of confidence amongst the players in what we are trying to do.

The fear of losing looks to be dominating our desire to win.

Wining is always better than losing. But.......

Jeez we were largely second rate.

The lack of any kind of ambition is just stultifying. Why have good runners in the backs and a creative FB if we arent going to trust them to play a bit? How many times do our outside backs touch the ball. What are they there for?

What I also thought surprising was our lack of drive an energy. At times we seemed to be idling in neutral with barely anyone showing much signs of life. The easy yards the Scots made with the ball was dreadful and the missed tackles!!!

The whole thing was just odd, and very unsatisfactory.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2025 9:14 am and the missed tackles!!!

The tackle completion % for the backs, Freeman aside, is grim.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2025 9:14 am Wining is always better than losing. But.......

Jeez we were largely second rate.

The lack of any kind of ambition is just stultifying. Why have good runners in the backs and a creative FB if we arent going to trust them to play a bit? How many times do our outside backs touch the ball. What are they there for?

What I also thought surprising was our lack of drive an energy. At times we seemed to be idling in neutral with barely anyone showing much signs of life. The easy yards the Scots made with the ball was dreadful and the missed tackles!!!

The whole thing was just odd, and very unsatisfactory.

Quite. Maybe we are desperate for an attacking coach with a brain?

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2025 9:23 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2025 9:14 am and the missed tackles!!!

The tackle completion % for the backs, Freeman aside, is grim.

Individual poor tackling or defensive system failure? My (subjective/selective) memory is of many desperate late tackles as Scots almost broke through.