Trump

[Digby]

He's again made the conversation about himself rather than his policies, which politically is a good thing if you're having to spend billions on aid to farmers that shouldn't be needed in the first place. It's a good thing he inherited a growing economy, heaven only knows what he'd make of a recession, and if he faced a problem like Obama took over with the financial crisis they might actually have to remove him from office.

[Coco]

Well I am one lunatic, and just about every latino and "brown person" i know are as well. Youd be shocked at the amount of Latinos for Trump... you should look them up. If truly interested... look up #blexit too.

As of today I'd suggest Republicans are about to shoot both barrels into the one foot, reload and do the same to the other foot as they go after Roe Vs Wade. Though I'd have to concede I didn't think Trump could win through as the Republican nominee never mind win the presidency

But surely they're about to abandon hope of getting anyone but lunatics to vote Republican, and really, how many lunatics can there possibly be?

[Puja]

Well I am one lunatic, and just about every latino and "brown person" i know are as well. Youd be shocked at the amount of Latinos for Trump... you should look them up. If truly interested... look up #blexit too.

As of today I'd suggest Republicans are about to shoot both barrels into the one foot, reload and do the same to the other foot as they go after Roe Vs Wade. Though I'd have to concede I didn't think Trump could win through as the Republican nominee never mind win the presidency

But surely they're about to abandon hope of getting anyone but lunatics to vote Republican, and really, how many lunatics can there possibly be?

I'll bite - how come?

Puja

[morepork]

Blexit. Thread has gone full retard. UK brothers and sisters, look up Candice Owens for an example of this supposed exodus of black folk from progressive politics when she attempted to explain the positive tenets of National Socialism as it arose from the collapse of the Weimar Republic to an audience in your own green isles.

Blexit. JFC. What's the next conspiracy on the check list? White Genocide? This is Ben Shapiro territory ladies and gentlemen.

Fuck my arse with a claw hammer.

[Digby]

Well I am one lunatic, and just about every latino and "brown person" i know are as well. Youd be shocked at the amount of Latinos for Trump... you should look them up. If truly interested... look up #blexit too.

As of today I'd suggest Republicans are about to shoot both barrels into the one foot, reload and do the same to the other foot as they go after Roe Vs Wade. Though I'd have to concede I didn't think Trump could win through as the Republican nominee never mind win the presidency

But surely they're about to abandon hope of getting anyone but lunatics to vote Republican, and really, how many lunatics can there possibly be?

I'm in no way surprised to find many people have run across the drawbridge and having arrived safely in the castle state 'I'm here and safe now so raise the drawbridge, bollocks to everyone else trapped outside' it's that level of self interest which drives so much of the conservative vote, but on balance I can't see it being close to enough for Trump. Though again, I thought Trump would fail at every previous election

[Which Tyler]

I'm in no way surprised to find many people have run across the drawbridge and having arrived safely in the castle state 'I'm here and safe now so raise the drawbridge, bollocks to everyone else trapped outside' it's that level of self interest which drives so much of the conservative vote, but on balance I can't see it being close to enough for Trump. Though again, I thought Trump would fail at every previous election

Sorry, are we talking about ringfencing the Premiership again?

[Digby]

I'm in no way surprised to find many people have run across the drawbridge and having arrived safely in the castle state 'I'm here and safe now so raise the drawbridge, bollocks to everyone else trapped outside' it's that level of self interest which drives so much of the conservative vote, but on balance I can't see it being close to enough for Trump. Though again, I thought Trump would fail at every previous election

Sorry, are we talking about ringfencing the Premiership again?

Protectionism is always such a great look

[morepork]

#wexit. A social media movement fueled by Welsh people sick and tired of the dilution of their cultural values by English referees.

[Coco]

Well .. traditional socially conservative, family and religious values/beliefs for starters. The economy is doing well. People tend to forget or overlook that red states are well represented by hispanics, and further, most came here legally, had to wait in line and face the hardships that immigrants do. Many hispanics want the wall as much as the "mean bigoted white people" do. They are regular everyday working class people you know, and actually have a comparitively high rate of entrepreneurship. Its really arrogant how people view these wonderful people as less than or even helpless. Its the liberals that pander to them and many find it offensive. I dont blame them.

By the way.. I am in Southern California and see it firsthand.

