Premiership financial issues

[Mr Mwenda]

Lots of sad things popping up calling Irish "more than just a club" but not seen anything about Richmond and London Scottish back in the day....

[Puja]

Lots of sad things popping up calling Irish "more than just a club" but not seen anything about Richmond and London Scottish back in the day....

This is their second death technically, as the fiction for booting them was that they had "merged" with Irish to form a new club, London Irish Scottish Richmond, which was entirely made up of the LIrish squad, plus one Richmond player.

RIP London Irish Scottish Richmond, whose full name was never said and may have been officially changed after a couple of seasons. (ETA. Nope, looks like that's still the name on companies house)

Puja

[Puja]

Bang on. This is painful and awful and I would much prefer if we could relaunch Irish, Wasps, and Wuss in the Championship (with Wasps preferably being where they belong rather than squatting in the Midlands)...

Well, this just sounds worryingly promising: https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://ww ... iership-2/

Common sense? Actually attempting to build a viable second tier with reasonable funding and a coherent link and connection to the Prem, that isn't just an oubliette for whatever team gets relegated one season? This does *not* sound like the RFU that I know.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

I would love it - but I don't see the current owners of any of those clubs being willing to cough up and make it happen.

[fivepointer]

Bang on. This is painful and awful and I would much prefer if we could relaunch Irish, Wasps, and Wuss in the Championship (with Wasps preferably being where they belong rather than squatting in the Midlands)...

Well, this just sounds worryingly promising: https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://ww ... iership-2/

Common sense? Actually attempting to build a viable second tier with reasonable funding and a coherent link and connection to the Prem, that isn't just an oubliette for whatever team gets relegated one season? This does *not* sound like the RFU that I know.

Puja

The penny's dropped and minds are getting focused. About bloody time. Those running the game know they've got to put something together that is credible and sustainable.
I'm encouraged.

[FKAS]

Hmm lots of talk about branding and bringing back the lost clubs. I'm not sure I agree about parachuting them back into the Championship, especially as what's being mooted here sounds like an effective ringfencing arrangement but including the Championship and not just the Prem. Sounds like a good excuse to cut off the leagues below and any unfashionable clubs to get the known names in.

Not enough talk about funding either. I'd prefer some much stricter ownership criteria as well.

[Banquo]

Literally, show me the money.

[Puja]

Hmm lots of talk about branding and bringing back the lost clubs. I'm not sure I agree about parachuting them back into the Championship, especially as what's being mooted here sounds like an effective ringfencing arrangement but including the Championship and not just the Prem. Sounds like a good excuse to cut off the leagues below and any unfashionable clubs to get the known names in.

Not enough talk about funding either. I'd prefer some much stricter ownership criteria as well.

I'm assuming this is all part of the 100 guy's plan to attract investors for 2025 with a full relaunch of pro rugby and offering the opportunity to invest in "Prem 2" franchises that aren't just a badly-organised hole to throw money into, but a viable entity that is linked with "Prem 1" and has guaranteed promotion, relegation, and cup competition.

I understand the feeling of unfairness on ringfencing and rewriting the rules to allow fashionable names back in, but the truth is that we cannot have a full pyramid in England - rugby just isn't big enough and it just doesn't work. We are going to need to separate the professional and the amateur games - not necessarily imperviously (I'd be in favour of a well organised and ambitious club, that meets some MSC, being allowed to apply for entry into "Prem 2"), but it cannot just be done on sporting merit alone because the money and interest is not there to support anything below the Championship and you cannot have a professional entity that you are trying to have people invest in that could disappear into an amateur comp with a bad season. A fence will need to be ringed somewhere and I'd be much more in favour of doing it under "Prem 2" than pulling up the drawbridge under "Prem 1" and only having 10 pro teams.

