Eng U20s 2023

[Epaminondas Pules]

It's not really about the list though. I doubt he'll even be on it for this tournament.

I even agree that lots of players you think are going to make it won't. Although if we're looking at wings Nathan Earle is probably a better example than Cato. He stood out a bit more for me.

Locks are a bit easier to spot imo though and would put money Chessum getting more than a few England caps.

Well see though

An early torn achilles and your career sets itself on a different pathway. Earle was exceptional at the JWC, went on loan, snapped his achilles and has never really caught up.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It's not really about the list though. I doubt he'll even be on it for this tournament.

I even agree that lots of players you think are going to make it won't. Although if we're looking at wings Nathan Earle is probably a better example than Cato. He stood out a bit more for me.

Locks are a bit easier to spot imo though and would put money Chessum getting more than a few England caps.

Well see though

That’s my point. If even those on the list fail to make it at such a high percentage what chance those who don’t… yet a lot are talking as if L. Chessum is nailed on to be a multi-cap test player.

I think Earle is a bit of an outlier given the severity of his injury whilst at Bedford. I was at the game and I’ve never seen players react in such a fashion. Given that and subsequent snippets on how bad it was, he was never going to come back as the player he was when he first broke through.

Aye. Frankly that he got back at all, let alone pushed towards England squad is amazing.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I think the amateur nature of English pathways is shown by the number of surnames that we recognise in the age groups. You wonder how much more time and energy a player with the right pedigree gets over someone, who might be a better talent, but doesn't have connections or name recognition.

Puja

Rugby does need to limit its reliance on the private school system.

How and in fact why and whats the level of reliance anyway? and tbh there are tons of players in the amateur game who havent been near a private school.

Plenty in the England squad not thru private schools, or only doe 6th form. Clubs have pretty vibrant youth sections too. I think a mixed system is ok.

This is a key aspect. There are a lot who get scholarships from state school to private based on potential and endorsement from the respective DPP. Joe Woodward is a prime example in the current U20s. He wasn't the only one from Leicesters academy to get a scholarship mind.

[Epaminondas Pules]

In my experience academies end up putting exponentially more players off rugby, (if not for life then at least for a few years) than they do generating Prem or international quality players. You are correct in that most state schools don't offer it or give any credence to rugby at all, and that means outside of the club environment at school ages the vast majority of players exposure to good coaching, game time and being able to develop is severely limited. The RFU are complicit in this. Academies are also heavily dominated by constantly coached private school players (certainly in the midlands) which also limits accessibility for others trying to get in. How the overhaul looks is not certain for me but the RFU have huge issues to address. The academies of Worcester, Wasps and now LI are being run by the RFU and none of those players have a club to aspire to (locally). The RFU will not sanction any developmental coaching outside of the academies for any of the thousands of other players that could or might be at academy level, not selected because of a bad game, covid, injury or weren't spotted at the original 5 minute selection process. There is so much untapped and undeveloped talent out there that the current system takes no account for.

Part of the problem with the Academies / DPP, is they'll highlight 5 or 6 (maybe more on rare occasions) that they think 'have it' from a pretty early age and concentrate on them. The rest effectively make up numbers. They get the SCC and coaching, but not to the same level as those identified in that 5/6. There's good numbers from our age groups who have been through the DPP / Academy setups and most don't have great things to say about it sadly.

[Banquo]

George Martin went to Fairfield Prep and Loughborough Grammar which is fee paying all the way.

Steward went to Norwich School which is private.

Porter came through in the Australia system so is completely pointless as an inclusion.

Don't know what your strike right is with the non-Tigers but you got Cole right he got picked up through the county system. Went to the same secondary school as Martin Johnson.

Dodged the point but hey. I was wrong on Steward apols, but I and the RFU have Martin going to Brooksby Melton college, with his bro going to Lufbra grammar?
Porter was included to show you can make it here without private schooling. I did look all those up on the RFU site. My point is a lot of top players did and do come through non private school routes.

Brooksby Melton replaced QE as the 16-18 college Tigers uses for its academy players. You'll find most of the recent graduates from the Tigers academy went to a college that specialises in agriculture.

Players certainly come through the non-private route but I'd still like to see more clubs and the RFU engaging with state schools to drive forward the game and bring more talented youngsters into the sport. Joe Marchant is a good example as he was accomplished in other sports (gymnastics being one) at a younger age before being tempted across to rugby.

So is that 'private school' or just another example of the mixed economy that actually exists? Either way, you still haven't answered the question, other than a vague wish list.

[FKAS]

Dodged the point but hey. I was wrong on Steward apols, but I and the RFU have Martin going to Brooksby Melton college, with his bro going to Lufbra grammar?
Porter was included to show you can make it here without private schooling. I did look all those up on the RFU site. My point is a lot of top players did and do come through non private school routes.

Brooksby Melton replaced QE as the 16-18 college Tigers uses for its academy players. You'll find most of the recent graduates from the Tigers academy went to a college that specialises in agriculture.

Players certainly come through the non-private route but I'd still like to see more clubs and the RFU engaging with state schools to drive forward the game and bring more talented youngsters into the sport. Joe Marchant is a good example as he was accomplished in other sports (gymnastics being one) at a younger age before being tempted across to rugby.

So is that 'private school' or just another example of the mixed economy that actually exists? Either way, you still haven't answered the question, other than a vague wish list.

It's an academy so not private but only used because of their offiliation with Tigers. Without the Tigers link you wouldn't find any of those guys heading there nor the sports department being close to what it was. QE (also not private) where the likes of Cole went was the Tigers predecessor to that. It's expensive to place those kids not at a private school already at a private school or who aren't going to continue at their current one at one so Tigers basically take over the rugby set up at a school. Brooksby being am agricultural college has a lot of land that can be used as pitches.

Sadly I don't have the answers otherwise I'd be working as a consultant for the RFU.

[Mr Mwenda]

Well from what I've seen of today's match is that the baby boks are giving England a good seeing to at the breakdown. Hopefully they tire but I wouldn't be surprised if mentally already on the plane home.

[Mr Mwenda]

Gave up with 30 seconds to go. England attacked all second half and lacked the skills and composure to finish. Boks brave in defence and interpreted the breakdown perfectly. Fair enough.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Yep. Breakdown was an utter arse handing! And then execution and decision making under pressure let us down badly! They should come off feeling that was winnable, because it was.

Absolute credit to the Boks defence and especially breakdown!

[fivepointer]

Disappointing end. Didnt score a 2nd half point despite having plenty of possession. Too many errors, poor continuity and too many obvious patterns of play which the Bok defence cottoned on to.
Chessum is the obvious standout in this group. CCS has raw athleticism but tries too many risky offloads, the starting props look really good and Cleaves has great feet.

[Puja]

I've been impressed by Alex Wills on the opposite wing as well. Looked very competent in everything and made good decisions, as well as having a nice turn of pace. Seems like another smart pick-up from Sale out of the collapsed clubs' academies.

Puja

[FKAS]

Breakdown was the weakness throughout for us. We really missed a natural openside. We were ponderous getting to the breakdown in attack and defence.