Well I am one lunatic, and just about every latino and "brown person" i know are as well. Youd be shocked at the amount of Latinos for Trump... you should look them up. If truly interested... look up #blexit too.

As of today I'd suggest Republicans are about to shoot both barrels into the one foot, reload and do the same to the other foot as they go after Roe Vs Wade. Though I'd have to concede I didn't think Trump could win through as the Republican nominee never mind win the presidency

But surely they're about to abandon hope of getting anyone but lunatics to vote Republican, and really, how many lunatics can there possibly be?

I'll bite - how come?

Puja

[Puja]

Well .. traditional socially conservative, family and religious values/beliefs for starters. The economy is doing well. People tend to forget or overlook that red states are well represented by hispanics, and further, most came here legally, had to wait in line and face the hardships that immigrants do. Many hispanics want the wall as much as the "mean bigoted white people" do. They are regular everyday working class people you know, and actually have a comparitively high rate of entrepreneurship. Its really arrogant how people view these wonderful people as less than or even helpless. Its the liberals that pander to them and many find it offensive. I dont blame them.

By the way.. I am in Southern California and see it firsthand.

Well I am one lunatic, and just about every latino and "brown person" i know are as well. Youd be shocked at the amount of Latinos for Trump... you should look them up. If truly interested... look up #blexit too.

I'll bite - how come?

Puja

Okay, so leaving a lot to one side for a moment - how does a wall help?

Puja

[Coco]

A wall is open at its legal border crossings. It forces people to enter through a Port of Entry where they can then claim asylum, fill out paperwork, and wait for their asylum hearing.... just like everyone else has/has had to do. Thats not even taking in to consideration the human trafficking, drugs, and weapons that might not get across and it could give border patrol more of a chance at intercepting.

El_Camino_del_Diablo,_border_patrol.jpg

This desert gets upwards of 120 degrees f (48.89 degrees c) - people die being left to fend for themselves by coyotes (traffickers) after paying thousands of dollars to be brought to border. Its horrific. Then wonder why kids die once they finally get found and brought to nearest facility. Btw many drown trying to cross the Rio Grande.

220px-Border_barrier_near_IBM_9.JPG.jpg

This is how a lot of the border looks. Nothing but a vehicle barrier chained together if there is anything at all.

Border_Region.png

Our border and border crossings. Doesnt show the 330 ports of entry, sorry.

Well .. traditional socially conservative, family and religious values/beliefs for starters. The economy is doing well. People tend to forget or overlook that red states are well represented by hispanics, and further, most came here legally, had to wait in line and face the hardships that immigrants do. Many hispanics want the wall as much as the "mean bigoted white people" do. They are regular everyday working class people you know, and actually have a comparitively high rate of entrepreneurship. Its really arrogant how people view these wonderful people as less than or even helpless. Its the liberals that pander to them and many find it offensive. I dont blame them.

By the way.. I am in Southern California and see it firsthand.

I'll bite - how come?

Puja

Okay, so leaving a lot to one side for a moment - how does a wall help?

Puja

[Puja]

About 40-50% of illegal immigrants in the US came legally and then overstayed visas. Another chunk come through the Canadian border, airports, and sea borders. The best figures available show that about a third of the illegal immigrants to the US entered the country through the southern border, or about 3 million people. Note, that's not per year, that's in total.

Compare the scale of that "emergency" to the money that would be required to build a wall across the entire 2,000 mile US-Mexico border. The Office of Management and Budget recently quoted $24million per mile for a new stretch of fencing - not wall, fencing - which would be a cost of $48 billion for the whole border. That, of course, assumes that all bits of the border are as easy to build on as another (they're not, as lots are desolate and would require new roads to allow construction to even get there, others would require eminent domain purchasing of land, some are on river banks, etc) and that there would be no overrun (cause government projects *never* have cost overrun). Let's ignore both of those and say it's $48 billion, just for steel pedestrian fencing (which can be beaten by a stepladder, but never mind). Then let's look at upkeep - the current wall requires $800k per mile per year in maintenance, so if we extrapolate that to 2,000 miles (and assume that each bit is as easy to upkeep as the other, see above) and we end up with a $1.6 billion bill each year to keep it going. And this is assuming there will be no need to employ additional staff to patrol and that there will be no vandalism.

So being as kind as we possibly can with the figures, it's $48 billion upfront, with $16 billion every 10 years. To seal a border that provides 1/3 of your total illegal immigrants.