And there's no doubt that it'll be easier to drum up interest in Prem 2 as a commercial vehicle if it contains Wasps and London Irish (don't know if Worcester would have much name recognition to non-rugby folk). I'd go a step further and, while sporting success would be one of the criteria, I'd also like to see "Prem 2" franchises picked on things like geographical spread, so that our 18-20 pro and semi-pro clubs cover a better span of the country and we don't get things like Colchester school children having to travel to Northampton.

If I was allowed to pick, I'd have Irish and Ealing rounding out London, with Wasps either eastern side of the city or actively in East Anglia. I'd then have Worcester, Bedford, and Coventry covering the already pretty well-covered Midlands, Pirates for Cornwall, Jersey (if they're interested) because it's a good underdog story to sell (and also that would be just reward for their results), and then Doncaster and AN Other to try and cover more of the north than just Manchester and Newcastle. But that does require finding 10 people willing to invest in a rugby club, which feels ambitious.

Puja

[Margin_Walker]

It's the investment that's key really. Once you get past any distaste that some fans will have about merit etc, I think a 20 team pro game, where some level of planning has gone into rounding out prem 2 makes sense.

But as you and banquo mention. There need to be willing investors/where is the money coming from?

Speaking purely for LI. You'd have to assume Hazelwood and other assets are gone to repay the covid loans and crossan. So then you need somewhere to train before you even start thinking about recruiting staff and players and putting in place a ground share. It may be that someone would be willing to step in at that point with the liabilities gone and more modest ongoing costs than funding a prem team, but it's still a big hill to climb.

[Mellsblue]

Hmm lots of talk about branding and bringing back the lost clubs. I'm not sure I agree about parachuting them back into the Championship, especially as what's being mooted here sounds like an effective ringfencing arrangement but including the Championship and not just the Prem. Sounds like a good excuse to cut off the leagues below and any unfashionable clubs to get the known names in.

Not enough talk about funding either. I'd prefer some much stricter ownership criteria as well.

I'm assuming this is all part of the 100 guy's plan to attract investors for 2025 with a full relaunch of pro rugby and offering the opportunity to invest in "Prem 2" franchises that aren't just a badly-organised hole to throw money into, but a viable entity that is linked with "Prem 1" and has guaranteed promotion, relegation, and cup competition.

I understand the feeling of unfairness on ringfencing and rewriting the rules to allow fashionable names back in, but the truth is that we cannot have a full pyramid in England - rugby just isn't big enough and it just doesn't work. We are going to need to separate the professional and the amateur games - not necessarily imperviously (I'd be in favour of a well organised and ambitious club, that meets some MSC, being allowed to apply for entry into "Prem 2"), but it cannot just be done on sporting merit alone because the money and interest is not there to support anything below the Championship and you cannot have a professional entity that you are trying to have people invest in that could disappear into an amateur comp with a bad season. A fence will need to be ringed somewhere and I'd be much more in favour of doing it under "Prem 2" than pulling up the drawbridge under "Prem 1" and only having 10 pro teams.

And there's no doubt that it'll be easier to drum up interest in Prem 2 as a commercial vehicle if it contains Wasps and London Irish (don't know if Worcester would have much name recognition to non-rugby folk). I'd go a step further and, while sporting success would be one of the criteria, I'd also like to see "Prem 2" franchises picked on things like geographical spread, so that our 18-20 pro and semi-pro clubs cover a better span of the country and we don't get things like Colchester school children having to travel to Northampton.

If I was allowed to pick, I'd have Irish and Ealing rounding out London, with Wasps either eastern side of the city or actively in East Anglia. I'd then have Worcester, Bedford, and Coventry covering the already pretty well-covered Midlands, Pirates for Cornwall, Jersey (if they're interested) because it's a good underdog story to sell (and also that would be just reward for their results), and then Doncaster and AN Other to try and cover more of the north than just Manchester and Newcastle. But that does require finding 10 people willing to invest in a rugby club, which feels ambitious.

