EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Puja]

Yarde's reported as a dislocated kneecap which'll be 6 months. If true, sounds like he got lucky (for certain values of luck, of course).

Jonny May is expected to miss 2 weeks, but his shoulder injury is a stinger and bruising, not any joint or muscle damage. Good news for England.

Puja

[Timbo]

Good news on the Jonny May front.

I’d be very surprised (and pleased) to see Yarde playing again in 6 months. Seems wildly optimistic to me.

[Mikey Brown]

That’s probably 6 months and big old diamond dose of “man up and play”.

[Stom]

Hughes may be banned for 6 weeks for a punch, which would rule him out of the first 3 games of the AIs. Which, in my mind, is good. Maybe Mercer will get a chance, he's been in fine form.

[Timbo]

Hughes may be banned for 6 weeks for a punch, which would rule him out of the first 3 games of the AIs. Which, in my mind, is good. Maybe Mercer will get a chance, he's been in fine form.

Not good if that’s the case imo. It’s a tough Autumn and we’ll need to use the squad.

On the incident, Ludlow is lying on top of him and pinning him down, but no doubt Hughes has thrown a (soft) punch to the head. Think his best bet would be to plead guilty and hope for a significant reduction. Very much doubt he’ll cop 6 weeks. 3 weeks and they’ll include a Premiership Cup weekend and he’ll be back for the AI’s I reckon.

[twitchy]

Hughes may be banned for 6 weeks for a punch, which would rule him out of the first 3 games of the AIs. Which, in my mind, is good. Maybe Mercer will get a chance, he's been in fine form.

A bizarre mindset honestly, we need all the players available possible.

[Scrumhead]

I know where Stom is coming from. If Hughes is available, there’s a high chance Eddie will pick him despite the fact that he’s never really performed at test level. If he’s not, Mercer is in the box seat to get a shot and given he’s shone at every level so far, it’s not crazy to think he could be a better bet than Hughes.

[Puja]

I know where Stom is coming from. If Hughes is available, there’s a high chance Eddie will pick him despite the fact that he’s never really performed at test level. If he’s not, Mercer is in the box seat to get a shot and given he’s shone at every level so far, it’s not crazy to think he could be a better bet than Hughes.

Agreed. Hughes has had 17 caps and, while he has improved, there's no sign of him being anything more than adequate. I'd be much happier seeing if Mercer can step up.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Whilst I agree that it’s time to give Mercer a go, the idea of only having two no8’s and having to rely on both staying fit until December is a worry. I suppose Wilson could play there in extremis but that is hardly ideal.

[Digby]

Someone is going to cite Kvesic is playing 8

[Mellsblue]

Problem solved.

[Oakboy]

I like Mercer but Jones seems uncomfortable without significant bulk in the back row, preferably at 8. I agree that Hughes has yet to be any sort of dominant force for England. Having said that, I still think he could be a quality international 8 if he were to find form.

Mind you, what do I know? I thought Armand was a most skilful and effective back row at the weekend. How he can be ignored?

[fivepointer]

Hughes may be banned for 6 weeks for a punch, which would rule him out of the first 3 games of the AIs. Which, in my mind, is good. Maybe Mercer will get a chance, he's been in fine form.

Not good if that’s the case imo. It’s a tough Autumn and we’ll need to use the squad.

On the incident, Ludlow is lying on top of him and pinning him down, but no doubt Hughes has thrown a (soft) punch to the head. Think his best bet would be to plead guilty and hope for a significant reduction. Very much doubt he’ll cop 6 weeks. 3 weeks and they’ll include a Premiership Cup weekend and he’ll be back for the AI’s I reckon.

I have some sympathy for Hughes who is being held down. What is he supposed to do. Ask nicely is the Glos player would shift his arse?
3 weeks would seem to be about right, but such are the vagueries of the disciplinary process he might cop the full 6 weeks.

[Puja]

I like Mercer but Jones seems uncomfortable without significant bulk in the back row, preferably at 8. I agree that Hughes has yet to be any sort of dominant force for England. Having said that, I still think he could be a quality international 8 if he were to find form.

Mind you, what do I know? I thought Armand was a most skilful and effective back row at the weekend. How he can be ignored?

Is Mercer really less of a physical presence than Hughes?