Don't you think that that money could be used more sensibly?

Puja

[morepork]

Traditional conservative/family/religious “values” are not synonymous with sound macroeconomic policy. If your priority lies with the former, then a justification for the expense of an arguably fiscally irresponsible border policy needs to be provided. Sorry Coco, I love ya, but this is farcical.

[Coco]

Possibly, but nothing is getting done. My own opinion is that a barrier with open legal crossing areas is a good start. The rest should be fleshed out in the process. Doing nothing is not an option and so far sanctuary cities have hindered the process at every turn as laws on the books are not being enforced and overstayers are able to continue to break the law while getting state and federal help in the way of housing, food, medi-cal, etc.

Frankly, I dont wish to change anyones personal opinions on my countrys immigration policies, but I do try to offer a look at why many of us living here have such opinions on the subject, especially those of us living in border counties. Unfortunatey media has diminished everything to "anyone wanting a wall is a racist". It is counterproductive and is meant to silence any civil conversations on the subject.

About 40-50% of illegal immigrants in the US came legally and then overstayed visas. Another chunk come through the Canadian border, airports, and sea borders. The best figures available show that about a third of the illegal immigrants to the US entered the country through the southern border, or about 3 million people. Note, that's not per year, that's in total.

Compare the scale of that "emergency" to the money that would be required to build a wall across the entire 2,000 mile US-Mexico border. The Office of Management and Budget recently quoted $24million per mile for a new stretch of fencing - not wall, fencing - which would be a cost of $48 billion for the whole border. That, of course, assumes that all bits of the border are as easy to build on as another (they're not, as lots are desolate and would require new roads to allow construction to even get there, others would require eminent domain purchasing of land, some are on river banks, etc) and that there would be no overrun (cause government projects *never* have cost overrun). Let's ignore both of those and say it's $48 billion, just for steel pedestrian fencing (which can be beaten by a stepladder, but never mind). Then let's look at upkeep - the current wall requires $800k per mile per year in maintenance, so if we extrapolate that to 2,000 miles (and assume that each bit is as easy to upkeep as the other, see above) and we end up with a $1.6 billion bill each year to keep it going. And this is assuming there will be no need to employ additional staff to patrol and that there will be no vandalism.

So being as kind as we possibly can with the figures, it's $48 billion upfront, with $16 billion every 10 years. To seal a border that provides 1/3 of your total illegal immigrants.

Don't you think that that money could be used more sensibly?

Puja

[Coco]

Traditional conservative/family/religious “values” are not synonymous with sound macroeconomic policy. If your priority lies with the former, then a justification for the expense of an arguably fiscally irresponsible border policy needs to be provided. Sorry Coco, I love ya, but this is farcical.

Its not farcical though. These are some of the reasons people are voting the way they do. Whether you think certain values are synonomous with macroeconomics or not... this is why more "brown black white purple polka dotted people" are voting this way. Not everyone thinks or feels the same and to say these reasonings or opinions are farcical is like saying some peoples opinions are less valid than others. Shame on you Porky. Youre better than that.

[morepork]

There is no such thing as an open legal border crossing across the length of the southern border. If 75% of the volume is coming through legal points of entry, what use is a wall in the middle of the desert? I had access to unemployment benefits and health care (for $300 a month) while on a green card. I never had to use the option, but if I did then that is as should be. We both know you can’t just rock up to a hospital without insurance under an H1, J1, or any other type of VISA, let alone being undocumented, so what welfare net is being specifically abused by people recently arrived from the south? COBRA is not accessible by individuals not originally sponsored by a US employer, so what is the conduit by which undocumented individuals are syphoning tax dollars? HINT: there isn’t one. You are focusing on the wrong kink in the administrative fence

[Puja]

Possibly, but nothing is getting done. My own opinion is that a barrier with open legal crossing areas is a good start. The rest should be fleshed out in the process. Doing nothing is not an option and so far sanctuary cities have hindered the process at every turn as laws on the books are not being enforced and overstayers are able to continue to break the law while getting state and federal help in the way of housing, food, medi-cal, etc.

Frankly, I dont wish to change anyones personal opinions on my countrys immigration policies, but I do try to offer a look at why many of us living here have such opinions on the subject, especially those of us living in border counties. Unfortunatey media has diminished everything to "anyone wanting a wall is a racist". It is counterproductive and is meant to silence any civil conversations on the subject.