Puja

The Jersey DoR was on the Champ (I think) pod after they won the league and they ate interested as he said they were a year or two in advance of where they want to be, ie challenging and beating Ealing (plus whoever would’ve been the 13th PRL team) for promotion. Which would tie in with the mooted 24/25 season launch.
I think the final north team would need to be Leeds and they would probs need to based on the northern edge of the city to attract the Otley, Ilkley, Harrogate, York and Wharfedale parts of the world. West Park Leeds would be perfect assuming they could get planning permission for a stadium, especially if you also granted them a Allianz Prem franchise (there is a lot of bad blood over the fact they don’t already have one). You might even attract Lancaster back to be HC.

[Puja]

Hmm lots of talk about branding and bringing back the lost clubs. I'm not sure I agree about parachuting them back into the Championship, especially as what's being mooted here sounds like an effective ringfencing arrangement but including the Championship and not just the Prem. Sounds like a good excuse to cut off the leagues below and any unfashionable clubs to get the known names in.

Not enough talk about funding either. I'd prefer some much stricter ownership criteria as well.

I'm assuming this is all part of the 100 guy's plan to attract investors for 2025 with a full relaunch of pro rugby and offering the opportunity to invest in "Prem 2" franchises that aren't just a badly-organised hole to throw money into, but a viable entity that is linked with "Prem 1" and has guaranteed promotion, relegation, and cup competition.

I understand the feeling of unfairness on ringfencing and rewriting the rules to allow fashionable names back in, but the truth is that we cannot have a full pyramid in England - rugby just isn't big enough and it just doesn't work. We are going to need to separate the professional and the amateur games - not necessarily imperviously (I'd be in favour of a well organised and ambitious club, that meets some MSC, being allowed to apply for entry into "Prem 2"), but it cannot just be done on sporting merit alone because the money and interest is not there to support anything below the Championship and you cannot have a professional entity that you are trying to have people invest in that could disappear into an amateur comp with a bad season. A fence will need to be ringed somewhere and I'd be much more in favour of doing it under "Prem 2" than pulling up the drawbridge under "Prem 1" and only having 10 pro teams.

And there's no doubt that it'll be easier to drum up interest in Prem 2 as a commercial vehicle if it contains Wasps and London Irish (don't know if Worcester would have much name recognition to non-rugby folk). I'd go a step further and, while sporting success would be one of the criteria, I'd also like to see "Prem 2" franchises picked on things like geographical spread, so that our 18-20 pro and semi-pro clubs cover a better span of the country and we don't get things like Colchester school children having to travel to Northampton.

If I was allowed to pick, I'd have Irish and Ealing rounding out London, with Wasps either eastern side of the city or actively in East Anglia. I'd then have Worcester, Bedford, and Coventry covering the already pretty well-covered Midlands, Pirates for Cornwall, Jersey (if they're interested) because it's a good underdog story to sell (and also that would be just reward for their results), and then Doncaster and AN Other to try and cover more of the north than just Manchester and Newcastle. But that does require finding 10 people willing to invest in a rugby club, which feels ambitious.

Puja

The Jersey DoR was on the Champ (I think) pod after they won the league and they ate interested as he said they were a year or two in advance of where they want to be, ie challenging and beating Ealing (plus whoever would’ve been the 13th PRL team) for promotion. Which would tie in with the mooted 24/25 season launch.
I think the final north team would need to be Leeds and they would probs need to based on the northern edge of the city to attract the Otley, Ilkley, Harrogate, York and Wharfedale parts of the world. West Park Leeds would be perfect assuming they could get planning permission for a stadium, especially if you also granted them a Allianz Prem franchise (there is a lot of bad blood over the fact they don’t already have one). You might even attract Lancaster back to be HC.

Leeds were a name that I thought about, but there's a risk in pulling someone up from NL2 North (especially when they were so comprehensively relegated from NL1 last season) anf they would be (relatively) on the doorstep of Doncaster.