Puja

[Stom]

Hughes may be banned for 6 weeks for a punch, which would rule him out of the first 3 games of the AIs. Which, in my mind, is good. Maybe Mercer will get a chance, he's been in fine form.

Not good if that’s the case imo. It’s a tough Autumn and we’ll need to use the squad.

On the incident, Ludlow is lying on top of him and pinning him down, but no doubt Hughes has thrown a (soft) punch to the head. Think his best bet would be to plead guilty and hope for a significant reduction. Very much doubt he’ll cop 6 weeks. 3 weeks and they’ll include a Premiership Cup weekend and he’ll be back for the AI’s I reckon.

I have some sympathy for Hughes who is being held down. What is he supposed to do. Ask nicely is the Glos player would shift his arse?
3 weeks would seem to be about right, but such are the vagueries of the disciplinary process he might cop the full 6 weeks.

I think the fact he was banned for striking an opponent not too long ago may count against him. Usually the way it works is:

Add 2 weeks for previous.
Minus 1 week for mitigating factors
Minus 2 week for pleading guilty
Minus 1 week for eating biscuits nicely

Total: 4 weeks off.

[Oakboy]

I like Mercer but Jones seems uncomfortable without significant bulk in the back row, preferably at 8. I agree that Hughes has yet to be any sort of dominant force for England. Having said that, I still think he could be a quality international 8 if he were to find form.

Mind you, what do I know? I thought Armand was a most skilful and effective back row at the weekend. How he can be ignored?

Is Mercer really less of a physical presence than Hughes?

Puja

Are you asking me or Jones? I think size tends to matter to Jones - hence Billy or Hughes. If you are just wanting physical effectiveness, Mercer fits my definition of that but does he fit Jones's?

Many talk about back row balance but it seems to me that there are different ways of achieving that. I care more about at least one of the trio being a significant lineout operator. I also want at least one to have genuine pace. Three Tom Crofts could make a balanced back row, for example. Balance does not have to be a tubby little groundhog at 7, a tackler at 6 and a giant at 8.

Currently, as with the debate for 9-13, selection of the back row revolves around who Jones has in the squad. I don't think he knows what his best trio is though nobody would argue against a fit Billy V being 1st choice for the 8 shirt. I can't make sense of any of it because week-in, week-out, I'd still have Armand as the next name on the team sheet but he never makes Jones's squads.

[Stom]

I like Mercer but Jones seems uncomfortable without significant bulk in the back row, preferably at 8. I agree that Hughes has yet to be any sort of dominant force for England. Having said that, I still think he could be a quality international 8 if he were to find form.

Mind you, what do I know? I thought Armand was a most skilful and effective back row at the weekend. How he can be ignored?

Is Mercer really less of a physical presence than Hughes?

Puja

Are you asking me or Jones? I think size tends to matter to Jones - hence Billy or Hughes. If you are just wanting physical effectiveness, Mercer fits my definition of that but does he fit Jones's?

Many talk about back row balance but it seems to me that there are different ways of achieving that. I care more about at least one of the trio being a significant lineout operator. I also want at least one to have genuine pace. Three Tom Crofts could make a balanced back row, for example. Balance does not have to be a tubby little groundhog at 7, a tackler at 6 and a giant at 8.

Currently, as with the debate for 9-13, selection of the back row revolves around who Jones has in the squad. I don't think he knows what his best trio is though nobody would argue against a fit Billy V being 1st choice for the 8 shirt. I can't make sense of any of it because week-in, week-out, I'd still have Armand as the next name on the team sheet but he never makes Jones's squads.

Really? You keep saying this, but I think Eddie has pretty consistently chosen a similar style backrow.

It's Robshaw, Underhill/Curry/someone else, BillyV. I think it's fair to have 2 down and 1 position still not fully decided, especially when the main contenders are younger players who only recently came through.

As for me, I wouldn't make any proscriptions about backrow makeup without knowing the style and system that we're going to play. If we're going to play like Sarries, then probably you'd want to pick Shields at 6. If you're going to play like Exeter, you may want Mercer. And it goes on.

Personally, I like the idea of picking a backrow who complement each others skills, can compete both in the tight and the loose, and mix power with dexterity. So I would pretty much go with what Eddie has gone for: Robshaw, Curry, Billy. With Mercer on the bench.