It's a massively expensive start though, to ineffectively solve a problem that's actually quite small in the grand scheme of things. It would be cheaper and a million times more effective to spend the money as targetted aid in South America to reduce the problem at source, but it's much easier to sell a political narrative of "tough on immigration" than it is to suggest giving money to poor people and foreigners to make their lives better, even if the upshot is that they then wouldn't risk their lives to come to your country.

Puja

[morepork]

Traditional conservative/family/religious “values” are not synonymous with sound macroeconomic policy. If your priority lies with the former, then a justification for the expense of an arguably fiscally irresponsible border policy needs to be provided. Sorry Coco, I love ya, but this is farcical.

Its not farcical though. These are some of the reasons people are voting the way they do. Whether you think certain values are synonomous with macroeconomics or not... this is why more "brown black white purple polka dotted people" are voting this way. Not everyone thinks or feels the same and to say these reasonings or opinions are farcical is like saying some peoples opinions are less valid than others. Shame on you Porky. Youre better than that.

Yeah, I am pretty good. They are voting this way? Really?

Take snowflake out of it and present a sound business plan then. No opinion. Build a wall/enduring testament to idiocracy and let history decide. We can have our own Maginot line with LAX and JFK playing the role of the Ardennes. Again, not opinion, just common sense, which seems to be in short supply in this country at the moment.

[morepork]

Speaking of sound business plans....check out these mongs. "This is not Europe. We protect our borders". FFS:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48438032

The only one doing it right is the construction company that I'm sure is thrilled to receive a few million to erect a completely symbolic entity.

[Stom]

Possibly, but nothing is getting done. My own opinion is that a barrier with open legal crossing areas is a good start. The rest should be fleshed out in the process. Doing nothing is not an option and so far sanctuary cities have hindered the process at every turn as laws on the books are not being enforced and overstayers are able to continue to break the law while getting state and federal help in the way of housing, food, medi-cal, etc.

Frankly, I dont wish to change anyones personal opinions on my countrys immigration policies, but I do try to offer a look at why many of us living here have such opinions on the subject, especially those of us living in border counties. Unfortunatey media has diminished everything to "anyone wanting a wall is a racist". It is counterproductive and is meant to silence any civil conversations on the subject.

About 40-50% of illegal immigrants in the US came legally and then overstayed visas. Another chunk come through the Canadian border, airports, and sea borders. The best figures available show that about a third of the illegal immigrants to the US entered the country through the southern border, or about 3 million people. Note, that's not per year, that's in total.

Compare the scale of that "emergency" to the money that would be required to build a wall across the entire 2,000 mile US-Mexico border. The Office of Management and Budget recently quoted $24million per mile for a new stretch of fencing - not wall, fencing - which would be a cost of $48 billion for the whole border. That, of course, assumes that all bits of the border are as easy to build on as another (they're not, as lots are desolate and would require new roads to allow construction to even get there, others would require eminent domain purchasing of land, some are on river banks, etc) and that there would be no overrun (cause government projects *never* have cost overrun). Let's ignore both of those and say it's $48 billion, just for steel pedestrian fencing (which can be beaten by a stepladder, but never mind). Then let's look at upkeep - the current wall requires $800k per mile per year in maintenance, so if we extrapolate that to 2,000 miles (and assume that each bit is as easy to upkeep as the other, see above) and we end up with a $1.6 billion bill each year to keep it going. And this is assuming there will be no need to employ additional staff to patrol and that there will be no vandalism.

So being as kind as we possibly can with the figures, it's $48 billion upfront, with $16 billion every 10 years. To seal a border that provides 1/3 of your total illegal immigrants.

Don't you think that that money could be used more sensibly?

Puja

From what you say, would it not be a better option to spend more money on the border force and court system to adjudicate on immigration cases? As they seem rather stretched. More money and trained staff could help solve a lot of the problems you describe.

[Mikey Brown]

Possibly, but nothing is getting done. My own opinion is that a barrier with open legal crossing areas is a good start. The rest should be fleshed out in the process. Doing nothing is not an option and so far sanctuary cities have hindered the process at every turn as laws on the books are not being enforced and overstayers are able to continue to break the law while getting state and federal help in the way of housing, food, medi-cal, etc.