There's no-one really leaping out in the North though. The big names of the past: Orrell, West Hartlepool, Waterloo, Rotherham are all lower divisions now. Possibly best to have an 8 team league, let Bedford/Worcester/Coventry fight over 2 spots in the Midlands and start looking for a northern team to develop as a prospect for 2-3 years' time?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I'm assuming this is all part of the 100 guy's plan to attract investors for 2025 with a full relaunch of pro rugby and offering the opportunity to invest in "Prem 2" franchises that aren't just a badly-organised hole to throw money into, but a viable entity that is linked with "Prem 1" and has guaranteed promotion, relegation, and cup competition.

I understand the feeling of unfairness on ringfencing and rewriting the rules to allow fashionable names back in, but the truth is that we cannot have a full pyramid in England - rugby just isn't big enough and it just doesn't work. We are going to need to separate the professional and the amateur games - not necessarily imperviously (I'd be in favour of a well organised and ambitious club, that meets some MSC, being allowed to apply for entry into "Prem 2"), but it cannot just be done on sporting merit alone because the money and interest is not there to support anything below the Championship and you cannot have a professional entity that you are trying to have people invest in that could disappear into an amateur comp with a bad season. A fence will need to be ringed somewhere and I'd be much more in favour of doing it under "Prem 2" than pulling up the drawbridge under "Prem 1" and only having 10 pro teams.

And there's no doubt that it'll be easier to drum up interest in Prem 2 as a commercial vehicle if it contains Wasps and London Irish (don't know if Worcester would have much name recognition to non-rugby folk). I'd go a step further and, while sporting success would be one of the criteria, I'd also like to see "Prem 2" franchises picked on things like geographical spread, so that our 18-20 pro and semi-pro clubs cover a better span of the country and we don't get things like Colchester school children having to travel to Northampton.

If I was allowed to pick, I'd have Irish and Ealing rounding out London, with Wasps either eastern side of the city or actively in East Anglia. I'd then have Worcester, Bedford, and Coventry covering the already pretty well-covered Midlands, Pirates for Cornwall, Jersey (if they're interested) because it's a good underdog story to sell (and also that would be just reward for their results), and then Doncaster and AN Other to try and cover more of the north than just Manchester and Newcastle. But that does require finding 10 people willing to invest in a rugby club, which feels ambitious.

Puja

The Jersey DoR was on the Champ (I think) pod after they won the league and they ate interested as he said they were a year or two in advance of where they want to be, ie challenging and beating Ealing (plus whoever would’ve been the 13th PRL team) for promotion. Which would tie in with the mooted 24/25 season launch.
I think the final north team would need to be Leeds and they would probs need to based on the northern edge of the city to attract the Otley, Ilkley, Harrogate, York and Wharfedale parts of the world. West Park Leeds would be perfect assuming they could get planning permission for a stadium, especially if you also granted them a Allianz Prem franchise (there is a lot of bad blood over the fact they don’t already have one). You might even attract Lancaster back to be HC.

Leeds were a name that I thought about, but there's a risk in pulling someone up from NL2 North (especially when they were so comprehensively relegated from NL1 last season) anf they would be (relatively) on the doorstep of Doncaster.

There's no-one really leaping out in the North though. The big names of the past: Orrell, West Hartlepool, Waterloo, Rotherham are all lower divisions now. Possibly best to have an 8 team league, let Bedford/Worcester/Coventry fight over 2 spots in the Midlands and start looking for a northern team to develop as a prospect for 2-3 years' time?

Puja

If you base them on the northern edge of Leeds then they are in no way in competition with Doncaster. If you’re going to artificially create two leagues based on geography and local population then I don’t see the harm of yanking Leeds up to a ‘Prem 2’. It’s not great but, as you say, what’s the other option.
It would provide some good A1 away days. Bedford, Doncaster, Leeds and Newcastle. You can add in Leicester now the A46 is a dual carriage way.