Also, with Gustard at Quins, it's interesting to see which of England's ideas get reused at Quins. We've consistently had the same problems England have had on penalties, defense and picking big useless lumps instead of skillful smaller players. So I think it will be interesting to see how England get on without him. There could be a change there. I guess we'll see soon enough.

[Oakboy]

Is Mercer really less of a physical presence than Hughes?

Puja

Are you asking me or Jones? I think size tends to matter to Jones - hence Billy or Hughes. If you are just wanting physical effectiveness, Mercer fits my definition of that but does he fit Jones's?

Many talk about back row balance but it seems to me that there are different ways of achieving that. I care more about at least one of the trio being a significant lineout operator. I also want at least one to have genuine pace. Three Tom Crofts could make a balanced back row, for example. Balance does not have to be a tubby little groundhog at 7, a tackler at 6 and a giant at 8.

Currently, as with the debate for 9-13, selection of the back row revolves around who Jones has in the squad. I don't think he knows what his best trio is though nobody would argue against a fit Billy V being 1st choice for the 8 shirt. I can't make sense of any of it because week-in, week-out, I'd still have Armand as the next name on the team sheet but he never makes Jones's squads.

Really? You keep saying this, but I think Eddie has pretty consistently chosen a similar style backrow.

It's Robshaw, Underhill/Curry/someone else, BillyV. I think it's fair to have 2 down and 1 position still not fully decided, especially when the main contenders are younger players who only recently came through.

As for me, I wouldn't make any proscriptions about backrow makeup without knowing the style and system that we're going to play. If we're going to play like Sarries, then probably you'd want to pick Shields at 6. If you're going to play like Exeter, you may want Mercer. And it goes on.

Personally, I like the idea of picking a backrow who complement each others skills, can compete both in the tight and the loose, and mix power with dexterity. So I would pretty much go with what Eddie has gone for: Robshaw, Curry, Billy. With Mercer on the bench.

Also, with Gustard at Quins, it's interesting to see which of England's ideas get reused at Quins. We've consistently had the same problems England have had on penalties, defense and picking big useless lumps instead of skillful smaller players. So I think it will be interesting to see how England get on without him. There could be a change there. I guess we'll see soon enough.

There's a lot in what you say, Stom, but I'm not convinced that Jones is fixed on Robshaw at 6. It could be Shields, Rhodes or even Itoje. The 7 shirt could be Curry, Underhill, Robshaw or Willis. Billy is at 8 if fit but if not?

Maybe you are right and his 1st choice is Robshaw, Curry and Billy. If that is the case, I find it odd that he contiinues to call up so many others for squad training. Is that just about the bench spot and back-up? To me, it smacks more of being undecided. As you say, we'll find out more in due course. Thursday week for the AIs squad, isn't it?

[Puja]

He really should be fixed on Robshaw at 6. He's still churning out quality performances and the only risk to him is his inevitable exhaustion and burnout. He should never have gone to South Africa, especially not to be f*cked about. Hopefully Quins will do the right thing by him and rest him for the European weekends.

Puja

[Digby]

Problem solved.

Someone else will observe, as with Simmonds, that Kvesic hardly meets Eddie's seeming requirements. Which brings us back to how does Eddie want the team to attacking, so far the system dictates selection with Eddie's assessment we're shit at rugby and can't be trusted

[Digby]

He really should be fixed on Robshaw at 6. He's still churning out quality performances and the only risk to him is his inevitable exhaustion and burnout. He should never have gone to South Africa, especially not to be f*cked about. Hopefully Quins will do the right thing by him and rest him for the European weekends.

Puja

Robshaw was miles off the pace in SA, and even allowing for fatigue I don't see much that makes him an obvious candidate to succeed at test level unless the rest of his pack really covers his lack of pace

Maybe we can get away with having a more turgid player in a Hartley or a Robshaw, but if we start stacking the pack with them we'd better start some rain dances

[Stom]

Are you asking me or Jones? I think size tends to matter to Jones - hence Billy or Hughes. If you are just wanting physical effectiveness, Mercer fits my definition of that but does he fit Jones's?

