RugbyRebels

I don't see why that would be unpopular on here at all. The RFU have certainly done something to unite Eddie lovers and Eddie haters in thinking the timing and clarity of this move is all wrong.

I think I agree with basically all of that. I'm sure I've even asked that same question how they managed to make this decision both too late and too early.

Now if you were to be unpopular for the way you've formatted that block of text I'd struggle to defend you.

Dan. Dan. Dan. wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:47 am I just think the RFU has proper shit the bed.

This

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:05 amNow if you were to be unpopular for the way you've formatted that block of text I'd struggle to defend you.

Fixed with an abuse of Mod powers.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:05 am

Now if you were to be unpopular for the way you've formatted that block of text I'd struggle to defend you.

So, the Granuiad believes the next coach could pick 5 England teams… ermmm.

Five England players for each starting position
Hide
1) Ellis Genge, Mako Vunipola, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Joe Marler, Alec Hepburn

2) Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jamie George, George McGuigan, Jack Singleton, Jack Walker

3) Kyle Sinckler, Will Stuart, Dan Cole, Joe Heyes, Nick Schonert

4) Maro Itoje, Charlie Ewels, Ollie Chessum, Hugh Tizard, Dave Attwood

5) Jonny Hill, David Ribbans, Nick Isiekwe, Joe Launchbury, George Martin

6) Courtney Lawes, Alex Coles, Jack Willis, Tom Pearson, Tom Willis

7) Tom Curry, Sam Simmonds, Ben Earl, Ted Hill, Lewis Ludlow

8) Billy Vunipola, Alex Dombrandt, Zach Mercer, Lewis Ludluam, Alfie Barbeary

9) Jack van Poortvliet, Ben Youngs, Raffi Quirke, Alex Mitchell, Danny Care

10) Marcus Smith, George Ford, Orlando Bailey, Charlie Atkinson, Alex Goode

11) Jonny May, Elliot Daly, Henry Arundell, Adam Radwan, Cadan Murley

12) Owen Farrell, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Alex Lozowski, Luke Northmore

13) Manu Tuilagi, Guy Porter, Ollie Lawrence, Joe Marchant, Paolo Odogwu

14) Jack Nowell, Joe Cokanasiga, Max Malins, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Ollie Thorley

15) Freddie Steward, Tommy Freeman, Anthony Watson, George Furbank, Joe Carpenter

Is Rodd really that low down the list, or did the writer think he was Welsh.

No RICH LANE!!! It’s a travesty.

I mean it’s just a rather sketchy depth chart isn’t it? Impressive to get so many locks/backrows in the wrong positions and 3 outside centres at 12.

All I'd say is that the England job is not the first that Jones has messed up, turning from Mr Popular to most fans' public enemy. Nobody can doubt his international experience or his love of rugby. Unfortunately, he cannot sustain his motivational powers and, IMO, had no chance of doing so here when constantly criticising English rugby and being a smart-arse. There will always be debate about the extent to which he was entitled to take all the credit for his initial run of success, especially in the light of Lancaster's and A Farrell's subsequent success/standing.

Two questions remain: 1. Was Jones's departure correct at the time that it occurred?; 2. Overall, was he good for English rugby?

Of course, with hindsight, would you get the same answers for Jones as you would if you asked the same questions about Lancaster/Farrell?

I've made my opinion of Jones clear over the years but I wanted Lancaster/Farrell out at the time so I can't claim anything in their direction. Now, if I could have Farrell/Edwards I'd certainly prefer it to Borthwick.

Having said that, I'd be amazed if Borthwick does not get a better 6N performance than Jones managed in the last two. To that extent, the timing of Jones's dismissal does not worry me in the least.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:46 pm I mean it’s just a rather sketchy depth chart isn’t it? Impressive to get so many locks/backrows in the wrong positions and 3 outside centres at 12.

Plus they've shoehorned Anthony Watson in at 15 for some reason. I can only assume that they were running out of full-back names and just decided to shove a winger in there to bulk it out.

Puja

I don't know if we over achieved or are now under achieving........all I know is I don't like it. As such glad to see him go.

Sacking Eddie is definitely a tacit admission from the RFU that they don’t actually believe a coach needs 3 or 4 years to build a World Cup winning team. 9 months is apparently enough.

Zach Mercer was relatively open about Eddie going and hinted at lots of players being unhappy with him. There’s the Malins story of being brought to tears during the Autumn by Jones ripping him a new one on the training pitch. Various staff quitting after only a few days/weeks & at least one senior coach threatening to leave if Eddie didn’t go.