[jimKRFC]

Not sure where to put it, but in an effort to fill the home game gaps Bristol have now added the Crusaders to the Fixture list, with them and the BaaBaa's that two more home gates.

Just seen it's included in the season ticket as well.

[jimKRFC]

Link to a Chris Foy article about the government covid loan repayment and that four clubs (Bath, Bristol, Exeter & Sarries) are against plans to keep the lower salary cap and are looking to go back to the agreed £6.5M cap.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ffort.html

[FKAS]

I'm surprised that Exeter are one of the teams pushing for an increase in the cap. They can't be at the cap currently unless there's more players to be announced as 4 are confirmed in and 16 confirmed out including some of their biggest names.

Bristol, Bath and Sarries all have owners willing to put their hand in their pocket though so I can imagine they will want to push on if at all possible.

[Margin_Walker]

Yep, Exeter are a really odd name on that list. They look for all the world like they have been cost cutting. Not sure how a rise in cap would benefit them.

[Oakboy]

[float=]

I'm surprised that Exeter are one of the teams pushing for an increase in the cap. They can't be at the cap currently unless there's more players to be announced as 4 are confirmed in and 16 confirmed out including some of their biggest names.

Bristol, Bath and Sarries all have owners willing to put their hand in their pocket though so I can imagine they will want to push on if at all possible.

I don't know Exeter's reasoning but perhaps it relates to how good they were before the cap was reduced and how poor they were when the cut came. Maybe, not coincidence?

[Which Tyler]

I'm surprised that Exeter are one of the teams pushing for an increase in the cap. They can't be at the cap currently unless there's more players to be announced as 4 are confirmed in and 16 confirmed out including some of their biggest names.

Always worth remembering, Exeter signed pretty much everybody up to new 3-year deals when Covid hit, the cap reduced, but those contracts were able to put 25% outside of the cap.
Those come due this summer, so those players would all be being offered a 25% cut; or let go, so that the rest can be paid properly.

Given that allowance, it's basically impossible to judge who's where in relationship to the cap based on ins vs outs.
In sheer numbers, I don't think 4 in, 16 out, is outside of the ordinary (though the number of those who are starters for Ex. surely is; but IMO is explained by the above)

[Banquo]

Not sure where to put it, but in an effort to fill the home game gaps Bristol have now added the Crusaders to the Fixture list, with them and the BaaBaa's that two more home gates.

Just seen it's included in the season ticket as well.

Is our (Cambridge) Prem Cup game against you in the season ticket? 745 on a Friday night.....cracking M25 journey

[Mellsblue]

Exeter probably just want to be able to pay their academy products which they keep losing - not that (m)any of the current graduates scream big salary. They’ve also just finished improving their facilities which they’ll obvs hope will improve income.
Teams don’t have to go up to the salary cap and imagine that their bargaining power has never been stronger.

[FKAS]

I'm surprised that Exeter are one of the teams pushing for an increase in the cap. They can't be at the cap currently unless there's more players to be announced as 4 are confirmed in and 16 confirmed out including some of their biggest names.

Always worth remembering, Exeter signed pretty much everybody up to new 3-year deals when Covid hit, the cap reduced, but those contracts were able to put 25% outside of the cap.
Those come due this summer, so those players would all be being offered a 25% cut; or let go, so that the rest can be paid properly.

Given that allowance, it's basically impossible to judge who's where in relationship to the cap based on ins vs outs.
In sheer numbers, I don't think 4 in, 16 out, is outside of the ordinary (though the number of those who are starters for Ex. surely is; but IMO is explained by the above)

I'd forgotten they'd used that loophole. A lot of the high earners are out the door though, even if a lot of those remaining are now on a position to renegotiate for new contracts it's not a good market to do that unless you want to go to France. Which admittedly quite a few have done. I'm still expecting more signings to be announced by them.

[Tigersman]

Bristol and Bath struggled in the league this year despite spending up to the cap, let's be real they are not competing against the Irish or French teams at all currently so kinda funny how they want to spend purely because they think it will solve their prem rut despite trying to window dress it as a European thing.