Many talk about back row balance but it seems to me that there are different ways of achieving that. I care more about at least one of the trio being a significant lineout operator. I also want at least one to have genuine pace. Three Tom Crofts could make a balanced back row, for example. Balance does not have to be a tubby little groundhog at 7, a tackler at 6 and a giant at 8.

Currently, as with the debate for 9-13, selection of the back row revolves around who Jones has in the squad. I don't think he knows what his best trio is though nobody would argue against a fit Billy V being 1st choice for the 8 shirt. I can't make sense of any of it because week-in, week-out, I'd still have Armand as the next name on the team sheet but he never makes Jones's squads.

Really? You keep saying this, but I think Eddie has pretty consistently chosen a similar style backrow.

It's Robshaw, Underhill/Curry/someone else, BillyV. I think it's fair to have 2 down and 1 position still not fully decided, especially when the main contenders are younger players who only recently came through.

As for me, I wouldn't make any proscriptions about backrow makeup without knowing the style and system that we're going to play. If we're going to play like Sarries, then probably you'd want to pick Shields at 6. If you're going to play like Exeter, you may want Mercer. And it goes on.

Personally, I like the idea of picking a backrow who complement each others skills, can compete both in the tight and the loose, and mix power with dexterity. So I would pretty much go with what Eddie has gone for: Robshaw, Curry, Billy. With Mercer on the bench.

Also, with Gustard at Quins, it's interesting to see which of England's ideas get reused at Quins. We've consistently had the same problems England have had on penalties, defense and picking big useless lumps instead of skillful smaller players. So I think it will be interesting to see how England get on without him. There could be a change there. I guess we'll see soon enough.

There's a lot in what you say, Stom, but I'm not convinced that Jones is fixed on Robshaw at 6. It could be Shields, Rhodes or even Itoje. The 7 shirt could be Curry, Underhill, Robshaw or Willis. Billy is at 8 if fit but if not?

Maybe you are right and his 1st choice is Robshaw, Curry and Billy. If that is the case, I find it odd that he contiinues to call up so many others for squad training. Is that just about the bench spot and back-up? To me, it smacks more of being undecided. As you say, we'll find out more in due course. Thursday week for the AIs squad, isn't it?

You see, I think it's vital that we get squad numbers 27-31 right. If Robshaw gets injured, I want a ready made replacement. And the time for that has been fairly recently (this year's games, including SA, were the perfect opportunity). So I think it's perfect to be using several players right now, as we're trying to fill in who is backrow number 6. And potentially number 5, too.

And I think that's the case across the squad. We kind of know positions 1-16, 19 and 23, and need to fill in the final 5 bench spots.

[Scrumhead]

I like Mercer but Jones seems uncomfortable without significant bulk in the back row, preferably at 8. I agree that Hughes has yet to be any sort of dominant force for England. Having said that, I still think he could be a quality international 8 if he were to find form.

Mind you, what do I know? I thought Armand was a most skilful and effective back row at the weekend. How he can be ignored?

Is Mercer really less of a physical presence than Hughes?

Puja

Faf de Klerk says no

[twitchy]

If you think about it what really is mass? Like we are all just energy man. A mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

[Puja]

He really should be fixed on Robshaw at 6. He's still churning out quality performances and the only risk to him is his inevitable exhaustion and burnout. He should never have gone to South Africa, especially not to be f*cked about. Hopefully Quins will do the right thing by him and rest him for the European weekends.

Puja

Robshaw was miles off the pace in SA, and even allowing for fatigue I don't see much that makes him an obvious candidate to succeed at test level unless the rest of his pack really covers his lack of pace

Maybe we can get away with having a more turgid player in a Hartley or a Robshaw, but if we start stacking the pack with them we'd better start some rain dances

The difference between him and Hughes is that Robshaw *has* succeeded at test level in the past. He was rubbish in South Africa, but the poor sod's been carrying Quins for years and doing the donkey work for England all season (and basically beig the only working back row for most of the 6N selections). He needed a rest.

He's now turning in typical tireless performances for Quins and looks to be in prime form. He's not a turgid player that you get away with - he's the glue that allows others to shine. Yes, it'd be nice if he had a bit more pace, but I'd rather have someone at 6 who keeps running and grinds himself into the ground for the team than someone with more flash and less work ethic.

Puja