Obviously there’s the question of journalist objectivity with some of this, but I’m pretty trusting of the likes of Alex Lowe & Chris Foy who have been reporting these stories. Hard to say exactly how tenable Jones’ position ultimately was. I’m pretty sanguine about it, because by the end I’d lost all faith in Jones’ schtick and I don’t think we’ve harmed our short term prospects by getting rid of him. We had regressed to the point that I thought we had no more than a punchers chance of success over the next 12 months anyway.

But having made this decision the RFU simply have to pay up to get Borthwick & the coaching team he wants. Whatever it costs.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:11 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:43 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:23 am

A near cert to be in the squad at least i'd say.

What other players might get a recall. Daley, Watson possibly Cole? And who might be left out. The Vunipola's, Tuilagi, Nowell?

Cole has been playing well but he's 35 now

Does age matter that much for a tighthead prop who's getting through as much work as his younger counter parts? I can understand the reluctance to build around Cole moving forward but the World Cup is 9 months away and we have issues at the scrum and a pretty young stable of tighthead props. If Will Stuart is indeed injured for the 6N do we go Sinckler and Heyes or do we bring in some experience?

yes, given the big delta to intl level and that he was looking well past his sell by date at that level when dropped. I accept he has had a prem renaissance.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:33 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:11 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:43 am
Cole has been playing well but he's 35 now

Does age matter that much for a tighthead prop who's getting through as much work as his younger counter parts? I can understand the reluctance to build around Cole moving forward but the World Cup is 9 months away and we have issues at the scrum and a pretty young stable of tighthead props. If Will Stuart is indeed injured for the 6N do we go Sinckler and Heyes or do we bring in some experience?

yes, given the big delta to intl level and that he was looking well past his sell by date at that level when dropped. I accept he has had a prem renaissance.

Was he looking past his sell by date or was it just the one game where the scrum struggled that he took the brunt of the stick for? From memory it was on Bok ball all our problems stemmed from, same as in the AIs. We knock on they turn the screw at the scrum. I don't remember any complaints about Cole being included in the squad at the start of the tournament.

His game time is now being managed and he's got a world class S&C coach (the same one that oversaw the Boks at said World Cup) working with him. Currently he's one of the best three tightheads we have available. Fits with the game we will likely want to play under Borthwick as well as helping at the scrum.

Personally I'd like to see us go one half Genge/Cole other half Marler/Sinckler. Clear message that, that's the plan. They can empty the tanks, doesn't really matter which way round. Marler and Cole to do the grunt work and then Genge and Sinckler to get more license to get stuck into the attack.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:55 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:33 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:11 am

Does age matter that much for a tighthead prop who's getting through as much work as his younger counter parts? I can understand the reluctance to build around Cole moving forward but the World Cup is 9 months away and we have issues at the scrum and a pretty young stable of tighthead props. If Will Stuart is indeed injured for the 6N do we go Sinckler and Heyes or do we bring in some experience?

yes, given the big delta to intl level and that he was looking well past his sell by date at that level when dropped. I accept he has had a prem renaissance.

Was he looking past his sell by date or was it just the one game where the scrum struggled that he took the brunt of the stick for? From memory it was on Bok ball all our problems stemmed from, same as in the AIs. We knock on they turn the screw at the scrum. I don't remember any complaints about Cole being included in the squad at the start of the tournament.

His game time is now being managed and he's got a world class S&C coach (the same one that oversaw the Boks at said World Cup) working with him. Currently he's one of the best three tightheads we have available. Fits with the game we will likely want to play under Borthwick as well as helping at the scrum.

Personally I'd like to see us go one half Genge/Cole other half Marler/Sinckler. Clear message that, that's the plan. They can empty the tanks, doesn't really matter which way round. Marler and Cole to do the grunt work and then Genge and Sinckler to get more license to get stuck into the attack.

I would agree with that, but would say that the main point here is more about what our alternatives are. Sinckler/Stuart are clearly our top-two and the open spot is if something happens to one of them. Cole might not be excellent at international level anymore, but the key issue is whether he's still a better playing than Heyes, especially given his greater experience and resilience at the top level.

If there was a RWC match tomorrow, then I'd have Cole. There's still time for Heyes to overtake (and he definitely has a higher ceiling), but right now, Cole's better and more reliable.

Puja

Wait a minute. Why has no one previously mentioned that Tigers’ S&C coach was with the Boks when they won the World Cup.