At least Exeter and Sarries have both won stuff recently, although unsure if Exeter are that level anymore they challenege in Europe. Meanwhile Bath isn't even in the champions cup and Bristol got in through the back door.

Almost as if Bath and Bristol might need to learn that it isn't the cap causing them issues.

[Which Tyler]

Bristol and Bath struggled in the league this year despite spending up to the cap, let's be real they are not competing against the Irish or French teams at all currently so kinda funny how they want to spend purely because they think it will solve their prem rut despite trying to window dress it as a European thing.

At least Exeter and Sarries have both won stuff recently, although unsure if Exeter are that level anymore they challenege in Europe. Meanwhile Bath isn't even in the champions cup and Bristol got in through the back door.

Almost as if Bath and Bristol might need to learn that it isn't the cap causing them issues.

It's not like Craig and Landowne have ever tried to spend their way to the top before...

Erm, and what do you mean about Bath not being in the Champions Cup?
For some, really obvious reason, the elite competition of European rugby has 80% representation for the least elite league in Europe (as well as a few not-European teams)

Also, to be fair, under JvG things do seem to be changing at Bath - whether for the better or not is TBD, but Craig will always want to throw his credit card around at the shiniest of toys.

[Tigersman]

Bristol and Bath struggled in the league this year despite spending up to the cap, let's be real they are not competing against the Irish or French teams at all currently so kinda funny how they want to spend purely because they think it will solve their prem rut despite trying to window dress it as a European thing.

At least Exeter and Sarries have both won stuff recently, although unsure if Exeter are that level anymore they challenege in Europe. Meanwhile Bath isn't even in the champions cup and Bristol got in through the back door.

Almost as if Bath and Bristol might need to learn that it isn't the cap causing them issues.

It's not like Craig and Landowne have ever tried to spend their way to the top before...

Erm, and what do you mean about Bath not being in the Champions Cup?
For some, really obvious reason, the elite competition of European rugby has 80% representation for the least elite league in Europe (as well as a few not-European teams)

Also, to be fair, under JvG things do seem to be changing at Bath - whether for the better or not is TBD, but Craig will always want to throw his credit card around at the shiniest of toys.

Oh yeh forgot it's 8 Prem teams now.
I understand that they want to spend to the top, I just find it funny saying it's to compete with the Irish and French when clearly it's more to do with making it "easier" to win the league

Sarries I understand the want to up the cap TBF.

I don't mind the idea of the cap going up, but would rather it was through academy allowance increases than a outright increase.

[jimKRFC]

I'm surprised that Exeter are one of the teams pushing for an increase in the cap. They can't be at the cap currently unless there's more players to be announced as 4 are confirmed in and 16 confirmed out including some of their biggest names.

Always worth remembering, Exeter signed pretty much everybody up to new 3-year deals when Covid hit, the cap reduced, but those contracts were able to put 25% outside of the cap.
Those come due this summer, so those players would all be being offered a 25% cut; or let go, so that the rest can be paid properly.

Given that allowance, it's basically impossible to judge who's where in relationship to the cap based on ins vs outs.
In sheer numbers, I don't think 4 in, 16 out, is outside of the ordinary (though the number of those who are starters for Ex. surely is; but IMO is explained by the above)

I'd forgotten they'd used that loophole. A lot of the high earners are out the door though, even if a lot of those remaining are now on a position to renegotiate for new contracts it's not a good market to do that unless you want to go to France. Which admittedly quite a few have done. I'm still expecting more signings to be announced by them.

Bristol did as well, we also complicated things by keeping players PL wanted to let go as well...

Bristol never wanted to decrease the cap - so its not a shock that the club want it to go back up. I can see how the signing of Charles Puitau and Semi dove the profile of Bristol up and potentially helped pay for themselves (we'll never know without full access to the financial details though).