Frankly, I dont wish to change anyones personal opinions on my countrys immigration policies, but I do try to offer a look at why many of us living here have such opinions on the subject, especially those of us living in border counties. Unfortunatey media has diminished everything to "anyone wanting a wall is a racist". It is counterproductive and is meant to silence any civil conversations on the subject.

About 40-50% of illegal immigrants in the US came legally and then overstayed visas. Another chunk come through the Canadian border, airports, and sea borders. The best figures available show that about a third of the illegal immigrants to the US entered the country through the southern border, or about 3 million people. Note, that's not per year, that's in total.

Compare the scale of that "emergency" to the money that would be required to build a wall across the entire 2,000 mile US-Mexico border. The Office of Management and Budget recently quoted $24million per mile for a new stretch of fencing - not wall, fencing - which would be a cost of $48 billion for the whole border. That, of course, assumes that all bits of the border are as easy to build on as another (they're not, as lots are desolate and would require new roads to allow construction to even get there, others would require eminent domain purchasing of land, some are on river banks, etc) and that there would be no overrun (cause government projects *never* have cost overrun). Let's ignore both of those and say it's $48 billion, just for steel pedestrian fencing (which can be beaten by a stepladder, but never mind). Then let's look at upkeep - the current wall requires $800k per mile per year in maintenance, so if we extrapolate that to 2,000 miles (and assume that each bit is as easy to upkeep as the other, see above) and we end up with a $1.6 billion bill each year to keep it going. And this is assuming there will be no need to employ additional staff to patrol and that there will be no vandalism.

So being as kind as we possibly can with the figures, it's $48 billion upfront, with $16 billion every 10 years. To seal a border that provides 1/3 of your total illegal immigrants.

Don't you think that that money could be used more sensibly?

Puja

From what you say, would it not be a better option to spend more money on the border force and court system to adjudicate on immigration cases? As they seem rather stretched. More money and trained staff could help solve a lot of the problems you describe.

There do seem to have been numerous people that actually work in that field coming out and saying the same thing, but what do they know?

[Coco]

You are correct... we will have to see.

Traditional conservative/family/religious “values” are not synonymous with sound macroeconomic policy. If your priority lies with the former, then a justification for the expense of an arguably fiscally irresponsible border policy needs to be provided. Sorry Coco, I love ya, but this is farcical.

Its not farcical though. These are some of the reasons people are voting the way they do. Whether you think certain values are synonomous with macroeconomics or not... this is why more "brown black white purple polka dotted people" are voting this way. Not everyone thinks or feels the same and to say these reasonings or opinions are farcical is like saying some peoples opinions are less valid than others. Shame on you Porky. Youre better than that.

Yeah, I am pretty good. They are voting this way? Really?

Take snowflake out of it and present a sound business plan then. No opinion. Build a wall/enduring testament to idiocracy and let history decide. We can have our own Maginot line with LAX and JFK playing the role of the Ardennes. Again, not opinion, just common sense, which seems to be in short supply in this country at the moment.

[morepork]

Trump Steaks
Trump Airlines
Trump University
Trump Vodka
Trump Taj Mahal
The Wall.


Se a pattern? Anyone nailing their colours to this supreme idiot's mast needs to fucking think on.

[morepork]

This cunt just keeps on giving. Hijack the income of American consumers to wrestle the narrative to immigration, and damn the torpedoes.


Coco...sweet jesus this is a clown show. There is elitist, there is uninformed, and then there is the immediate family of the terminally unaware trying desperately to pot ray elite, all in the name of a medieval wall peppered by legitimate ports of entry. I used to think Berlusconi the most comical head of state in contemporary history, but the armory being given to Orange Jesus gives him the edge in the fuckwit scale of leadership. I'm embarrassed by way of my citizenship (yes, I am one of you now), Are you not?

[Mikey Brown]

I can’t imagine how much more disgusting of a person he could become that anyone considering getting off the train at any point is currently still on it. He is the perfect embodiment of bigoted entitlement and disregard for the lives (or quality of life) of anyone that can’t directly benefit them.

It’s fucking gross and depressing but maybe it’s necessary at some stage for people to see it all this blatantly for what it is? It’s just such a shame that the perceived (and largely questionable) gains in key areas like border security, taxes, the economy, crushing the rights of minorities etc. are deemed worth it to so many people.