Cole's problem was that he wasnt doing enough outside of the scrum. His tackle count was low, he rarely carried and didnt hit enough rucks. He has actually improved in that regard since he was dropped.
I think right now he's a viable option. At least in the short term.
What are our options? Sinckler and Stuart as 1 and 2, then Heyes? I just wished Heyes was starting more and doing just a bit more to push his standing higher.
If we look a bit farther afield there are 2 very good consistent TH's that we could bring in, Schonert and Balmain. But they're not youngsters, neither are that flash in the loose and they would be starting from scratch at international level. Painter hasnt kicked on, Street is usually crocked, so too Collier, Schickerling isnt qualified, Hill is inconsistent. The other option is bringing Williams back. At least he has experience.

My only memory of Williams for England is him giving away dumb, Hill-esque penalties. Is that unfair? Is he still first choice for Exeter?

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:55 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:33 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:11 am

Does age matter that much for a tighthead prop who's getting through as much work as his younger counter parts? I can understand the reluctance to build around Cole moving forward but the World Cup is 9 months away and we have issues at the scrum and a pretty young stable of tighthead props. If Will Stuart is indeed injured for the 6N do we go Sinckler and Heyes or do we bring in some experience?

yes, given the big delta to intl level and that he was looking well past his sell by date at that level when dropped. I accept he has had a prem renaissance.

Was he looking past his sell by date or was it just the one game where the scrum struggled that he took the brunt of the stick for? From memory it was on Bok ball all our problems stemmed from, same as in the AIs. We knock on they turn the screw at the scrum. I don't remember any complaints about Cole being included in the squad at the start of the tournament.

His game time is now being managed and he's got a world class S&C coach (the same one that oversaw the Boks at said World Cup) working with him. Currently he's one of the best three tightheads we have available. Fits with the game we will likely want to play under Borthwick as well as helping at the scrum.

Personally I'd like to see us go one half Genge/Cole other half Marler/Sinckler. Clear message that, that's the plan. They can empty the tanks, doesn't really matter which way round. Marler and Cole to do the grunt work and then Genge and Sinckler to get more license to get stuck into the attack.

yes he was- and it wasn't just the scrum, but his lack of action round the park; I do remember a fair few grumbles about his being picked as it happens. In fairness he'd been thrashed by club and country for about a decade bar time out for a neck op.
But given I've now been told you are a Tigers fan, news indeed, I understand your passion for all things Dan, Guy, and Steve. And George.

Has he got a world class s and c coach- who oversaw the boks-? well I never .

fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:56 pm Cole's problem was that he wasnt doing enough outside of the scrum. His tackle count was low, he rarely carried and didnt hit enough rucks. He has actually improved in that regard since he was dropped.
I think right now he's a viable option. At least in the short term.
What are our options? Sinckler and Stuart as 1 and 2, then Heyes? I just wished Heyes was starting more and doing just a bit more to push his standing higher.
If we look a bit farther afield there are 2 very good consistent TH's that we could bring in, Schonert and Balmain. But they're not youngsters, neither are that flash in the loose and they would be starting from scratch at international level. Painter hasnt kicked on, Street is usually crocked, so too Collier, Schickerling isnt qualified, Hill is inconsistent. The other option is bringing Williams back. At least he has experience.

Sure, he has improved at club level. Not the same though. Maybe he's an option, but turning back to a prop who was struggling nearly 4 years ago doesn't exactly feel that helpful... it may be expedient I guess.

Cole's 50m sprint to charge down little Joe Simmonds was reason enough to select the big man.

p/d wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:06 pm Cole's 50m sprint to charge down little Joe Simmonds was reason enough to select the big man.

Indeed. If Banquo watches so little rugby that one scrum in a World Cup final is enough for him to not want Coley selected then one good effort such as this should be enough for him to win back the shirt. I sense a lot of churn in future EPS.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:16 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:06 pm Cole's 50m sprint to charge down little Joe Simmonds was reason enough to select the big man.

Indeed. If Banquo watches so little rugby that one scrum in a World Cup final is enough for him to not want Coley selected then one good effort such as this should be enough for him to win back the shirt. I sense a lot of churn in future EPS.

mea colepa

lolz

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63955885

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:16 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:06 pm Cole's 50m sprint to charge down little Joe Simmonds was reason enough to select the big man.

Indeed. If Banquo watches so little rugby that one scrum in a World Cup final is enough for him to not want Coley selected then one good effort such as this should be enough for him to win back the shirt. I sense a lot of churn in future EPS.

Indeed. When Anderson bowls an unplayable, no one discusses the shocker at the Gabba in 2017